Wow. Someone got up ill today.

On to the question of the forum....

I know where you are coming from with the KJ vs (insert any SFA Jeep here) debate. I've gone back and forth on this a lot myself. My reason for sticking with the KJ... Kids. We like to go offroading, but I have to have room for 3 smallish kids. The KJ does that well and keeps them comfortable on the trip to the trail. I also feel that if we do roll it on the trail, it might be a little safer than a open roof Jeep.

So, does that mean I don't want awesome offroad capabilities? No. I still want to crawl and mud with the best of them, but I've realized that even if I had a Wrangler, I wouldn't be happy. I'd have to do axle swaps (unless I drop the bux for a good rubi) and Tires, lockers, beadlockers, etc, etc, etc. So if I am going to do that, why not do it to the KJ. And then I'd still be able to haul 5,000 lb loads. Maybe a light rock crawler and make the KJ the tow vehicle.

My KJ has actually impressed me with what it is capable of offroad. And I've done what I have with Open Diffs. Once I get lockers in, I may not need an SFA If I want to go true hardcore, I'll need a buggy crawler anyway.

So, my suggestion is to keep the KJ and do a SFA Swap. That fixes 80% of the issues with the KJ and it may not be any more expensive than swapping out the axles on a Wrangler (and the other things you would do to it). I'm eagerly awaiting this Rock Lizard SFA kit. Barring that, I'll be taking a trip to nearby Wilmington to where OHVKJ got his SFA done (for less than $10k).

Either way, I think I'll be happier with the final product and I don't think the difference in cost will be much different. Bottom line is, I know EXACTLY what you are saying. I went through a "I'm gonna sell it and get a wrangler" stage too. I also know that what is right for me isn't right for everyone, so look at your individual situation and the options that are available.

Rescu2000

_________________
2003 Liberty Sport 4X4
DIY Frankie Lift, BBS Rims, Aussie Locker Rear, DTT Front, Renegade Rack & Light Bar, Custom Front Bumper w/ Warn XD9000i, Custom Rear Bumper, JBA UCA's, Full Skids(Mopar, Kilby and Super skid), CRS Rock Rails, CB, EVIC, Nav, power dim mirror, (2) 8" subs under front seats. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2512777

Actually, my last SUV was a 1995 Chevy Tahoe with over 247,000 miles on it when I sold it. After 5 years on a new vehicle, I no longer carry full coverage. In my 33 years, I or my wife have never used auto insurance. Life is a risk, so I choose to take that gamble. Continuing to pay full coverage for a 2002 KJ is not worth it to me. I’d much rather take that money and invest it into something that will make me money. Maybe if I were TJKJ2002, who had a custom 2002 KJ with a $7,000 dollar paint job, then I would reconsider. But yeah, you’re talking about a 2002 KJ, sorry, but it’s not worth that much. I can go buy a used 2002 KJ right now for under $6,000 dollars.

_________________
2015 Ram Ecodiesel/Big Horn/4x4/Quad Cab
2016 Arctic Fox 22G/Onboard 2500 LP Cummins Onan Generator/160 Watt Solar Panel

I took the road less traveled. Now I'm LOST.

Not everybody bought their KJs new, and not everybody has $6,000 in cash just laying around to buy another Jeep if something happens to their current one.

Sorry, but that comment just stunk like I did after eating Chipotle this afternoon.

I don’t think the comment stunk, I think the comment was directed to CrossBones with the intent to give him options. I’m letting him know that keeping his KJ, rather than trading it, might be in his favor. Furthermore, dropping his full coverage to liability may increase his options.

_________________
2015 Ram Ecodiesel/Big Horn/4x4/Quad Cab
2016 Arctic Fox 22G/Onboard 2500 LP Cummins Onan Generator/160 Watt Solar Panel

I took the road less traveled. Now I'm LOST.

7 words.

Be happy with what you already have!

incubusmike; I think you're right when you wrote decide how far I want to push it. I've only been out to one place (trail) locally and I see steep climbs that no way can my stock KJ handle like the modded Wranglers do. But I have had fun with it and I am thinking I should lift it, buy some fitting tires & wheels, and enjoy it for what it's worth. Speaking of Fwiw, I paid cash for the KJ, (but I would finance a new Rubicon if I went that route). LIke I wrote previously, I thought this KJ was a good looking Jeep and the price was right. Mind you, I had no clue how capable the KJ was at off-roading. As you know, I am a total newb to off-road play (in a vehicle anyway). What you wrote (including possible down the road thoughts on my part) made a lot of sense. Thanks. Maybe I should buy a Yamaha Raptor?

rescu2000; I can appreciate the fact you too know where I am coming from but I have to question (not you, but the idea) of installing an SFA? What's the point? If the KJ isn't good enough to play with on the trails, then why not just buy another sfa model Jeep? I don't understand that? Isn't the whole point of swapping IFS for SFA to hard core off road? Seems to me one should just buy a Wrangler and mod it? Maybe I'm missing something here? Like it's cheaper for some to do this rather than buy another Jeep? Anyway, your reply was much appreciated, thanks.

dieselenthusiast; fwiw, I carry full coverage insurance however insurance costs aren't really an issue in the grand scheme of things here. But thanks for your insight.

ThunderbirdJunkie; I know what you're trying to say. But dood, chipotle will do that to you every time. Fwiw, if I was going to replace the KJ, it would be with a KJ (2dr) Rubicon. That much I have figured out.

Thanks everyone.

_________________
Illegitima Non carborundom!

Personally if someone offered me a 2 door Rubi for my Liberty I would laugh and walk away. I like the way mine rides and does everything better than the Rubi would, plus I hate being like everyone else

_________________
MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

I don't understand the "being like everyone else"? Anyway, I've watched some modded Rubicon's and Wranglers do some impressive things off road, and I figured, no way could my KJ handle that?!

But where I am at now... I am going to keep the KJ - Do some functional mods (bling or cosmetics) don't mean much to me, and have some fun with it.

_________________
Illegitima Non carborundom!

I have a group of friends that I have wheeled with since the 70s , its a running joke with us that all you need to be a "real 4 wheeler" is a Red Rubicon and a off road catalog from one company or another and a credit card, no thought process, no real work involved, just buy, bolt on and be the best in your mind !
Now before everyone hates me for saying the above, two of them do have Rubicons now, it's a running joke but yet....

_________________
MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

_________________
99 TJ
71 C101
04 KJ
03 SFA KJ Sport
LOST JEEPS So-Cal

Well heck, I would want a Stone White Rubicon.

_________________
Illegitima Non carborundom!

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in:

First I bought my KJ because I wanted a small diesel SUV and it was the ONLY thing that fit my needs.

With that aside however, I have had the same moral debate on a number of occasions. But I take a reality check and think "How often to I get off road anyway?" Maybe twice a month. The other 28 days of the month I drive it on the road. A Wrangler just doesn't make sense in that context. If I ever get to a point where I have the time to do serous off roading on a regular, on-going basis I will buy an older YJ and build it from the ground up as a strictly off road beast. I can tow it to the trail head with my trusty KJ and go nuts!

I have grown to love my Liberty and I will keep it after it is paid off. It just makes the most sense for me right now.

_________________
'06 Stone White, CRD Limited
CRD Frankenlift II, Rock Lizard Rear Bumper, Mann Provent, GDE FT-ECO Tune, "Euro Torque Converter, Transgo 545RFE-H2 Shift Kit, 245/75 MT/R's on Moabs, Full Mopar Skids, Front Tow Hooks, CAT 2 Fuel filter and bleeder valve mod, Fumoto valve, Wahlbro Lift Pump, Custom 2 1/2" Exhaust

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to classify what kind of offroading you will do. Buying a wrangler and building it up does not strike me as a better option than doing a SAS on my KJ. If I buy the wrangler, I'd end up upgrading the axles, adding ARB lockers, etc etc. The cost would probably be similar to a SFA on the KJ. You mention that the KJ isn't good enough to play with on the trails. Actually, I think mine is very capable as it sits. But I do want a little more capability out of it, hence the SFA. Once that is in place I think that it is ready for serious offroading.

Now you also mention "hard core" offroading. For that, I would probably not use the KJ. I'd use a purpose built vehicle. But that is not because I think the KJ isn't a capable off road vehicle. It just isn't the right tool for that purpose, but neither is a wrangler. I'd be concerned about body damage, etc. But I'd have those same concerns whether it is a wrangler or a KJ if it is in good shape and worth decent money.

Now, the last comment above where you question whether it is cheaper to do a SFA swap as opposed to buying a wrangler and fixing it up. I actually believe that it can be. Consider that we have a wide range of costs on the SAS rigs on the board. On the high end we have a $24,000 swap. On the low end (in price) we have around $7,000. Who knows what the Rock Lizard kit will come out at... I'd wait for that information before I made a decision. But keep in mind that the high end swap used some very expensive parts. Parts that would not come stock on a wrangler. To get the same set up he has on his KJ, you will need to spend quite a bit of money on a stock wrangler. Now factor in what the wrangler costs. After you buy it, you are still out $2k for ARB Lockers (which I think the $24k setup has), etc, etc and I think you will end up with quite a bit of money tied up. I don't think you would come out ahead with a $24k swap, don't get me wrong. But I think you would break even with a $7,000 swap. I think you could then hang with moderately built Wranglers and have a four door, comfortable rig with features you can't get on a wrangler.

Yea, the top off thing is nice, but I have my convertables for that. Besides, have you ever been mudding with the top off? That can get ugly...

I really want to exit with this last comment. I can't stress enough that the KJ IS ABSOLUTELY good enough to play on the trails. I have taken mine anywhere I had the gonads to want to go and it has never let me down. I've never been winched, towed, or pulled (yet) and I've climbed some gnarly stuff. And I haven't even reached the limit of what I can do with the IFS (no lockers yet). I've seen some videos of guys in KJ's at Moab. Watch some of those, or check out some of the photos on Rock Lizard's website. You can definitely get off of the pavement in these things.

_________________
2003 Liberty Sport 4X4
DIY Frankie Lift, BBS Rims, Aussie Locker Rear, DTT Front, Renegade Rack & Light Bar, Custom Front Bumper w/ Warn XD9000i, Custom Rear Bumper, JBA UCA's, Full Skids(Mopar, Kilby and Super skid), CRS Rock Rails, CB, EVIC, Nav, power dim mirror, (2) 8" subs under front seats. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2512777

I don't recall saying the KJ wasn't good enough for trails? What I did say, or meant to say, was that I didn't think my KJ could tackle the steep muddy rocky inclines that I've seen various types of Wranglers attack. Maybe I am wrong? Maybe I have been been spooked by various topics / threads here about the quality or lack there of, regarding some of the KJ's attributes? ie; weak D30a's, and ifs, to name only two. I will definitely checkout some of those video's you mentioned to see KJ's like mine (very important, mind you) attack hard core hills and such.

Speaking of Wranglers, my choice would be a Rubicon. That way, I am ahead of the game with "mods" such as air lockers, and D44 axles. Yes, I am going to spend upwards of $15K used, $30K new - but that may be what I need to do? No, my pockets aren't deep, but if I am going to play the game, any game, I want what will make me happy, by allowing me to play with the Big Boys - as I see it. Take for example the Harley I bought this spring, it cost me $18K ($22K street price), and I chose that model because one, I liked it when it was unveiled, and secondly, it was the right cruising / touring bike for me. A lessor ride friendly $12K Sportster wasn't going to cut it for me.

But for now, I am taking incubusmike's advice and going to mod and play with my KJ. If it can't do the job, I will get rid of it. But now you've possibly opened my eyes to the fact it maybe very well be capable of doing it for me.

Thanks rescu2000, I appreciated your imput here.

_________________
Illegitima Non carborundom!

Glad to see that you are keeping the KJ, as far as buying a Rubicon and having it do what you want, thats fine but I think to play with the big boys you would be modding it as well even more than the KJ. Just spend some time with some Rubi owners or visit Rubicon Owners Forum and see how fast and how much they change them after even buying the best Jeep has to offer

_________________
MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

No doubt. I figured there would be mods to a Rubicon. That is why I mentioned being ahead of the game with D44's & air lockers on a Rubicon. I've seen a couple of newer Rubicons around these parts and those people have spent some cash on mods.

_________________
Illegitima Non carborundom!

I stumpled across this last night. I don't know if this is going to be of any interest CrossBones, but it helped me to understand my KJ's abilities a little better. From this article it would appear that I have been underestimating what a stock KJ can actually do.
http://www.rockcrawler.com/reviews/jeep ... /index.asp

_________________
2006 KJ Sport, Dark Khaki, 3.7 Litre
NSG370 6 Speed Manual Transmission | NP241J Command Trac HD Part Time 4wd | 3.55s | 245/70R16 Firestone Destination A/Ts | Mopar Tow Hooks & Skids | Powerslot Brake Rotors | ARB Rear Differential Cover

I think you'll be OK with the kJ. Put some lockers in it. But you are absoltely right that our weak link is the IFS and d30a. That's why I won't be happy until I have a SAS. It fixes both issues. So you can go spend $15k plus for a a Rubicon, or keep your KJ and see what this RockLizard kit ends up costing. If it comes in at $5k to $10k, it might be just the ticket.

Oh, and the video I saw on YouTube at Moab was almost a stock KJ I think. The video mentions that he did the rim with no winching, pulling, etc.

[/quote]

_________________
2003 Liberty Sport 4X4
DIY Frankie Lift, BBS Rims, Aussie Locker Rear, DTT Front, Renegade Rack & Light Bar, Custom Front Bumper w/ Warn XD9000i, Custom Rear Bumper, JBA UCA's, Full Skids(Mopar, Kilby and Super skid), CRS Rock Rails, CB, EVIC, Nav, power dim mirror, (2) 8" subs under front seats. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2512777

I think your worrying too much, the KJ can attack many of those trials. I have seen it done plenty of times. No the KJ does not have massive articulation to pose on 5 foot rock ledges, but it can do plenty of real off roading. Realize that most of the TJ/JK crowd have never driven a modified KJ off road, so their opinion of its capability is not always accurate.

Your idea about driving it first and seeing what its limits are is the correct one. You are going to be surprised. You will also be a better driver for driving a vehicle that actually makes you have to think. I go 95% or more of the places those Rubi's go (I think the terrain here in in AZ is much worse than what your likely to see where your at).

Another thing, KJ drivers are cheap. If something does not work and money has to be spent, KJ drivers will let you know about it. TJ drivers will drop coin left and right and not even blink. Those TJ's that are posing on 6 foot rocks and what not have big money in them. You are still not going to be able to abuse a stock TJ day in and out like that. PLus, things break on them too.

And check out the pictures thread and the previous trail runs for the evidence.

Here are a few good trails I did this summer. Tons of fun, occasional butt puckers situations, challenges for those looking, and all show the KJ is a capable rig.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=34931
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 124#372124
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=34467

_________________
My Jeep Build ----> Big Black