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 Post subject: Should I Stop Using 5W-20?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:27 am 
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http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/USEPA5W-20.pdf

My '07 says to use 5W-20, but the document in the link above explains that manufacturers only use it so they can get better scores on their emissions certifications and fuel economy test vehicles. Plus the last time I got my oil changed at the dealership I complained because the invoice said 5W-30 was used instead of the recommended 5W-20. They said they had this debate with Chrysler and they were told that either one was fine to use.

Another guy did some research and found this:
* Using 5w-30 will not void your warranty - This is direct from Chrysler and is supported legally as it will not harm your engine
* 5w-30 will offer slightly better protection against engine wear
* 5w-20 will offer slightly better fuel economy in the short term
* Implementation of 5w-20 in North America is driven on fuel economy and emission reduction (not related to smaller engine tolerences)
* Countries outside North America do not recommend and in some cases do not allow the sale of 5w-20
* The use of 5w-30 in Europe is not related to the CRD model per se (5w-30 is recommended for the gas model too)
* The use of 5w-30 in Europe is not related to speed or climate

Anyway I'm going back to 5W-30. I would rather have better engine protection then a fraction more mpg's.

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Last edited by JohnnyCash on Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Done Using 5W-20
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:39 am 
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JohnnyCash wrote:
http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/USEPA5W-20.pdf

My '07 says to use 5W-20, but the document in the link above explains that manufacturers only use it so they can get better scores on their emissions certifications and fuel economy test vehicles. Plus the last time I got my oil changed at the dealership I complained because the invoice said 5W-30 was used instead of the recommended 5W-20. They said they had this debate with Chrysler and they were told that either one was fine to use.

Another guy did some research and found this:
* Using 5w-30 will not void your warranty - This is direct from Chrysler and is supported legally as it will not harm your engine
* 5w-30 will offer slightly better protection against engine wear
* 5w-20 will offer slightly better fuel economy in the short term
* Implementation of 5w-20 in North America is driven on fuel economy and emission reduction (not related to smaller engine tolerences)
* Countries outside North America do not recommend and in some cases do not allow the sale of 5w-20
* The use of 5w-30 in Europe is not related to the CRD model per se (5w-30 is recommended for the gas model too)
* The use of 5w-30 in Europe is not related to speed or climate

Anyway I'm going back to 5W-30. I would rather have better engine protection then a fraction more mpg's.


Engine protection has nothing to do with viscosity. Engine protection has to do with film strength. For example, Amsoil 0W30 has better film strength and additive package than Amsoil 5W30. Something to think about. The 07’s have a different All temp, that is the reasoning for the change from 5W30 to 5W20.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Done Using 5W-20
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:46 am 
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The 07’s have a different All temp, that is the reasoning for the change from 5W30 to 5W20.[/quote]

What is All temp?
So 5W-30 is not going to protect my engine better than 5W-20?
I'm totally confused.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:08 am 
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I agree with dieselenthusiast his recomendation of Amsoil is dead on I have used 0W-30 for years first in my '95 Dakota 4x4 and when I bought my KJ that is what they recomended. I have synthetic from bumper to bumper and have used it since 1974. As much as many enjoy bad mouthing Amsoil I have found normally 2 reasons one is sour grapes they can't buy direct and get pissed off. Or secondly, refuse to believe that Amsoil is a superior product, or live by the premise of a nickle chasing a dime. They would rather save 20 cents a quart buying Mobile 1 from Wally World rather then purchase a product with a 30 year track record. Amsoil pioneered the industry they were the first to step up to the plate. So if you would rather go to 7-11 for your health insurance, buy the other products. {This is Sarcasm} in case you don't rocognize it.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:03 am 
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In a good quality oil, either grade is fine and you probably won't see any difference in any way using either weight.

The MFG can't dictate what weight you use per your MFG warranty unless they provide the product to you. They also can't dictate what your change interval is either unless they change it for your free of charge. If a part fails, it is the MFG's responsibility to prove why if they don't want to cover it. If you have an engine failure they have to prove the cause if they suspect bad oil. The Magnusson-Moss act covers that sort of thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Should I Stop Using 5W-20?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:06 am 
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JohnnyCash wrote:
http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/USEPA5W-20.pdf
* The use of 5w-30 in Europe is not related to the CRD model per se (5w-30 is recommended for the gas model too)
[/b]


What does the CRD have to do with it? The CRD specifies 0W-40 or 5W-40.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:24 pm 
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I have to disagree slightly. Viscosity is a resistance to flow. The higher the viscosity, the slower the flow rate. In extreme cases where the viscosity is too high for any given pumping device - the oil will not make it to the area needed. This can cause all kinds of damage. In automoitve terms the minor difference between these weights shouldn't be too much of an issue.

But back in the early days of LOST there were forum topics about oil pump failures from using an oil that was too thick. Or at least that is how I remember the old boards.

Film strength sure is important, but so is Viscosity.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:37 pm 
Food for thought:

an '07 Ram, Grand Cherokee, or Commander with a 3.7 specifies 5w30...the '07 Liberty specifies 5w20. Engines are identical.

either way, you aren't gonna hurt anything, but yes, 5w20 is being driven by fuel econmy...which you won't notice, because KJs are gas hogs anyway. It's 6 in one, half a dozen in the other...but I'd assume that the Ram/WK/XK spec 5w30 because the engine has to work harder to pull the heavier vehicle (and WKs and XKs and Rams with 3.7s are huge terds, too)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:44 pm 
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Unless you get it in writing from Chysler about 5w-30 not voiding your warrenty(when you should be using 5w-20) I wouldn't switch,it might come around and bit you in the butt later.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:58 pm 
In his situation, though, the DEALERSHIP put 5W30 in it...so it'd fall back on the stealership if his engine failed.

Why does he keep going back to the dealership, anyway, after all the negative things he's said? Why not go to Jiffy Lube?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:08 pm 
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ThunderbirdJunkie wrote:
In his situation, though, the DEALERSHIP put 5W30 in it...so it'd fall back on the stealership if his engine failed.

Why does he keep going back to the dealership, anyway, after all the negative things he's said? Why not go to Jiffy Lube?
God knows what jiffy lube would put in it,probally ATF :shock: .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:15 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
ThunderbirdJunkie wrote:
In his situation, though, the DEALERSHIP put 5W30 in it...so it'd fall back on the stealership if his engine failed.

Why does he keep going back to the dealership, anyway, after all the negative things he's said? Why not go to Jiffy Lube?
God knows what jiffy lube would put in it,probally ATF :shock: .


Do yourself a favor and NEVER EVER go to Jiffy-Lube.

If your manual for your model says 5w20 that's what you should use. 5w30 won't hurt it I'm sure, but 5w20 is apparently preferred for the 06-07 models as I understand. Find another dealer.

just my opinion.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:33 pm 
tjkj2002 wrote:
ThunderbirdJunkie wrote:
In his situation, though, the DEALERSHIP put 5W30 in it...so it'd fall back on the stealership if his engine failed.

Why does he keep going back to the dealership, anyway, after all the negative things he's said? Why not go to Jiffy Lube?
God knows what jiffy lube would put in it,probally ATF :shock: .


I'd be mad if they put Dexron 3 in it...only ATF+4 for MY crankcase!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:30 am 
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All Temps has to do with cold weather pump ability, pour point, and vehicle temperature. I am running the Amsoil 0W30, but you can also run the Amsoil 0W20. Both are going to be more fuel efficient, lubricate just as well and at longer intervals than what the factory has to offer. Like I’ve said before, viscosity really doesn't matter, it's how well the oil is formulated. To compensate for lower viscosity oil companies have improved the anti-wear additives. If you can get the same wear with a lower viscosity, then use a lower viscosity. I run the Amsoil 5W30 in my Dodge Cummins, which many people, including one dealership, said would destroy my engine. They believe that viscosity is important in the process of lubrication, which is false. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:25 am 
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Quote:
They believe that viscosity is important in the process of lubrication, which is false.
It actually is(sort of),improper viscosity leads to inproper oil pressure,which leads to oil not getting to the right places or not enough oil getting to the right places.Inproper viscostity also reduces the "oil buffer" zone between the bearings and crankshaft which will toast your bearings after awhile,the same goes for the camshaft bearings,and hydrualic lifters.

Remember those older Castrol GTX oil comercials that showed the engine internals? That's what I'm talking about.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:05 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
Quote:
They believe that viscosity is important in the process of lubrication, which is false.
It actually is(sort of),improper viscosity leads to inproper oil pressure,which leads to oil not getting to the right places or not enough oil getting to the right places.Inproper viscostity also reduces the "oil buffer" zone between the bearings and crankshaft which will toast your bearings after awhile,the same goes for the camshaft bearings,and hydrualic lifters.

Remember those older Castrol GTX oil comercials that showed the engine internals? That's what I'm talking about.


Most multi-viscosity engine oils contain special types of additives. In the context of synthetic oils, these oils do not rely as much on special Viscosity Index Improver additives simply because they experience little permanent viscosity loss. This is why the Amsoil 0W30 is such a great oil. Lubrication is built into the additive package and is primarily dependant on film strength. There is no required regulation concerning the levels of shear stability for engine oils, however, testing shows that lower percentages results with an oil that is more shear stable and will retain its viscosity much better during operation. Like tjkj2002 said, improper viscosity, especially in the use of multi-viscosity oils does play a role. As the oil passes through the engine, these molecules are permanently sheared or torn apart over time, causing the additive to lose its viscosity-contributing advantages, which reduces the oils ability to maintain its higher number. Oil goes through a lot of abuse and will reach extreme heat and extreme friction in the oil pump, cam shaft, and piston rings. Since viscosity varies inversely with temperature, its value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is determined. With petroleum oils, viscosity is now commonly reported in centistokes. A thin oil has a lower number and flows more easily, while thick oils have a higher number and are more resistant to flow. The standard unit used to measure viscosity is the centistokes. The centistoke rating is converted into the SAE weight designation. Multi-weight or multi-viscosity oils (for example: 5W-30) are made by adding polymers to oil. The polymers allow the oil to have different weights at different temperatures. The first number indicates the viscosity of the oil at a cold temperature, while the second number indicates the viscosity at operating temperature. For example: At cold temperatures, the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up, the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C, the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-viscosity oils is to think of a 5W-30 as a 5 weight oil that will not thin more than a 30 weight would when hot.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Thanks for the information. I'm still not sure what oil to use though, and I don't understand why the '07 is supposed to be 5W-20 while all the other years are supposed to be 5W-30.

The only thing I know of that's different on the '07's is variable valve timing I believe.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:03 pm 
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JohnnyCash wrote:
Thanks for the information. I'm still not sure what oil to use though, and I don't understand why the '07 is supposed to be 5W-20 while all the other years are supposed to be 5W-30.

The only thing I know of that's different on the '07's is variable valve timing I believe.


Buy your oil of choice that is either a 0W30, 5W20, or a 5W30 and be happy with it. Heck, run Cheap pennzoil, it really doesn't matter unless if you plan on keeping your KJ forever. I'm keeping mine for the long haul, so it's worth it for me to run the best oil.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:04 am 
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JohnnyCash wrote:
Thanks for the information. I'm still not sure what oil to use though, and I don't understand why the '07 is supposed to be 5W-20 while all the other years are supposed to be 5W-30.

The only thing I know of that's different on the '07's is variable valve timing I believe.


The only change was between 2006 and 2007 was the CAFE fuel consumption calculation that is used to give consumers an idea of what their vehicle will return in MPG's. The change dropped the MPG rating on the liberty enough that Chrysler approved the use of 5W-20 as a bandaid to help boost the MPG figures on the SUV and save some face with their Corporate Average Fuel Economy rating.

Trust me, while we might disagree on the importance of oil qualities on these boards. We all agree that using 5W-30 will not ruin your engine. Keep up on your oil changes and regular preventative maintence and life will be very good for you and your KJ.

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