I don't think anyone, including myself, has any problem with your line of reasoning. My only point is that when someone asks flat out if there are problems, not pointing out the warranty and manufacturing situation and potential issues is deceptive at best. People such as yourself can make your own informed decisions, but the key word there is 'informed', if you are not given all the information, then you are not making an informed decision. How you weight that data is up to you, obviously.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

We are way past the point where it is an experimental fuel. I would think it's obvious why it's not more prevalent; the government, and the petroleum and automotive industries have a stake in the status quo, and make it very easy to scare people with rumors of risk. And you seem to have hopped on board when you continue to claim it causes engine wear with no evidence in support and plenty in opposition to your position. That's not "devil's advocacy", it sounds more like ideology.

_________________
'05 Liberty CRD B100, SEGR - SOLD

'01 Beetle TDi B100, EGR delete
'83 Mercedes 240D B100, no EGR

--- SEGR Builder ---

The government is actively promoting biofuels, especially ethanol. This is at both the federal and state level. Could they do more? Possibly. But claiming they are hindering them is ludicrous at best, IMO.

The petroleum companies are just distributers. The places I see BD most commonly are at big gas stations, I've seen it at Shell and Texaco around here. The thing to remember is that they own the distribution infrastructure, and most of them could care less if they are getting their oil from Saudi or from farmers, they will mark it all up the same. One can fault them for not *encouraging* the market, but I have yet to see any real evidence they have hindered it, why would they, they know better than anyone else that oil is a finite resource...

And once again, you don't have to agree with me about potential problems, but like I said, there are warranty concerns and specific concerns by the product manufacturers, not voicing those concerns whether or not you feel they have any real merit is deceptive at best. One can always put in a qualifier such as "I personally have not had any problems with my injectors at all despite using B100 for the past year, however Bosch does not warranty theirs for more than B5" and you have covered all your bases and given the relevant information.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Reflex, you are again making up imaginary facts which have no basis on reality. By continually giving misinformation about BD(ie lies) you take credibility away from any good advice or information which you can provide on this forum or elsewhere.

Again What is the "known" issue with the injectors on our CRDs and BD?

Please provide the link to BD being a solvent of engine metal.

Please provide the link to Bosch Doubting the efficacy of quality BD in their products.

VW warranties their engines for B100, guess who makes their fuel pumps and injectors. http://www.volkswagen-environment.de/bu ... xis_92.asp

Scania warranties their engines for B100, guess who makes their fuel pumps and injectors.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05 ... pports.htm

Cummins now warranties their engines for B20, guess who makes the fuel pump and injectors.
http://www.cummins.com/cmi/content.jsp? ... d=1&feed=1

Peugeot, Citroen, and PSA all warranty up to 30% BD, Guess who makes most of the injection systems for them.

Manufacturers have never stated that BD itself is harmful to their products, but rather the until recently, nonexistent fuel quality standards have been a deterrent to their support of the product. Bosch cannot warranty B100 until there is a universally accepted quality standard for BD. If it's bad. it's bad. No matter in what quantity, 5% poison kills just as well as 100% poison. They would never approve even five % if they thought it would in any way harm any part of their engine. If a person uses good judgment in choosing where they buy fuel(whether BD or DinoD) their vehicle will have a much longer life.

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.

nursecosmo - I'm pretty sure the Bosch issue has been brought up several times on this forum, this is where I learned about it. I asked my dealer what the official warranty for the Jeep covers and they said B5, if they detect more than that they can void warranty for fuel system related issues. Whether they'd follow through or not I don't know, but that was the statement. Anyone who doubts this can ask the manufacturers themselves, its not that difficult.

And you kinda made my point below, you stated that several systems are warrantied up to B30, which once again means that the B100 many are championing here is not considered a sure thing. As pointed out many times here, there are many levels and not always certification for every level, manufacturers are not confident in the process as it exists today. Withholding that information is deceptive.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Reflex, The question in the initial thread was not whether BD would void the warranty, we all know that it will, so will installing a lift, doing the ORM, EHM, fixing the lift pump, etc.. The question was whether it will harm the engine. All evidence supplied shows that BD will not harm anything in the engine except possibly the fuel filter if DinoD has been used previously in the tank. Multiple peer reviewed studies from reputable universities, government agency's and engine manufactures have been presented in this thread as well as the auto industry's own position on the subject. This is called science. You on the other hand have repeated things that you have heard in the media, or that some grease monkey at the local auto shop thought about it or what your girlfriend with a major in zoology and communications has said about its practicality in a jeep liberty. You have claimed to be privy to "secrete studies" by the military and by Chrysler which if revealed would cause them to go bankrupt. I am not trying to foster the "religion" of Biodiesel but I do not like to see people mislead with untruths. The only place that I have seen deception in in your posts.

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.

I'm talking about BIODIESEL. If there was promotion, you would see more diesels on the road. Instead we have more restrictive emissions laws targeted specifically to keep diesels off the road. And more restrictive fuel standards that seem to drive manufacturers to create biodiesel incompatibility, such as the newest VWs that may not be able to use biodiesel to flash the newest catalysts.

Ethanol is a red herring. That is a gift to Monsanto to grow GM corn, and to GM so they can claim "greeness" by putting a flex-fuel badge on their vehicles. It's a boondooggle that creates more greenhouse gas emissions than if these same vehicles burned gasoline.

_________________
'05 Liberty CRD B100, SEGR - SOLD

'01 Beetle TDi B100, EGR delete
'83 Mercedes 240D B100, no EGR

--- SEGR Builder ---

Not real organic, but growed in cow dodo and side dress with fertilizer

_________________
06 Silver Liberty
EHM/SEGR
Fumoto Oil Drain
No rock climbing
No mudding
Hangs behind my
motorhome on tow bars. Semi-retired and still learning.

I have always said that I am just sharing info I have. I also said flat out that I can't source them so take them as you wish. I trust my sources but I don't expect others to, but simply clamming up is doing a disservice. Weight it as you feel appropriate, since you feel I am not credible, then ignore it entirely, its your call. But no, I'm not going to shut up about it. The comments about my gf typically are in relation to biofuels as an agricultural solution to environmental issues, not in relation to BD in the CRD, since she's hardly an engine expert. Keep it in context. And finally, the thread was about BD myths, not about lift pumps, ORM's, etc. Not everyone here chooses to do multiple or any mods, some may just be wondering whether or not that station with B20 would be harmful.


While I agree that our laws are unfair towards diesels in general, that has nothing to do with BD, those laws have been tightening since long before BD became popular or common. The US has been fairly anti-diesel since the mid-80's at the least.


Fully agreed, I've never disputed this. Crop based fuel solutions peroid are a boondoggle, but ethanol is clearly the worst.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Great information! I hope this thread never gets deleted, there is a lot of good information here.

_________________
2015 Ram Ecodiesel/Big Horn/4x4/Quad Cab
2016 Arctic Fox 22G/Onboard 2500 LP Cummins Onan Generator/160 Watt Solar Panel

I took the road less traveled. Now I'm LOST.

I appreciate the additional information about doing the ORM, EHM, and fixing the lift pump, etc. These ideas are significant to share. I think most threads start out as generalizations. As the thread progresses and enormous amounts of feedback is implemented, then we can broaden the subject matter. These LOST members (who give me information) will be the individuals or group that I rely on. They have been the ice breakers, paving the way to a more efficient engine. Let’s face it, we all have a passion for diesels. People go to these forums to find a support group, share knowledge, share experiences, and to help others. Warranties did not keep my CRD out of the shop nor did warranties solve my problems. This is exactly why I traded the CRD for a gasser. I’m considering buying a CRD again, not to have an extended warranty, but to enjoy a Jeep diesel due to LOST CRD owners who have taken the time, patience, and research to work through these problems.

_________________
2015 Ram Ecodiesel/Big Horn/4x4/Quad Cab
2016 Arctic Fox 22G/Onboard 2500 LP Cummins Onan Generator/160 Watt Solar Panel

I took the road less traveled. Now I'm LOST.

Yep, just plain old American economics, as in charge as bloody much as you can get away with.

Last week - demand down, refineries operating at 83% capacity, crude oil inventory up by 2 million barrels, gasoline inventory up by 1.5 million barrels, distillates (diesel) relatively unchanged.

Result? One small FINA refinery has an unplanned shutdown, and the traders on Wall Street use this as an excuse to run the price of oil to $101/barrel, gas and diesel prices at the pump jump 20 cents inside of a week.

Seems a remarkable coincidence that the rapid upward spiral of fuel prices started about the same time they changed the law such that the Securities and Exchange Commission has no oversight over electronic trading of oil, gas, and energy futures, so that traders can short energy futures to their heart's content.

Just good old economics to allow the oil companies to sell 25% of the output of the Alaska pipeline overseas for a higher price (and profit), then tell us gas prices have gone up because of the high price of imported oil.

Just good old economics to allow them to bring in a tanker of foreign biodiesel, add 1% domestic dino diesel, get a $1/gallon tax credit out of our tax money, then sail it to another country for sale - net effect is we're exporting domestic diesel.

Just good old economics to give the oil companies an extra 10 billion in susidies in the '05 energy bill, in addition to the billions they already get, at a time they're setting records for profit levels.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Be careful there Retmil, you are letting your logic and cynicism get in the way of pure profits! Ya gotta love that even tho the Enron house of cards came tumbling down, people are STILL being screwed by them. The removal of that oversight was a gift to the oil and energy industry by the lobbyists paid by Enron (and blessed by GWB and lots of business-loving republicans) and has had FAR reaching results.

Notice how the price of LPG has skyrocketed in the last couple of years? LP is a by-product of the refining process, it's desired, but not as much as the gasoline or diesel... And the price has tripled in the last 3 years, most of that happened 2 years ago when all of a sudden, all the futures contracts started being bought up. That drove the price through the roof overnight during the winter... Until it was discovered that 2 mid-level manager / trader types at BP were the ones behind the purchases. They were ACTUALLY trying to corner the LPG market, and came extremely close to doing it. Why were they caught? Not b/c they were violating any trading practices, no. Of course not. Cornering the market couldn't be illegal at all, that would only create a monopoly and remove ALL competiton, but it would be GREAT for corporate profits!

No, they were caught b/c BP noticed the money was being taken from accounts that they weren't supposed to be taking money from. If BP hadn't noticed the cash transfers, ALL of the LPG would now be owned by BP.

Yea, oversight isn't needed at all.

Enron: Don't ask why.

There are some interesting points above, but it helps to look at the gas situation from a global perspective.

China, India and other countries are using (and demanding) more and more fuel (e.g., gas, coal, etc.). India even designed a car for $2,500. A lot of people will buy this car and begin driving (i.e., demand for gasoline will be even higher).

If companies can get a higher price for their product oversees, than they should take it. We do live in a free market society.

We could generate more supply in this country if we were allowed to drill domestically in new areas, but that has been frowned upon. We can't even build new refineries.

If we could increase domestic supply and refining capabilities, then the price may drop.

I am not so sure that depending on the govt. to fix prices is the best approach. It sounds nice, but in reality could have dire consequences.

I read somewhere that if you took the average price of gas in the mid 70's and added 2% per year (for inflation), the price of gas would be about $3.80 per gallon. Again, not sure if this is true, but it does put the current price into perspective.

_________________
2005 Limited CRD

Not true. If we opened up the Pacific Coast and the coast of Florida, along with the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, any new production would not come on line for at least a decade. Not going to do very much good for gas prices in the short term, and in the long term this new production will be overwhelmed by global demands. That, of course, leaves aside the environmental costs (what does a view of oil derricks do for property values along the coast of California? An oil spill for tourism in Florida?)

http://www.earthscape.org/r1/maj02/img006_360x240.jpg

On the refinery question, please share what law is preventing new refineries from being built. Sure, there is local opposition to some from private citizens (that damned democracy thing), but a refinery that is well-sited won't run into that problem. The reality is the US oil industry was shutting down refineries in the late 90's, and in some cases shipped their equipment overseas for use in emerging markets.

Now, in a global, free market environment this may be fine if your goal is to maximize profit for shareholders. In terms of United States policy, which should place the welfare and well being of the nation, its citizens, and its future first, it sucks. Particularly when the federal government then gives tax breaks to the oil industry in a time of record profits, while diverting $$ for alternative fuels and cleaner technology into dead-ends like ethanol and "clean coal".

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Limited
Mopar engine, transmission, transfer case skids
245/70/16 Michelin Latitude X-Ice (winter)
235/75/16 Firestone Destination ATs (summer)
Thule roof rack, cargo box
V6 airbox mod
Flowmaster 50 2.5 inch muffler
Edge EZ module (set for fuel economy)
SEGR
TDIWagonGuy CCV filter
B99 (summer), B20 (winter)

Clean coal can and will work. The US is the Saudia Arabia of coal.

Wind and solar are great, improving all the time, but they will not replace the baseload capacity coal provides in the short term.

We will not turn coal "OFF" any time soon.

I do not know what can make the price of gasoline drop overnight. Govt. controls? We could try it. I bet most people would be unpleasantly surprised by the results.

The energy question is very interesting. It seems a lot like wise investing, do not put all your eggs in one basket.

Investing - do not own only one stock - very risky.

Energy - do not rely on only one fuel - very risky.

Energy diversity is the best approach, but it will take time to get there and patience is a virtue.

_________________
2005 Limited CRD

Increse domestic supply? With the stroke of a pen, you could have that extra 25% from the Alaska pipeline heading south overnight.

Increase refinery capacity? Last week, national refining capacity was only running at 83%. As was pointed out, in the 90's the oil industry shut down 50 refineries because they had overbuilt capacity in the 70's and 80's, and as the GAO reported the decision to shut them down was purely business to tighten supply and drive up prices.

Price contols? No thanks, but there does need to be some level of oversight and ground rules in effect - even a basketball game needs a referee.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Being the Saudi Arabia of coal is like being the Afganistan of poppies. Yah, we could use it all, but there are enormous costs that go along with it. Like bulldozing the tops of mountains into stream beds in West Virginia, sulfur emissions eating the native american petroglyphs off rocks here in the Columbia Gorge.

I do not disagree that we won't wean ourselves off coal any time soon, but it doesn't make any sense to invest hundreds of millions of public money in trying to clean up an inherently dirty fuel. Mercury emissions, sulfur dioxide, CO2, the list goes on.

Put that money into fuel that isn't based on 17th century technology.

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Limited
Mopar engine, transmission, transfer case skids
245/70/16 Michelin Latitude X-Ice (winter)
235/75/16 Firestone Destination ATs (summer)
Thule roof rack, cargo box
V6 airbox mod
Flowmaster 50 2.5 inch muffler
Edge EZ module (set for fuel economy)
SEGR
TDIWagonGuy CCV filter
B99 (summer), B20 (winter)

As was pointed out, our fuel prices are almost exactly the same as those in Europe, Japan and Korea once you take the taxes off of all of them. That strongly suggests that the price is due to the market price of oil, not conspiracy theories about refineries. BTW, many of the refineries that were shut down in the 90's were old designs not able to comply with modern environmental regulations, they were compensated for by increasing capacity at more modern facilities(as they are doing at the largest one in Texas right now, with most of the new capacity going to diesel production, thankfully). Furthermore, most refineries are independent of oil companies and have a fixed markup, which makes it unlikely they would close down to 'drive up prices' since they would be reducing their profit potential by reducing thier capacity, a higher price does not benefit a refinery.

Not saying the oil industry has no culpability, when prices caved in the late 90's the response by the industry was to end most exploration for new sources, which is the real reason prices have gone up so badly combined with increasing demand from the third world.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Boy oh boy, you sure do know everything don't you? How about some links to some corroboration hmm? Oh, right, you never post any of that, we are just supposed to take your word for it, or ask Dork Cheney to investigate if there is any collusion among his golfing buddies.

The concept of ANY refiner having a "fixed markup" is just as unbelievable as, oh Santa Claus being real, and delivering in July this year. Why would they limit themselves as a business?

If you ran a business selling widgets, and you were the sole determinant for the selling price of those widgets (if they ARE independent as you CLAIM) then why not get as much as you possibly could for each and every unit? Would you decide "No, I'm not going to get 100% profit on these, I'll just have to settle for 20% even though the market MUST have what I'm selling"

Be realistic. They WILL reduce capacity to "stabilize" the prices (read that as continue watching them rise) just like OPEC WILL cut production to also "stabilize" those same prices so they can afford their 50th Bentley. After the 2004 / 2005 hurricane seasons, the refineries that were operating, were burning the candle at both ends and running at 98% capacity for MONTHS. Thus disproving the oil executives that had previous-to-the-storms stated that refineries couldn't be run at full capacity for months, it just wasn't possible to run them over 85% for any length of time. Yea... Don't think so. Once the broken ones started coming back online, they have all been slowly dialing back the outputs, CAUSING the price skyrocketing. Demand WORLDWIDE since 2001 has not risen 300%, so why have prices both per barrel, and per gallon? The devil is in the details, and can be found by following the billions in profits that weren't there before 2001.

As for the refiners being "independent" of the oil companies... Yea, I'm not buying it. They may LOOK independent, if you only look at the name on the sign out front, but with mazes of shell corporations and holding companies that exist on paper only... Can anyone really hope to answer that question? Doubtful.

A perfect example of this is the power grid. FPL (Florida Plunder and Loot) owns generation capacity in several states. They *claim* to not own any transmission equipment beyond the local level, those big lines are "owned" by another company. Yet FPL has an 11 BILLION dollar "equipment depreciation fund" that is being paid into to cover the depreciation of the resale value of large-scale equipment that was damaged during the hurricanes. At the same time, their own "investment group" that actually is a separate company that owns FPL the power company... Also has a major stake in the transmission company that FPL supposedly doesn't own.

Yea, the "power company" might not own them, but the paper "investment company" does own them.

See what I'm getting at? Its all about shifting the costs and showing more profits. Accounting voodoo designed to avoid taxation, and at the same time, opens the potential for bookkeeping black holes. The wonderful humanitarian company of Exxon Mobil has lots of these "wholly owned subsidiaries" or other types of child corporations. Some operate rigs and drill... Others operate pipes and ships and transport... Others refine, still others sell it to the shlub with the Escalade. Yet ALL are paying shareholder dividends up the stream into the big 40 billion pot. And they aren't "fixing" their markup just to be nice. They are adjusting it as they see fit to avoid potential legislation, and maximize those profits.