Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:33 pm

Sir Sam wrote:

Really? Mercedes are notoriously known for having VERY expensive parts here(to which I can attest). The only upside to new Mercedes parts, is that you can still order 30-40 year old parts, if you are willing to wait for them to be shipped from dusseldorf or wherever they ship from.

AMEN BROTHER!!!! :lol:

Uffe · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:23 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Actually, if you really take care of an engine, gas or diesel, it can go far beyond what you can imagine. I’ve seen gasoline engines go well-over 300,000 miles without a rebuild or overhaul. And I’ve seen diesels hit the 1 million mile mark. A Saab from the Northern Midwest (United States) just went over a million miles, and Saab gave him a brand new car. The million mile car is now in a museum. There are plenty of old Mercedes 300D's in the Million Mile Club verified with the original engine and without an overhaul. I’ve heard of several Dodge Cummins owners going over 1 million miles. I’ve known one guy personally in Deming, NM who had a 1998 Dodge Ram 12V inline 6 Cummins who rolled over 1 million miles. I thought the truck was going to fall apart, but the motor kept going. Diesels are still new to North America and have not has the opportunity to be on the road long enough to reach 1 million miles. People who buy VW diesels aren’t driving them 30,000 miles a year. Give the VW Jetta another 10 years and you might start seeing them show up with 1 million miles. With synthetic oils, by-pass filters, better fuel supplements, various aftermarket components, better educated people, and with the new popularity of a diesel driven world, I suspect that diesel engines will continue to rise to the million mile mark. Diesel engines last longer because Diesel fuel is a lubricant and assists the oil circulating through the sump, block, and heads. Gasoline, however, breaks down oil. Any piston seal blow-by or valve seal leakage will cause the oil to break down and leave critical metal components to rub against each other. This is why I like Diesels, they are more efficient. This is also why biodiesel is so important. The biodiesel is the best known lubricant and cleaner on the market, and has been for over 100 years.

I wholeheartedly agree that taking good care of your engine will keep it running much longer than many others which haven't been kept in such a good condition always. I have some remarks to your other points, however.

Diesel will also break down your oil. Anything from the exhaust system will crap that oil in no time. Why do you think so many people have problems with the EGR valve and wants to get rid of it?

Diesel fuel has lubricating properties? As much as gasoline has. Diesel is assisting oil lubrication? Not true. Diesel breaks down the oil just as gasoline does, and metal parts form in the oil which rubs against everything, just like in a gasoline car. Why do you think we have oil filters?

Diesel is not some god saving power. The main reason why diesel cars lasts better is because the engines are built tougher. The compression ratio of a diesel engine is far greater than a gasoline car, most likely 1.8:1 or even 2.2:1. This is one of the reasons why diesel engines blocks are built in cast iron. Another reason is the higher torque output which requires stronger materials.

Diesels ARE more efficient because of higher temperature burns and also higher compression ratios. In addition to that diesel fuel contains more BTUs than gasoline AND diesel weighs more per liter than gasoline. Glad we don't pay per unit of weight but by unit of volume.

Actually when Rudolf Diesel designed his engine he was not going for an engine to burn petro-diesel but for an engine which would run on many alternative fuels. I am sorry that we cannot use this potential of the diesel engine properly because of the auxillary systems around the engine can't handle the more aggressive types of fuel.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

ATXKJ wrote:

Well - I'd like to see Reflex's data - now I don't argue that a Chrysler study would probably remain confidential - however a Military study wouldn't.

Bingo. Any study funded with US tax dollars is public information, unless there is determined to be a national security reason for not sharing it. I hardly think the durability of engines while running bio-diesel rises to the level of national security information that must be classified (unless the results were in fact really positive, in which case Haliburton might complain).

To be blunt, many of the anti-biodiesel comments here are half baked. People confusing running straight waste veggie oil with bio diesel. People confusing poor quality bio harming injectors with all bio being bad for injectors. People conflating bio attacking the seals on older engines with bio doing the same on all engines (note, ls fuel does the same thing).

Poor quality biodiesel is a problem, as is bio that has not been stored in clean containers or has been allowed to sit too long. The same is true for regular old dino-diesel. And bio-diesel is absolutely a problem for seals in engines that are still fitted with natural rubber components. But folks, it ain't an evil plot by those nasty environmentalists to destroy your injectors and void your warranty. There are a hell of a lot of VW Jettas and Passats driving around with 100,000+ miles of B99 or B100 through them doing just fine. I've ridden in a couple of the darn things.

A legitimate criticism of bio-diesel is economics, where it does cost more to produce than dino-diesel. A 2nd would be overall environmental effects... bio made with waste veggie oil or cannola comes out pretty well. Bio made from palm oil shipped in from Brazil does not. And the ridiculous subsidies our government rains down on agriculture makes it a mess to figure out anyway (though I'd note I'd rather subsidize farmers than oil companies).

If you prefer not to run bio in your Jeep, more power to you. I, however, do it and love it. I want to see our dependence on foreign oil reduced, overall US fuel economy improved, and CO2 emissions dropped. Bio-diesel is far from perfect, but it to me it is better than running Saudi-oil derived diesel and sticking a patriotic bumper sticker on your rig.

UFO · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:40 pm

Threeweight, you've echoed my sentiments EXACTLY. Unless Reflex wants to identify the mechanisms involved with how biodiesel will shorten an engine's life, it's just rhetoric. It's a blanket statement based on all sorts of prejudice, none of which can be backed up. People have been running B100 in all types of diesel vehicles for years with no detrimental effects. The lubricity of biodiesel extends pump life, and quality biodiesel will not break down engine oil and is just as stable as dino fuel.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:02 pm

When the Government followed the parameters determined by Ralph Nader for air bags, people under 165 lbs, mostly women were killed by air bags. :!:

When the Auto companies got together and set the new standard and told our Government what it should be, people under 165 lbs, mostly woman were no longer killed by air bags :!:

The auto companies had an incentive, dead people do not buy cars :!:

Since the Governments of the Western World don't know anything about biodiesel and the manufactures of Diesel Injection Systems do, the manufactures need to get off their collective butts, set the standard for the purity requirement and tell our DISTINGUISHED ELECTED OFFICIALS what to write it into law. :idea:

TO HELL with the oil companies, they want every drop of fuel coming from them and no other source :!:

If we could put genetically engineered bacteria into land fills and turn garbage into oil, they would fight it and generate the same crap they do against biodiesel :!:

Our Diesel Engine Manufactures need to get off their collective butts and draft CETAINE STANDARDS such as a 55 Cetaine Min as well and get our DISTINGUISHED ELECTED OFFICIALS to write that into law as well. :idea:

Like I said before, TO HELL WITH THE OIL COMPANIES and their wining :!:

Steve

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:29 pm

True Biodiesel raises Cetaine. I do not know or care if unrefined WVO does. I do run Biodiesel blend through my CRD but have no plans to run unrefined WVO through it. I will let the DEAD TREE HUGGER singer song writers and people who could not pass High School Chemistry like most of the News Reporters do that.
Do I care I care what the source of the grease or vegetable oil is that is refined into true Biodiesel is, not really. It can be used French fry grease, sewer grease, or waste grease from restaurants, as long as they use the process developed by George Washington Carver

I will use it :wink:

Steve

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:31 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

Reflex.

For once I have to agree with you on B100 :shock:

But I don't know about cutting the engine's life in half :wink:

My son-in-law till a few months ago worked as a heavy mechanic for the local municipal transite authority. The mayor and director if the transit authority desided to go GREEN and started using B100. I'm not sure but I think they were Detroit diesels and they bought a extended warranty on the engines

When injectors and other fuel system componets started failing and after reading the fine print it voided the extra warranty

So now it's costing lots of GREEN but they are still using it :roll:

Our tax dollars at work :oops:

Joe

Sounds like those two need to be replaced next election. First off, if they'd wanted to try B100 and run the risk of voiding the engine warranty if something went wrong on their own POV's is one thing, but to do it with city property without checking all the possible legal ramifications first is plain stupid. Second, obviously neither of them bothered to check or ask anyone, including Detroit Diesel and the bus manufacturer, IF this was covered under warranty, or if any percent blend of biodiesel was covered. Third, switching over the whole fleet in one fell swoop, instead of running a trial with one or two vehicles first to see if there were going to be any problems. And finally, obviously no one read any basic literature on biodiesel use which would have told them that in an older vehicle that has burned a lot of regular dino over the years they'd be looking at flushing a lot of gunk out of the fuel system, which at the least would have necessitated more frequent filter changes, and at the worst would have resulted in needing to change out seals and breaking crud loose that could damage pumps and injectors.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Uffe - I am guessing that either the environment is worse where you are at or Mercedes aren't built the same, but here its very very common to see Mercedes on the road, with the original engine, between 500k and a million miles. In fact, many owners don't even consider the engines broken in until 250k miles. A friend of mine owns one at 300k miles and it still runs perfectly, no rebuild needed. Of course I'm reffering to the diesel ones, I know nothing of their gas ones. Also, Cummins trucks have a great reputation, and several friends of mine own those for their businesses, they run for hundreds of thousands of miles without complaint. Perhaps in Europe, due to the abundance of diesel options, there are more crappy diesel engine designs available(80's VW Golfs for instance), while in the US its typically an upscale option, and as a result we get higher quality engines on average.

Secondly, the study I reference may be published somewhere, I really don't know where I'd look it up. The friend of mine performed it in 2005, but he was a contractor not a military member, and he really has no idea what they do with the results of these engineering studies after he's finished with them. You are correct that they do environmental testing on engines, although this paticuliar case was not done in that fashion, the engines were not even in a vehicle, and while they do that type of testing, its not typically all at once as that would not allow you to determine the causes of failure.

Finally, everything I have been told and read has said that one reason diesel engines fail less often is due to the fact that diesel is not a solvant, and as a result does not break down engine oil when it contaminates it. I have been told that this is the reason why oil changes in diesels are 2-4x as long as they are in gas engines. This is a major difference as compared to BD, which is a solvent, and is part of why BD engines need oil changes on the same schedule as a gasser. Part of the evidence of support of this is right in this thread, namely that BD will eat up rubber seals, wheras regular diesel will not. If I am misinterpreting this somehow, let me know.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Joe Romas wrote:

My son-in-law till a few months ago worked as a heavy mechanic for the local municipal transite authority. The mayor and director if the transit authority desided to go GREEN and started using B100. I'm not sure but I think they were Detroit diesels and they bought a extended warranty on the engines

When injectors and other fuel system componets started failing and after reading the fine print it voided the extra warranty

So now it's costing lots of GREEN but they are still using it :roll:

Our tax dollars at work :oops:

Joe

Could you tell us which transit authority? Here in Portland, the local transit swapped their buses over to 5% bio after extensive testing and upgrading seals/hoses on older engines. Six months later everything is working great.

Of course, I've read many diesel fleet operators are having the same problem (injector failure) due to running low sulfur diesel with its lesser lubrication than old-fashioned diesel blend.

I'm a little dubious of finding B100 in quantities high enough to supply a municipal transit fleet for any major or mid-sized city. To get 5% in a high enough quantity, Portland had to lock in an exclusive contract with a refiner. A fleet of 50 transit buses, running hundreds of miles a day, at 7 or 8 mpg, times 365 days a year, is a hell of a lot of B100.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Reflex wrote:

Finally, everything I have been told and read has said that one reason diesel engines fail less often is due to the fact that diesel is not a solvant, and as a result does not break down engine oil when it contaminates it. I have been told that this is the reason why oil changes in diesels are 2-4x as long as they are in gas engines. This is a major difference as compared to BD, which is a solvent, and is part of why BD engines need oil changes on the same schedule as a gasser. Part of the evidence of support of this is right in this thread, namely that BD will eat up rubber seals, wheras regular diesel will not. If I am misinterpreting this somehow, let me know.

I've always heard diesel longevity is due to 1) the engines being built much more heavily than gas engines, and 2) the engines operating at much lower RPM than gasoline engines (meaning moving parts don't move as much and therefore do not wear as quickly.)

UFO · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:03 pm

No manufacturer has used "rubber" in their fuel systems for nearly 20 years. And even if they did, how will that cause an engine to wear out in "half" the time? Just because biodiesel has "solvent" properties, that doesn't mean it causes engine oil to break down. Reflex, if that was a concern, people burning biodiesel would see that in engine oil analyses - and they aren't.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:24 am

UFO, where do you get your bio from? If it’s not homebrew, what distributor and what supplier? I think my two distributors are getting theirs from Denver and one from Cheyenne.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:53 am

dieselenthusiast wrote:

UFO, where do you get your bio from? If it’s not homebrew, what distributor and what supplier? I think my two distributors are getting theirs from Denver and one from Cheyenne.

Theres alot fo Blue sun biodiesel around colorado, though I know there are a few others out there brewing it up.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:22 am

Sir Sam wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

UFO, where do you get your bio from? If it’s not homebrew, what distributor and what supplier? I think my two distributors are getting theirs from Denver and one from Cheyenne.

Theres alot fo Blue sun biodiesel around colorado, though I know there are a few others out there brewing it up.

Here’s all I could find for Colorado. Is there another site other than the official site of the National Biodiesel Board to find locations that sell bio?

Acorn Petroleum
400 S Sante Fe Ave
Pueblo, CO 81003

Acorn Petroleum
529 S Sahwatch
Colorado Springs, CO 80903

Bartkus Oil Company
3501 Pearl Pearl St.
Boulder, CO 80301

Chief Petroleum
2808 N. Nevada Ave
Colorado Springs, CO 80907

Chief Petroleum
301 S. 10th St.
Colorado Springs, CO 80904

Colorado Petroleum
4080 Globeville Road
Denver, CO 80216

Cox Oil Co.
555 E. 8th St.
Greeley, CO 80631

Denver Biodiesel Cooperative
4207 Delaware Street (alley)
Denver, CO 80216

Hill Petroleum
6291 W 58th
Arvada, CO 80002

ProCo Pump & Drilling Supply
16500 S. Golden Rd.
Golden, CO 80401

Sapp Bros.Denver
7120 E 49th Ave
Commerce City, CO 80022

SHOCO Oil Company
5135 E. 74th Ave
Commerce City, CO 80022

The Catherine Store
15783 Highway 82
Carbondale, CO 81623

TJs Express
804 Denver Ave
Fort Lupton, CO 80621

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:49 am

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Sir Sam wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

UFO, where do you get your bio from? If it’s not homebrew, what distributor and what supplier? I think my two distributors are getting theirs from Denver and one from Cheyenne.

Theres alot fo Blue sun biodiesel around colorado, though I know there are a few others out there brewing it up.

Here’s all I could find for Colorado. Is there another site other than the official site of the National Biodiesel Board to find locations that sell bio?

Acorn Petroleum
400 S Sante Fe Ave
Pueblo, CO 81003

Acorn Petroleum
529 S Sahwatch
Colorado Springs, CO 80903

Bartkus Oil Company
3501 Pearl Pearl St.
Boulder, CO 80301

Chief Petroleum
2808 N. Nevada Ave
Colorado Springs, CO 80907

Chief Petroleum
301 S. 10th St.
Colorado Springs, CO 80904

Colorado Petroleum
4080 Globeville Road
Denver, CO 80216

Cox Oil Co.
555 E. 8th St.
Greeley, CO 80631

Denver Biodiesel Cooperative
4207 Delaware Street (alley)
Denver, CO 80216

Hill Petroleum
6291 W 58th
Arvada, CO 80002

ProCo Pump & Drilling Supply
16500 S. Golden Rd.
Golden, CO 80401

Sapp Bros.Denver
7120 E 49th Ave
Commerce City, CO 80022

SHOCO Oil Company
5135 E. 74th Ave
Commerce City, CO 80022

The Catherine Store
15783 Highway 82
Carbondale, CO 81623

TJs Express
804 Denver Ave
Fort Lupton, CO 80621

check out blue sun at:
http://www.gobluesun.com/

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:15 am

Truth be told, I haven't used any of the locally available B20 for quite some time, as the fuel quality at the two stations within a reasonable driving distance (20 miles one way) has frankly went to crap. I checked back at one of them just before Christmas and the quality hadn't improved any - sample I pulled in my glass jar was cloudy and opaque straight out of the pump, and had glycerin, water, and other junk settle out of it in just a couple of hours.

That's the real reason the engine manufacturers get nervous about anything over B5 - with all the independent biodiesel producers and only recently something resembling an overall standard for fuel quality being adopted, in their eyes it's still a crapshoot as to what people will end up running thru their engines.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:44 am

retmil46 wrote:

Truth be told, I haven't used any of the locally available B20 for quite some time, as the fuel quality at the two stations within a reasonable driving distance (20 miles one way) has frankly went to crap. I checked back at one of them just before Christmas and the quality hadn't improved any - sample I pulled in my glass jar was cloudy and opaque straight out of the pump, and had glycerin, water, and other junk settle out of it in just a couple of hours.

That's the real reason the engine manufacturers get nervous about anything over B5 - with all the independent biodiesel producers and only recently something resembling an overall standard for fuel quality being adopted, in their eyes it's still a crapshoot as to what people will end up running thru their engines.

Excellent point, perhaps a point that wraps up this entire discussion. Biodiesel, in quality form, is probably some great stuff. But the consistency and supply is everything but stable. Seriously, based upon my phone calls, I’d almost say that there are less distributors of biodiesel today then there were 1 year ago. Within my 300 mile radius, this is true. Ethanol is becoming a problem as well. Although the quality of ethanol is much more stable, the lack of corn is stalling the refineries. In the state of Illinois, I heard that they have stopped building ethanol plants, saying it just isn’t profitable.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:19 am

Quote:

I heard that they have stopped building ethanol plants, saying it just isn’t profitable.

How can that be with all the tax dollars I sent them!!

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

onthehunt wrote:

Quote:

I heard that they have stopped building ethanol plants, saying it just isn’t profitable.

How can that be with all the tax dollars I sent them!!

They are having trouble securing water rights since the last batch of them wiped out the water table for several towns that permitted them. Water costs have severely impacted profitability for ethanol.

dgeist · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:21 am

I've had my 05 CRD since early 06 and have used LSD, ULSD, B20, and B100 at varying times and here are my observations:

- LSD smells the worst when burned, gets the poorest fuel economy of all of them in the CRD, but runs a little smoother than ULSD (although the efficiency could have just been a new engine without break-in)

- B100 varies the most. I've had tanks that got significantly higher than average mileage and significantly lower than average mileage. I have to suspect the source of the oils there. It also started my only real fuel problems (gelled in lines and filter). granted, that was my own dumb fault for using B100 in March. It does, however, make the engine run REALLY quietly.

- ULSD is pretty good generally. It gets better mileage than B100 or LSD. The engine runs a little rougher than any of the other fuels, but is the most consistent (across locations and brands)

- B20 gives the best milage. It also runs almost as smooth as B100. It's also more palletable for corporate types that shy away from the number 100. It's also 18 cents cheaper than ULSD per gallon at the commercial oil company that sells it retail across town. It's less likely to completely dissolve my paint than B100.

I use B20 whenever I can. I have no fear of it gelling (as I've had no problems here down to 20F). It makes me feel good about using resources that would otherwise be organic waster (it's poultry-based) and I feel it's probably a little better for the engine than ULSD (quiet == less harsh rubbing). Occasionally, I'll use B100 in the summer months if I want to feel extra crunchy about my ecological fuel choice.

Dan

P.S. Moderators, don't we have a forum for alternative fuels discussion? Should this thread not be moved there?

Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

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