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 Post subject: My CRD can tow your Prius to the junk yard!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:07 pm 
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My son sent me this link, I have been saying this for years: http://www.newsweek.com/id/138808 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:55 pm 
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I thought I read that they have a 10 year warranty on the batteries in the Toyotas?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:43 pm 
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I've been wondering about this for a while, good article.
I know the hybrids suffer getting awful MPG's @ highway speeds and in cold weather like our diesels, but I imagine a replacement battery and the hazardous disposal of it offsets some environmental and financial gain if you keep them long enough.

"Toyota dealer wanted to charge him $3,900 to replace the battery on his 2001 Prius, which had 350,000 miles on it... Before he had a chance, though, his Prius had a brownout." :oops:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:49 pm 
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I guess not. But I think the fear-speak that you have to have an electrical technician replace the batteries is also a load of horse pucky. What is the battery pack for a Mercury Mariner / Ford Escape? Try about 120 d-cell size NiMH batteries, wired in series and parallel to generate something like 300VDC. While I agree it wouldn't be the easiest job out there, it IS possible to build your own packs, and any custom battery shop can do it for you too.

What is a battery pack? It is made up of 3 basic specifications - Output voltage, output amperage (either total or amp-hours) and physical form factor. In this case, each d-cell size battery would contain somewhere around 3 amps of power, at 1.2v. So it is simple math to match the desires of the car to the number of batteries. More amps (from the D, instead of like a C-cell) means more run time. Like a bigger fuel tank. Higher voltage means faster acceleration or a higher top speed. The battery controller has limits on what it can accept, and must be sized to the motor. Again, simple math.

The hardest part is wiring up each individual D-cell. Usually they are strung out inside lengths of heat-shrink tubing, and sealed together. Then the ends of each string are hardwired to the next one. The limitation in size of the battery bay determines the shape of the pack.

How do I know all this? I've been researching replacing the 240k mile old engine in my minivan with an electric powerplant, and possibly a smaller battery pack with a charging system connected to a diesel generator. A small diesel genset is available for about $2000 that I think would do nicely. Its a 5kw powerplant, so it can produce a fair bit of juice. In this case, the batteries would act as a short-term capacitor for the power, and the generator would almost directly power the wheels.


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 Post subject: Insane car battery hack
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:58 pm 
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:lol: UPDATED missing from youtube all the sudden for some reason here's another link.>>> http://www.gagfilms.com/Carbatteryhack.html

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Last edited by blake1827 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Insane car battery hack (no longer available)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:03 pm 
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blake1827 wrote:


Just tried to view and there was a note saying the video was no longer available

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:37 pm 
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geordi wrote:
I guess not. But I think the fear-speak that you have to have an electrical technician replace the batteries is also a load of horse pucky. What is the battery pack for a Mercury Mariner / Ford Escape? Try about 120 d-cell size NiMH batteries, wired in series and parallel to generate something like 300VDC. While I agree it wouldn't be the easiest job out there, it IS possible to build your own packs, and any custom battery shop can do it for you too.

What is a battery pack? It is made up of 3 basic specifications - Output voltage, output amperage (either total or amp-hours) and physical form factor. In this case, each d-cell size battery would contain somewhere around 3 amps of power, at 1.2v. So it is simple math to match the desires of the car to the number of batteries. More amps (from the D, instead of like a C-cell) means more run time. Like a bigger fuel tank. Higher voltage means faster acceleration or a higher top speed. The battery controller has limits on what it can accept, and must be sized to the motor. Again, simple math.

The hardest part is wiring up each individual D-cell. Usually they are strung out inside lengths of heat-shrink tubing, and sealed together. Then the ends of each string are hardwired to the next one. The limitation in size of the battery bay determines the shape of the pack.

How do I know all this? I've been researching replacing the 240k mile old engine in my minivan with an electric powerplant, and possibly a smaller battery pack with a charging system connected to a diesel generator. A small diesel genset is available for about $2000 that I think would do nicely. Its a 5kw powerplant, so it can produce a fair bit of juice. In this case, the batteries would act as a short-term capacitor for the power, and the generator would almost directly power the wheels.
To bad that all other hybrids are not running NiMH "D" cell batteries,most are running lithium Ion now.It would cost you big $$$$$$ to have a battery place build you a battery pack for a hybrid.Not to mention cause far more polution than a gasser just from the batteries alone.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:58 pm 
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And exactly where did you get the idea that production cars were running Lithium Ion? That is still in development here, and only *might* be in some of the next-gen Toyotas in Japan... We have only gotten the older tech here so far. Last time I checked, the Lithium packs were far too expensive for the production cars. The plug-in conversions are using them, but that is the primary reason why they are $10k - The batteries are too expensive still. I'll agree that they are the future, b/c the power-to-weight is much better than NiMH, you get much longer runtime in full-electric mode with more amperage in the battery bay. But at 3-5 times the cost... No thanks. Which is what Toyota has said so far, AFAIK.

BTW: The hybrid system in the Ford Escape / Mercury Mariner? It's a direct drop-in from Toyota. Ford didn't develop squat.


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 Post subject: The Tesla uses Lithium Ion
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:14 pm 
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But it costs around $90. NiMh cells can be purchased online but having to cough up enough for 120 D size will be cashy. Some NiMh manufactures will put a bigger package around a sub C and sell it as a D. Better follow geordi's recommendation and go by amp specs so you don't buy a bunch of air in the can.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:19 pm 
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Yea, I've seen stuff like that, like a D-cell size shell that anyone can slot a AA or C cell into, for emergency power. But considering the amp output, I doubt it would even power a maglight for long.

BTW, from hybridcars.com faq:

How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the carmaker.

Battery toxicity is a concern, although today's hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.

There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:02 pm 
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There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
Found about 50 or so Pruis batteries failing for no known cause just by using google,I'm sure there is many more battery failures that are being covered up.

Quote:
Starting in 2004 to the current models, the standard Prius battery is a Panasonic Metal Case Prismatic Module. Prior to 2004 and as early as 2000 the battery used was a Panasonic Plastic Case Prismatic Module. The first generation was sold only in Japan. Of the 70,000 sold a small but significant number of vehicles had problems with the battery pack. Furthermore, the battery pack was so large it took up the entire space between the trunk and the cabin. This led to changes in the Generation II models whose stacks were significantly smaller and far more reliable.



And from this article it seems many are replacing there batteries that Toyota has began to become concerned about reliability and loosing money from dealership repairs.

Quote:
Toyota Warns After Market Prius Battery May Void Warranty
Autos – Prius owners already enjoy fuel economy above the industry average, thanks to its rechargeable battery system. The Toyota Prius has long been considered the standard hybrid vehicle, but that isn't stopping owners from pursuing after market options which might have an unintended side effect: void the car's warranty.Prius owners already enjoy fuel economy above the industry average, thanks to its rechargeable battery system. The Toyota Prius has long been considered the standard hybrid vehicle, but that isn’t stopping owners from pursuing after market options to improve mileage including replacing the standard lithium battery with a $9995 battery from A123Systems, a move which could push fuel economy over 100 mpg.

Toyota, however, isn’t keen on the new battery as it could cause unforeseen consequences, namely the frying of the Prius’ electrical system which could void the car’s warranty.

A123Systems has already begun taking orders for the battery with expected delivery to begin in July. When driven in the 30-40 mile range, the battery should help Toyota Prius owners get over 100 mpg, more than doubling the car’s current limit. The new battery would be a plug-in model too.

“We don’t recommend customers modify our vehicles,” said Bill Kwong, a spokesman for Toyota’s U.S. sales unit in Torrance, California. “It wouldn’t automatically invalidate the warranty, but if they put this in and it fries the electrical system, for example, obviously that would not be covered.”





Quote:
Prius Battery
In older Prius models there was a lot of concern about the viability of the Prius battery. They were often needing to be replaced and the replacement costs were extortionate and running into the thousands of dollars.

Newer Prius models (since 2005) have a vastly improved battery that comes with a 5 year warranty. The new Prius battery has also been designed to be cheaper than its predecessor thus bringing back trust for the Hybrid vehicle.

The Prius battery is designed to last the lifetime of the vehicle and given that Toyota cars are renowned for their durability and longevity then this could be a very long time. Toyota have lab data showing the Prius battery can do 290,000km of normal driving with no lessening of the battery’s performance.


Quote:
Since 2001 I have participated in too many Prius internet groups. Therefore I claim to speak with some authority on the subject of HV battery life. If anyone on Earth has yet abandoned an otherwise functional Prius because of facing a $4000 battery replacement, that news has not reached me.

A number have been replaced under warranty by Toyota, but they have not said how many. Reports on the internet lead me to guess within the range of 1/1000 to 1/100. The new model Prius had a major battery redesign, and while it has not been flawless, its failure rate appears to be lower.

Might they start failing in droves tomorrow or next year? Yes, but it would come as a great surprise to many who follow the subject quite closely.

It is certainly true that the retail cost of the battery has not decreased since 2001 as many predicted at the time. A major factor in this is the 4-fold increase in the price of nickel metal since then. Sorry about that; but the demand for stainless steel has grown rapidly and this is a commodity in tight supply. We’ll see how lithium battery prices develop, in the next few years I suppose.

Toyota was reported in the media to be offering rebuilt batteries at discount (I linked that article here about last September?), but nothing heard from them about it since. Just a guess, but it may be that they have not had many takers.

Several people known to me have replaced their HV batteries with units recovered from crashed salvage Prius. As I have said too many times already, Prius crash out of the fleet faster than they fail. Thus used HV batteries are always available to those who search. Price $400-$1200, up to you to negotiate a warranty etc. But the excess availability actually means that many of them have gone into homebrew electric vehicles. This has become the Prius battery ‘daughter industry’, not pack rebuilding.

I believe that battery cell renovation was pioneered by Andy Roberts in Virgina, but he unfortunately died and we lost many of his skills. More recently Bob Wilson in Alabama has stepped up, and I have every reason to expect that he will be a leader in the ‘cottage industry’ of Prius battery renovation.



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 Post subject: What I learned about Toyota long ago
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:55 pm 
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Toyota has the best Spin Control Department in the industry. True they have been known to Take Care of Their Customers, but they are not perfect, there stuff does break and fail and they do their best to cover it up. I have coached friends and family to get satisfaction out of Toyota, but others have been left out to dry. They are banking a lot on the Prius, but as diesel owners we all knew their 65mpg was a total scam and in reality it was 42mpg. My Wife's 99TDI gets better mileage than that and it is a larger, roomier, safer car.
One reason the News Media does not rip Toyota is the same reason they don't expose the politicians they vote for for minor offenses, they voted for Toyota with their paychecks and a lot of them own Toyota. If the problems with an given Toyota were a major safety or reliability issue, they would cover it, but Toyota gets away with more than any of the U.S. car companies.
The one reason I don't own Toyota is that I have driven them and worked on them in the past. I find the rental units to be a disappointment to drive. When I was in the repair business, I was glad some one was paying me for my time to fix them.

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned about Toyota long ago
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:51 am 
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warp2diesel wrote:
Toyota has the best Spin Control Department in the industry.


I see as truth.

geordi wrote:
There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.


I see as the opposite of truth. Just my opinion.

The gentleman who purchased the used prius and had a 'brownout' probably did not have a battery failure. A properly running Electrially Variable Transmission (EVT) doesn't use the battery a whole lot in normal driving. There is a generator that pulls torque from the engine to create electricity, and a drive motor that pulls electricity to make torque. There is also a gearset that directly transmits torque from the engine to the wheels.

The best online explanation I've found of how the prius works is here http://eahart.com/prius/psd/.

When things are going well, the electricity from the generator is fed rather directly to the drive motor ('battery neutral'). The battery is required to ...

1. 'soak up' errors in motor control (others know far more about this than I),
2. capture the energy from regenerative braking,
3. and drive in full electric mode.

What most people will see with aging batteries is a gradual decrease of the last two functions.

One of the first things I had to do with hybrids was taking safety training. What I learned is that I'll never f*** with that stuff. The concept of a garage mechanic swapping high voltage batteries, coupled with the standard US lawyer, does indeed frighten auto manufacturers. What it should do instead is frighten the garage mechanics.

I may work on hybrids, but I drive and preach something else. (Edit - The GM / Chrysler / Mercedes / BMW cooperation hybrid transmission is an order of magnitude more complex than the Toyota transmission.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:53 pm 
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Agreed they need to get the prices for battery pack replacements down. Also agree on Toyota "spin" though most people would call it smart marketing and an aggressive business plan. Toyota having smarter PR people and executives with a longer time horizon would seem to make them a model for success rather than a villain. A villain in this case might be the US automaker executives, who's companies developed high efficiency diesels, diesel hybrids, and gasoline hybrid designs back in the 1990's with taxpayer handouts under the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles", then chose not to put any of them in production. Or Ford's genius execs, who chose to kill Bill Clay Ford's plan to expand hybrid Escape production last year in favor of building more full-size V8 SUV's.

However, maintain some perspective. If a battery pack runs 150,000 - 200,000 miles before replacement, it has matched or exceeded the average life of a straight gasoline drivetrain. Yes, it is a hell of a lot more expensive to replace, but folks are kidding themselves if they think this is some kind of achilies heel that will stop the hybrid juggernaut.

Hybrid tech is winning the American market, due to smart marketing/PR and the price of diesel fuel. That is what the Mercedes guy was complaining about a few weeks ago--diesel can compete with (and surpass) hybrids from a performance and longevity perspective, but when the Average American sees regular UL at $4.00 a gallon and diesel at $5.00 a gallon, the diesel vehicle is a non-starter.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:35 pm 
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cool concept here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor . If it actually does come out in the CitiZenn next year, I know what my next car purchase will be.

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned about Toyota long ago
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:56 pm 
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warp2diesel wrote:
Toyota has the best Spin Control Department in the industry. True they have been known to Take Care of Their Customers, but they are not perfect, there stuff does break and fail and they do their best to cover it up. I have coached friends and family to get satisfaction out of Toyota, but others have been left out to dry. They are banking a lot on the Prius, but as diesel owners we all knew their 65mpg was a total scam and in reality it was 42mpg. My Wife's 99TDI gets better mileage than that and it is a larger, roomier, safer car.
One reason the News Media does not rip Toyota is the same reason they don't expose the politicians they vote for for minor offenses, they voted for Toyota with their paychecks and a lot of them own Toyota. If the problems with an given Toyota were a major safety or reliability issue, they would cover it, but Toyota gets away with more than any of the U.S. car companies.
The one reason I don't own Toyota is that I have driven them and worked on them in the past. I find the rental units to be a disappointment to drive. When I was in the repair business, I was glad some one was paying me for my time to fix them.


I've worked for Toyota for many years in the past. This Jeep is the first non-Toyota vehicle I've owned. In fact, my Jeep would have been an FJ if I had my way. Taking care of the customer is #1 and to a customer that's all that matters (and resale value :D ).

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:52 pm 
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it will all be moot anyhow, hybrid cars are just a bandaid fix until hydrogen technology advances....right now Honda is getting ready to release 500-1000 hydrogen cars only in southern california, the place with the most (if not all) the hydrogen refilling stations...no one else can pre-order one of these cars yet, but its only a matter of time until hybrids go by the wayside for the real alternative fuel cars. Once refueling stations can be built nationally, it will be a slow start, but in the end, hydrogen vehicles will replace the gasser/electric hybrid. my 2 cent prediction. LOL

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 Post subject: Problem with Hydrogen
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:23 pm 
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Hydrogen made by running Solar panel or wind power generated DC through water (with a touch of Sulfuric acid in it to conduct the electricity) is an environmentally sound solution open to those who want to make their own H2 :)
The way industry makes Hydrogen is to crack natural gas into Hydrogen and Carbon Dioxide :!: :!: :!:
What good does this do besides make a Greenie Weenie feel good :?:
It amazes me all of the phony solutions that CARB latches onto and forces the people in California put up with.
As I have stated before, Impounding trucks and cars with expired Mexican license plates would do more for the environment. :!: :!: :!:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:26 pm 
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it will all be moot anyhow, hybrid cars are just a bandaid fix until hydrogen technology advances....right now Honda is getting ready to release 500-1000 hydrogen cars only in southern california, the place with the most (if not all) the hydrogen refilling stations...no one else can pre-order one of these cars yet, but its only a matter of time until hybrids go by the wayside for the real alternative fuel cars. Once refueling stations can be built nationally, it will be a slow start, but in the end, hydrogen vehicles will replace the gasser/electric hybrid. my 2 cent prediction. LOL


You are kidding right? have you looked into the actual practicality of H2 as a fuel source? Here is a very good compare/contrast article on the concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
There is an excellent graph halfway down the page showing the superiority of battery energy storage. This was an interesting quote "Currently it takes 2½ times as much energy to make a hydrogen fuel cell than is obtained from it during it's service life" The Honda hydrogen car is a masterpiece of engineering and gives a nice warm fuzzy feeling to the uneducated but is in the end pointless, as it would never make more sense than even current BEV technology.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:50 pm 
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nursecosmo wrote:
Pote wrote:
it will all be moot anyhow, hybrid cars are just a bandaid fix until hydrogen technology advances....right now Honda is getting ready to release 500-1000 hydrogen cars only in southern california, the place with the most (if not all) the hydrogen refilling stations...no one else can pre-order one of these cars yet, but its only a matter of time until hybrids go by the wayside for the real alternative fuel cars. Once refueling stations can be built nationally, it will be a slow start, but in the end, hydrogen vehicles will replace the gasser/electric hybrid. my 2 cent prediction. LOL


You are kidding right? have you looked into the actual practicality of H2 as a fuel source? Here is a very good compare/contrast article on the concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
There is an excellent graph halfway down the page showing the superiority of battery energy storage. This was an interesting quote "Currently it takes 2½ times as much energy to make a hydrogen fuel cell than is obtained from it during it's service life" The Honda hydrogen car is a masterpiece of engineering and gives a nice warm fuzzy feeling to the uneducated but is in the end pointless, as it would never make more sense than even current BEV technology.
I wouldn't trust anything on wikipedia,since anyone can change stuff on there at will it's most likely false anyways.


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