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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:26 am 
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Uttles wrote:
Don't forget, narrow tires also put more pounds per square inch where it counts the most. Around here (Southern Ontario Canada) most people assume that the best all-around winter tire is: A winter Tire designed with softer compounds, more siping, and a narrower tire. Rather a normal tire is what I should say. So not a specifically wider tire, like going from 215 or 225 to 265 etc. 265 will work great sometimes, but the narrow tire will work better for traction in more conditions, assuming you live where there is snow/sleet/ice.


..This is basically where I was trying to go with my first post (in this thread) - my biggest problem is a lack of eloquence..
You probably see similar weather as I do since I am near Niagara Falls, NY.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:43 pm 
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I'd also heard that it is best to have a skinny tire for winter driving.. However, I think the best tip or trick for driving when the roads are dangerous is to "drive for the conditions."

Driving too fast is what gets most people into trouble.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:46 pm 
HoppedUpOnGoofballs wrote:
long_tall_texan wrote:
Drop your tire pressure down to 15-20 PSI. Kind of like off-roading, you get much better traction. But remember not to drive too fast with deflated tires. Also air them back up once the roads clear so as not to cause excessive wear.


..Thats a sure-fire way to end up in a ditch, or worse.. You will slide more in ice and snow with under-inflated tires. You dont want to 'float' on top of the snow; you want to cut through it to the surface beneath it. Narrow tires at a high PSI are the best bet for winter weather.


Actually, unless you are stuck the tire does not cut through the snow it compresses it. You have to think in terms of tire footprint and not just tire width. The footprint size depends on tire width, diameter, and tire pressure. A larger footprint will produce less compressive force and 'float' more on top of the snow. A smaller footprint will do the opposite. More compressive force is good in many loose snowy road conditions. On pure ice or hard pack it makes more sense to have a larger footprint since the base is already compressed. A larger foot print has more biting surfaces.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:38 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
Jeepjeepster wrote:
Tokyojoe wrote:
I see a lot of people lift their wipers off and keep them hanging out when they park their vehicle. Why? I see no added benefit and I grew up in the North. You still have to let the vehicle heat up and melt the ice on the windshield before use.


Wonder how long it takes till the springs are not strong enough to give a good clean wipe anymore?
Not long,I've been replacing 2-3 sets a week for the last 3-4 weeks(not my KJ).



I always saw that a lot in Colorado. Never understood that one. I am just patient and let my vehicles warm up before driving off. Heated mirrors are the BOMB I tell you!


I miss the snow big time but I don't miss that mag chloride crap they put on the roads there in Colorado. That stuff sucked and I am still trying to get rust off my TJ from driving in the crap and having the Jeep break down and not being able to wash it for almost a year after. That stuff is crap and who ever says it cuts down on corrosion (over salt) is full of it!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:48 am 
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ATXKJ wrote:
CrossBones wrote:
ATXKJ wrote:
Move to South Texas - laugh when people talk about Ice and Snow :lol: :lol:

(Southern Cal, Florida, Arizona - they'll work too)

Or stay in the midwest and laugh when you see people in grid-lock on the highway while trying to escape hurricanes. Of course don't forget those who deal with earthquakes, mud slides, wild fires and rain storms that make driving on oil slick roads like driving on ice. :roll:

Although I don't personally find any of this funny, including ice & snow storms, I'll stay right here, thank you.


actually if you look at the Census data
http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/stproj.html
http://www.censusscope.org/us/s17/chart_popl.html
http://www.censusscope.org/us/s48/chart_popl.html

for better or worse - my argument's more persuasive than your's

In your own mind it is. Anyone who would suggest census predictions have something to do with global climate conditions or especially the topic of snow & ice is unquestionably within their own mind.

btw; what bugnout referred to meant the Great Lakes States told the southwest to go pound sand after they suggested a pipeline. I don't suppose you know how long a person can survive without drinking water? Hey, you like links, look it up - so the population is expected to grow?! Now that's funny.

bugnout, tell us more about these new fangled drinking water toilets

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:57 am 
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icarl wrote:
HoppedUpOnGoofballs wrote:
Actually, unless you are stuck the tire does not cut through the snow it compresses it. You have to think in terms of tire footprint and not just tire width. The footprint size depends on tire width, diameter, and tire pressure. A larger footprint will produce less compressive force and 'float' more on top of the snow. A smaller footprint will do the opposite. More compressive force is good in many loose snowy road conditions. On pure ice or hard pack it makes more sense to have a larger footprint since the base is already compressed. A larger foot print has more biting surfaces.


Sorry but this is wrong... a larger footprint does not provide a better "biting surface". The truth is quite the opposite actually. A narrower tire provides more pounds per square inch of pressure on the ice (which is the only way of creating friction on ice). Pounds per square inch is the reason an ice pick sticks better than a sledge hammer in the slick stuff. The reason why you get better traction on the snow than the underlying ice is quite simple: snow crystals are very abrasive and create a lot of friction when they are sandwiched between your tire and the ice. A narrower tire will also apply more pressure between the snow crystals and the road. This gives us traction that we can use. Things change when the snow begins to get deeper and creates drag. As it gets deeper you start to fight drag on the undercarriage and the efforts of the leading edge of the tire to "climb" through the snow in front of it. You will spin when the drag exceeds your traction. This is when you consider increasing flotation to decrease the drag as opposed to increasing traction. Driving through deep snow is treated the same as driving through sand... driving on ice is a different animal entirely.

Long story short: narrow tires on ice---> good

(so says the guy who has driven thousands of miles above the arctic circle)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:19 pm 
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durangotang wrote:
icarl wrote:
HoppedUpOnGoofballs wrote:
Actually, unless you are stuck the tire does not cut through the snow it compresses it. You have to think in terms of tire footprint and not just tire width. The footprint size depends on tire width, diameter, and tire pressure. A larger footprint will produce less compressive force and 'float' more on top of the snow. A smaller footprint will do the opposite. More compressive force is good in many loose snowy road conditions. On pure ice or hard pack it makes more sense to have a larger footprint since the base is already compressed. A larger foot print has more biting surfaces.


Well, I didnt type that.. I think you deleted the wrong name, or quote tag..


durangotang wrote:
Long story short: narrow tires on ice---> good

(so says the guy who has driven thousands of miles above the arctic circle)


So, where does your experience to make that statement come from again?? :lol: :lol:


Seriously, though.. You dragged me back in to a discussion I was trying to stay away from - your explanantion is the best one in this thread, and is pretty much what I have always heard, and is why I suggested narrower tires.

Carry on..

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:42 pm 
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this could go on for days and days... even months , good arguments on both sides and again depends on where you are, what you are driving on that day ,

But this is much like....
do you prefer a redhead, blond or burnette!!
I have been married to one of each and all had their good and bad points ...
just like tires!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:07 pm 
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HoppedUpOnGoofballs wrote:
durangotang wrote:
icarl wrote:
HoppedUpOnGoofballs wrote:
Actually, unless you are stuck the tire does not cut through the snow it compresses it. You have to think in terms of tire footprint and not just tire width. The footprint size depends on tire width, diameter, and tire pressure. A larger footprint will produce less compressive force and 'float' more on top of the snow. A smaller footprint will do the opposite. More compressive force is good in many loose snowy road conditions. On pure ice or hard pack it makes more sense to have a larger footprint since the base is already compressed. A larger foot print has more biting surfaces.


Well, I didnt type that.. I think you deleted the wrong name, or quote tag..


durangotang wrote:
Long story short: narrow tires on ice---> good

(so says the guy who has driven thousands of miles above the arctic circle)


So, where does your experience to make that statement come from again?? :lol: :lol:


Seriously, though.. You dragged me back in to a discussion I was trying to stay away from - your explanantion is the best one in this thread, and is pretty much what I have always heard, and is why I suggested narrower tires.

Carry on..


Sorry about that... I think I deleted the wrong quote tag. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:54 pm 
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The biggest secret for winter driving is a tire called Bridgestone Blizzaks. They rule above all. I don't even know if make them in Liberty sizes, but on my brothers Subura WRX they make it unstoppable in snow even when its hitting the body of the vehicle and causing a great deal of resistance.
Siped tires are the fundamental advantage during winter driving. Without them, you might as well have racing slicks. As far as airing down, I find it works best for short trips in really deep snow, like around town during a blizzard, but not so good for long trips with faster driving and patchy road conditions. The wider the tire, the better, period. Those "get to the bottom where there's traction" theories are BS TO ME, even for mud. Try doing that in hard pack. If you "get to the bottom" of deep snow, you're already stuck because the body of the vehicle is hitting snow too much or you're high centered! Traction can always be found on top of snow and mud, you just need tires with siping and self-cleaning. If you float on the snow, you never see the ice on bottom. Wranglers easily fit hella fat tires, and that's why they rock in deep snow and mud...only problem is that they're so darn light they can slide very easily.
That's my take.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:58 pm 
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......


Last edited by snowsport on Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:16 pm 
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I took my son out to an empty snow covered parking lot when he was learning how to drive. Did donuts, fishtailed, slid etc. so that he knew how to handle the situation. I recommend it highly if you have little experience on snow and ice.

If you hit black ice, don't accelerate, get your foot off the accelerator, and don't hit the brakes. you have limited traction so make very slight steering changes.

On ice, tires will only regain traction if they are not being driven or they are not being artificially slowed, like with engine braking. Sometimes its advantageous to put the tranny in Nuetral until you regain traction (or hit something) :shock:

I've found that when you have no traction you sometimes gain a little steering by feathering the parking brake a bit. This is not something to try the first time it happens, you should have practiced this in the parking lot mentioned earlier. :D :D

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:19 pm 
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any one old enough to remember when you actually had snow tires that you bought in the fall of the year and ran them until spring, if you didn't wear them out the local tire store would store them for you until the next fall.
We used to stay open 12/14 hours a day when the first snows hit as people would wait until the last minute to get them put on.
After radials came out that started to do away with dedicated snows. Used to hate studding tires as well, takes a long while to do.

One of the best setups I had for snow/ice was a 2 wheel drive F-150 / Detroit Locker, 10-15 Remington Wide Brutes (bias ply tires) studded all the way around, awesome on snow and ice, oh and 600 lb of horse feed in the bed :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:47 pm 
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I just noticed today that my new grabber at 2s have holes for ice studs. anyone ever used them before?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:45 pm 
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The best way to keep ice and snow off the Jeep during storms is to put it in the garage. HaHa
Thats what I do
never failed yet

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:48 pm 
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i just go out and start mine and let it run for a few mins.. i'm afraid of a remote starter with a manual :shock: as far has tires.. it's good to air down but not a ton. you dont want a squishy tire but you also dont want to ride on the center of your tire... in the summer i run 35 psi and get better gas milage since it's on less of the tread.. = less resistance. when the snow and ice comes i normally run 25-28ish.. just to get it a full footprint. the more rubber on the ice the more traction you'll have.. (common sense). sure the best situation is a skinner SNOW/ICE tire with studs.. i ran 4 of them on my fwd car and it was a tank. but you still dont run those at 80psi?? still want a good footprint reguardless.. if they are over inflated the studs will be worthless since they're on the edge of the tire. i dont have them for the Kj so i make due with what i have and above is what works best for me.


TIP- when defrosting put down both sun visors.. defrosts in half the time and does the top of the windshield since it keeps the warm air circulating against it instead of blowing through the car.

TIP- when going down hills.. or sliding a lot. slap'er in neutral.. if the gears and tranny arent fighting the wheels you have better control

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:26 am 
durangotang wrote:
icarl wrote:
HoppedUpOnGoofballs wrote:
Actually, unless you are stuck the tire does not cut through the snow it compresses it. You have to think in terms of tire footprint and not just tire width. The footprint size depends on tire width, diameter, and tire pressure. A larger footprint will produce less compressive force and 'float' more on top of the snow. A smaller footprint will do the opposite. More compressive force is good in many loose snowy road conditions. On pure ice or hard pack it makes more sense to have a larger footprint since the base is already compressed. A larger foot print has more biting surfaces.


Sorry but this is wrong... a larger footprint does not provide a better "biting surface". The truth is quite the opposite actually. A narrower tire provides more pounds per square inch of pressure on the ice (which is the only way of creating friction on ice). Pounds per square inch is the reason an ice pick sticks better than a sledge hammer in the slick stuff. The reason why you get better traction on the snow than the underlying ice is quite simple: snow crystals are very abrasive and create a lot of friction when they are sandwiched between your tire and the ice. A narrower tire will also apply more pressure between the snow crystals and the road. This gives us traction that we can use. Things change when the snow begins to get deeper and creates drag. As it gets deeper you start to fight drag on the undercarriage and the efforts of the leading edge of the tire to "climb" through the snow in front of it. You will spin when the drag exceeds your traction. This is when you consider increasing flotation to decrease the drag as opposed to increasing traction. Driving through deep snow is treated the same as driving through sand... driving on ice is a different animal entirely.

Long story short: narrow tires on ice---> good

(so says the guy who has driven thousands of miles above the arctic circle)


I did not say a larger footprint has a better biting surface i said it has more biting surfaces spread over a larger area. Yes higher pressure will produce greater friction. However when you create higher pressure you also reduce frictional area so the amount you gain from pressure you lose from a loss of area. IMHO if the ice that you are driving on is uniform then it makes no difference if you use a skinny tire or a wider tire. The reason for this is friction is directly proportional to surface area, weight, and the coefficient of friction of the surface. If you increase the surface area this increases the friction. Likewise, if you increase the weight this also increases the friction. So if you vary tire width you lose/gain area and pressure, but the net friction is the same. It's 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other. However, if the ice is not uniform having a larger footprint will give your tire more opportunity to find traction.

Also you need to consider why racing cars use fat tires because they provide more frictional surface area to the road. If pressure were the only factor then they would be using skinny tires on race cars.

The reason a blade works well on ice is because it cuts the surface and digs into the ice. tires can not do this because they are blunt and not sharp, unless they have studs of course.

In all honesty it is more complicated then what we have talked about here and we both have valid points to our arguments. For example, A tire's contact patch is always changing therefore the maximum coefficient of friction can occur anywhere within that contact patch. A wider tire has an advantage in that the greater the area, the greater the likelihood of maximum traction. Thus, under identical load and on the same surface, the wider tire has a greater contact area and develops higher traction, resulting in greater stopping ability.

here is an interesting read on narrow/wide tires


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:26 am 
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I had never thought of the visor trick, gunna have to try it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:06 am 
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I love it when "experts" argue.........how many pages will this go on, very interesting, back and forth :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:27 am 
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TOM!!!!!!
once again, if you \keep postin in these "worthless threads", then others will posat too!!!!!!!!


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