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 Post subject: ANOTHER PROBLEM!!!! P0069 This time CRD#1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:27 pm 
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I CANNOT FREAKIN BELIEVE THIS.

CRD#2 already has several codes that have been on for a while, that I cannot clear and appear to be related to the EGR so I've been ignoring them for now. But CRD#1 just threw another code; this time a completely new one: P0069
"Manifold Pressure Barometric"
"Pressure Correlation"

So what the hell?! Anew intake manifold? Gaskets? Turbo intake hoses? Whatever it is, I can't imagine it will either cheap or easy.

I hear no whistling normally associated with intake leads (Although I DO hear a whistling upon acceleration in CRD#2 which I was going to ask about before CRD#1 threw a code)

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2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock


Last edited by KeighJeigh on Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Check and clean the MAP.....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:32 pm 
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.....Boost hoses are easy to check too, go for the cheap solution first, you may get lucky.

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 Post subject: Re: ANOTHER PROBLEM!!!! P0069 This time CRD#1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:47 pm 
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KeighJeigh wrote:
I CANNOT FREAKIN BELIEVE THIS!!!!!!!!!! I can't go 20 miles (literally) without one or both of these PsOS throwing a code or breaking down.

CRD#2 already has several codes that have been on for a while, that I cannot clear and appear to be related to the EGR so I've been ignoring them for now. But CRD#1 just threw another code; this time a completely new one: P0069
"Manifold Pressure Barometric"
"Pressure Correlation"
Which I assume is some poor Chinese translation for "You're screwed pal".

So what the hell?! I suppose I now need a new intake manifold? Gaskets? Turbo intake hoses? Whatever it is, I can't imagine it will either cheap or easy.

I hear no whistling normally associated with intake leads (Although I DO hear a whistling upon acceleration in CRD#2 which I was going to ask about before CRD#1 threw a code)

-------------------

If this goes on much longer I will have no choice but to sell these things & buy cheaper cars. They are lemons by any definition, no doubt about it. I've never had nor heard of anyone having this much trouble with a car(s) - especially new ones. I mean, what the hell, we bought these thinking the diesels would last forever. The problem is, I've got so much invested in them and I don't know whether or not I've finally got the bugs worked out. I'm beginning the think the fundamental design and overall quality on these is just so darn poor they are, at the core, just plain junk mobiles. THIS is why Detroit is in trouble.




Come down it is not as bad as you think you have a map sensor dirty or damage, cac houses maybe leaking and check your fuel filter for air. Egr go SERG and cover the exhust intake at the egr with a flat metal so the egr will be close.


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 Post subject: Re: ANOTHER PROBLEM!!!! P0069 This time CRD#1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:05 pm 
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nescosmo wrote:
Come down it is not as bad as you think you have a map sensor dirty or damage, cac houses maybe leaking and check your fuel filter for air. Egr go SERG and cover the exhust intake at the egr with a flat metal so the egr will be close.

OK. Edited out the commentary and multiple exclamation marks. But man, this really is getting old.

MAP sensor: I keep them clean in both cars. In the past, MAP problems have thrown codes concerning boost pressure. But, I wouldn't be surprised if they will fail soon as I imagine there are a limited number of times you can clean them...

"CAC" hoses?

Fuel filter has been purged and CRD#1 has a lift pump.

Yes, SERG needs implementation but the EGR is only a few months old....

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:47 pm 
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The P0069 is related to the inlet pressure sensor which is located on the air box (it's the other sensor). Maybe the wiring got wet somehow inside the connector, or its loose, or some other trivial breakage.

It's a not-to-worry code, clear it and it shouldn't come back. I don't believe that sensor is expensive if that be the case.

I'd double check that the Boost Sensor in the intake manifold is clean and not gunked up, and that the wiring is otherwise intact. It shouldn't check for this code except at key on (rationality between air box sensor and intake sensor).

Hope this helps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:13 am 
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MrMopar64 wrote:
The P0069 is related to the inlet pressure sensor which is located on the air box (it's the other sensor). Maybe the wiring got wet somehow inside the connector, or its loose, or some other trivial breakage.
It's a not-to-worry code, clear it and it shouldn't come back. I don't believe that sensor is expensive if that be the case.
I'd double check that the Boost Sensor in the intake manifold is clean and not gunked up, and that the wiring is otherwise intact. It shouldn't check for this code except at key on (rationality between air box sensor and intake sensor).
Hope this helps.


Thank you!
I've cleared the code. Will clean the MAP again (did it 2 weeks ago), check the wiring, check the sensor.
\
Ya, know, I'm beginning to wonder if I might be able to lower my blood pressure by yanking the CEL bulb. When the alternator charging issue got serious the other day, it wasn't the CEL that went off, it was a red lightning bolt lamp. When I had my overheating problem, the temp gauge showed it and the dinger started dinging. Gas, oil & heat: That is all I used to care about on my old Ford Maveric I had in HS. Other than that, I didn't mess with it until it didn't run right - and in this case I have the ECM to tell me what is wrong when it doesn't run right.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:11 pm 
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When my MAP sensor went out it threw code P0105 and when the MAF went out the code was P0101. Those codes might be backwards. but I think P0069 might be something different. I would try that sensor on the airbox first. Since you have 2 CRDs swapping the sensors would be easy to try if they would both run at the same time for you. :evil:

Jason

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:13 pm 
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Know what you mean friend - two most reliable vehicles I've had were also the cheapest and simplest (65 Mustang and 87 Subaru) - screwdriver, adjustable, and roll of duct tape were seemingly all it took to keep those beasts running.

The frustrations I experienced in the first 8 months of ownership, the CRD giving every indication at that point of being nothing but a perpetual service bay hangar queen - casting sand in the oil and cooling system, TC shudder, clogged fuel filters, misfiring due to air in that wonderful vacuum fuel system, TSB/reflash of the month, EGR and then glow plugs going out at 13K, ball joint recall - are what drove me to get the 87 MB diesel.

At the time, I was at the tipping point of eating the loss and trading the beast off. Three things - the Suncoast TC, the ORM, and lift pumps - we tumbled onto at just the right time to persuade me the beast was salvageable and worth keeping, and that as a community we'd eventually find solutions to some of the other PITA aspects of this vehicle as well.

But by then I had a reliable second diesel, simple enough to fix in the driveway with hand tools, and spare parts only a mouse click away. At that point, the CRD being down for maintenance or mods became a nuisance instead of a life-disrupting event.

But for someone that doesn't have the time or income (I'll be laid off myself come March 13th), I can see where dealing with the foibles of this beast would be a major headache and disruption. That's why I purchased the second '87 MB, to replace the wrecked one, when I did - the prospect of being potentially unemployed in the near future, with only the CRD to rely on, and the prospect of even more problems that haven't yet reared their head cropping up, left me a little concerned.

Not to say I don't consider it reliable after all the mods to it - I wouldn't hesitate to take it on a long trip, with nothing more than an oil change and basic check right now - let's just say that given it's history, I didn't like the odds of betting on it as the only horse in the stable - I wanted a backup plan.

A famous Starfleet engineer once said "The more complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". There are still times our CRD's prove that saying to be more than just a line in a movie.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:51 pm 
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retmil46 wrote:
Know what you mean friend - two most reliable vehicles I've had were also the cheapest and simplest (65 Mustang and 87 Subaru) - screwdriver, adjustable, and roll of duct tape were seemingly all it took to keep those beasts running.
The frustrations I experienced in the first 8 months of ownership, the CRD giving every indication at that point of being nothing but a perpetual service bay hangar queen - casting sand in the oil and cooling system, TC shudder, clogged fuel filters, misfiring due to air in that wonderful vacuum fuel system, TSB/reflash of the month, EGR and then glow plugs going out at 13K, ball joint recall - are what drove me to get the 87 MB diesel.
At the time, I was at the tipping point of eating the loss and trading the beast off. Three things - the Suncoast TC, the ORM, and lift pumps - we tumbled onto at just the right time to persuade me the beast was salvageable and worth keeping, and that as a community we'd eventually find solutions to some of the other PITA aspects of this vehicle as well.
But by then I had a reliable second diesel, simple enough to fix in the driveway with hand tools, and spare parts only a mouse click away. At that point, the CRD being down for maintenance or mods became a nuisance instead of a life-disrupting event.
But for someone that doesn't have the time or income (I'll be laid off myself come March 13th), I can see where dealing with the foibles of this beast would be a major headache and disruption. That's why I purchased the second '87 MB, to replace the wrecked one, when I did - the prospect of being potentially unemployed in the near future, with only the CRD to rely on, and the prospect of even more problems that haven't yet reared their head cropping up, left me a little concerned.
Not to say I don't consider it reliable after all the mods to it - I wouldn't hesitate to take it on a long trip, with nothing more than an oil change and basic check right now - let's just say that given it's history, I didn't like the odds of betting on it as the only horse in the stable - I wanted a backup plan.
A famous Starfleet engineer once said "The more complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". There are still times our CRD's prove that saying to be more than just a line in a movie.


Great post!
After reading your list of issues......I feel a bit better. :?
I looked into some of those older MB sedans - some are quite nice. Unfortunately, due to our driveway, it is either the CRD or a gasser 4wd such as the Subarus these replaced.
Aye, Scotty and his wonderful analogies. But in this case, I don't think the long list of issues with this car are necessarily due to complexity - complexity just makes it hard to work on and evaluate. In this case, I think we are mostly dealing with poor design decisions and poor quality. None of the issues you had or I'm experiencing are new or complex technologies; they are either inappropriate for this vehicle (torque converter, fuel line fittings, etc....) or poorly designed (EGR, fuel manager etc..) or quality issues (loose casting sand, broken fan clutch, alternator clutch, glow plugs etc.. etc..) Its as if no testing was ever done before they started building it and no quality checks were performed as they built it and no alterations were made based upon customer feedback once they did build it.

I just don't know when or if I should call it quits. I hate to think that I may get rid of these cars just at the point where I've finally worked through everything.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock


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 Post subject: Improper choices and overlooking the obvious by Chrysler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:17 pm 
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KeighJeigh wrote:
retmil46 wrote:
Know what you mean friend - two most reliable vehicles I've had were also the cheapest and simplest (65 Mustang and 87 Subaru) - screwdriver, adjustable, and roll of duct tape were seemingly all it took to keep those beasts running.
The frustrations I experienced in the first 8 months of ownership, the CRD giving every indication at that point of being nothing but a perpetual service bay hangar queen - casting sand in the oil and cooling system, TC shudder, clogged fuel filters, misfiring due to air in that wonderful vacuum fuel system, TSB/reflash of the month, EGR and then glow plugs going out at 13K, ball joint recall - are what drove me to get the 87 MB diesel.
At the time, I was at the tipping point of eating the loss and trading the beast off. Three things - the Suncoast TC, the ORM, and lift pumps - we tumbled onto at just the right time to persuade me the beast was salvageable and worth keeping, and that as a community we'd eventually find solutions to some of the other PITA aspects of this vehicle as well.
But by then I had a reliable second diesel, simple enough to fix in the driveway with hand tools, and spare parts only a mouse click away. At that point, the CRD being down for maintenance or mods became a nuisance instead of a life-disrupting event.
But for someone that doesn't have the time or income (I'll be laid off myself come March 13th), I can see where dealing with the foibles of this beast would be a major headache and disruption. That's why I purchased the second '87 MB, to replace the wrecked one, when I did - the prospect of being potentially unemployed in the near future, with only the CRD to rely on, and the prospect of even more problems that haven't yet reared their head cropping up, left me a little concerned.
Not to say I don't consider it reliable after all the mods to it - I wouldn't hesitate to take it on a long trip, with nothing more than an oil change and basic check right now - let's just say that given it's history, I didn't like the odds of betting on it as the only horse in the stable - I wanted a backup plan.
A famous Starfleet engineer once said "The more complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". There are still times our CRD's prove that saying to be more than just a line in a movie.


Great post!
After reading your list of issues......I feel a bit better. :?
I looked into some of those older MB sedans - some are quite nice. Unfortunately, due to our driveway, it is either the CRD or a gasser 4wd such as the Subarus these replaced.
Aye, Scotty and his wonderful analogies. But in this case, I don't think the long list of issues with this car are necessarily due to complexity - complexity just makes it hard to work on and evaluate. In this case, I think we are mostly dealing with poor design decisions and poor quality. None of the issues you had or I'm experiencing are new or complex technologies; they are either inappropriate for this vehicle (torque converter, fuel line fittings, etc....) or poorly designed (EGR, fuel manager etc..) or quality issues (loose casting sand, broken fan clutch, alternator clutch, glow plugs etc.. etc..) Its as if no testing was ever done before they started building it and no quality checks were performed as they built it and no alterations were made based upon customer feedback once they did build it.

I just don't know when or if I should call it quits. I hate to think that I may get rid of these cars just at the point where I've finally worked through everything.


I deal with Engineering Snaffoos on a regular basis. The CRD forum of L.O.S.T. has discovered, exposed, and documented these Snaffoos very well. IN my job, I am fixing a misconfiguration problem by using a bucket and pouring water onto the trash. We adjust the PLC timers and other functions based upon the obvious observation of what the trash in the bucket looks like.
Vacuum leaks, loose connectors, leaving out essential components to cut costs, hanging on unneeded components because some engineer though that is what the Governments wanted, elected officials basing some laws on fact and others on junk science with no pear review system set up, not holding outside vendors to quality standards have resulted in the problems members have had. We should all be glad to have this forum to share out findings and solve our performance problems.
Good luck, may your diagnosis be quick and the fix cheap.

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Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:36 pm 
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I just took my CRD into the shop after loss of power and not able to get up past 15mph. Accelerator pedal was mush with no acceleration. All things checked out by shop and only came up with and I quote:
"Code P0096-MAP BARO sensor correlation. Technician tested MAP and baro sensors and read live data, When vechicle is having issue above the MAP sensor reads 35 inches of vacuum and doesn't change under acceleration. Removed the air intake tube and inspected the MAF sensor, MAF was found to be dirty, cleaned MAF sensor and retested. Still same symptoms, researched condition and found no information of concern, checked for TSB's, none found. Talked to manufacturer for any computer issues related to the symptoms, none found. Could resolve issue by turning off engine in drive, then restart in neutral. Vehicle would perform as normal. When performing normal, MAP vacuumm would rise under turbo boost. Technician believes the MAP is intermittently failing, but cannot prove the condition."

Sorry this is so long...I just wanted everyone to have the full scoop. Anyone have any ideas, I would be greatful! Thanks for such a great site!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:40 pm 
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griznhoney wrote:
I just took my CRD into the shop after loss of power and not able to get up past 15mph. Accelerator pedal was mush with no acceleration. All things checked out by shop and only came up with and I quote:
"Code P0096-MAP BARO sensor correlation. Technician tested MAP and baro sensors and read live data, When vechicle is having issue above the MAP sensor reads 35 inches of vacuum and doesn't change under acceleration. Removed the air intake tube and inspected the MAF sensor, MAF was found to be dirty, cleaned MAF sensor and retested. Still same symptoms, researched condition and found no information of concern, checked for TSB's, none found. Talked to manufacturer for any computer issues related to the symptoms, none found. Could resolve issue by turning off engine in drive, then restart in neutral. Vehicle would perform as normal. When performing normal, MAP vacuumm would rise under turbo boost. Technician believes the MAP is intermittently failing, but cannot prove the condition."

Sorry this is so long...I just wanted everyone to have the full scoop. Anyone have any ideas, I would be greatful! Thanks for such a great site!


The MAP signal was cutting out so they cleaned the MAF? That's funny. Get a new MAP sensor, the one that plugs into the top of the engine, in the aluminum intake manifold. Should be about $50. There is a part number posted somewhere in this forum.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:51 pm 
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Think so, huh? Well I guess I will belly up to the bar and buy one. I hate to just replace things.....it's really weird that I can kill the engine in drive, shift it to Neutral and start the engine, put it into drive and take off like a bat-outa-hell....like nothing was wrong..only to have it start doing it again as soon as start it again...or two times later....weird!

Thanks!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:10 am 
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Perhaps if I cleaned the MAP? He cleaned the MAF, but never touched the MAP..... anyone...anyone.... :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:46 am 
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griznhoney wrote:
Perhaps if I cleaned the MAP? He cleaned the MAF, but never touched the MAP..... anyone...anyone.... :roll:

From what I've learned in the past year here: If in doubt, clean the MAP. It takes 5 minutes and appears to be the source of a number of problems. I clean both of mine about once per month - although I am beginning to get a bit concerned about how many times I can clean them before they will need replacement.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock


Last edited by KeighJeigh on Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Improper choices and overlooking the obvious by Chrysler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:58 am 
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warp2diesel wrote:
I deal with Engineering Snaffoos on a regular basis. The CRD forum of L.O.S.T. has discovered, exposed, and documented these Snaffoos very well. IN my job, I am fixing a misconfiguration problem by using a bucket and pouring water onto the trash. We adjust the PLC timers and other functions based upon the obvious observation of what the trash in the bucket looks like.
Vacuum leaks, loose connectors, leaving out essential components to cut costs, hanging on unneeded components because some engineer though that is what the Governments wanted, elected officials basing some laws on fact and others on junk science with no pear review system set up, not holding outside vendors to quality standards have resulted in the problems members have had. We should all be glad to have this forum to share out findings and solve our performance problems.
Good luck, may your diagnosis be quick and the fix cheap.

When employed, that sounds very close to what I do as a manufacturing engineer specializing in Lean Manufacturing. I've also been a quality manager at a nuclear technology company as well as a designer for consumer products. I've even designed and built equipment, programmed PLCs...all of it. But most of the time, I was cleaning up other people's messes due to basic design-for-manufacturability issues and poor quality programs.
The last company I worked for was a major supplier of controls and switches for Boeing, Airbus and the military. If people only knew the cr@p that went on in that factory...geeezz. I examined field failures on tanks and armored vehicles that were due directly to our design and quality defects and on some of them, probably contributed to loss of life. On several occasions I pulled product off the shop floor that was purposely being manufactured waaaay out of tolerance because the designs were so poor they could not be made to tolerance. (Title blocks on drawings were actually defaulted to .001 - even on rubber gaskets - and "just to be safe" it was rarely challenged by design engineers.) In other cases, we could make product to tolerance but often skipped critical quality checks because the people on the floor were pushed to hurry things up due to over-booked orders. This not-so-gentle persuasion was usually conducted by management behind my back because they knew I had the legal requirement and thus authority to stop it. As quality manager in the nuclear technology company (the most stressful job of my life) I was interviewed by the CIA, the FBI as well as the Navy and told I would be potentially jailed if I knowingly allowed defective product to leave the factory. Even with that, on several occasions, I actually got into trouble by upper management for pulling product. They had late orders to fill and by golly that was that.

Sometimes the fault lay with the military or airplane companies asking for things that could not be made, but most of the time it was due to our sales staff doing whatever was necessary to secure contracts. Down the line, our designers often worked without seriously questioning anything - afraid of losing their jobs if they did. The shop was inevitably left with the mess and blamed if it didn't turn out well. However, ultimately, the mess starts at the top and comes down to corporate culture and the short-sighted focus on quarterly reports to shareholders. I even got laid off once where the reasoning from the president was that he had promised 18% that quarter and it was only going to be 12% so he had to get rid of a bunch of staff to help make up for it. This guy was the worlds biggest weasel, but I gave him credit for at least being honest.

I have no doubt the CRD was caught up in one of these tangled webs of mismanagement and because I'm so familiar with what goes on behind the curtains, I probably get more pisssed off than most.
(BTW: Yes, examining the scrap bin can certainly tell you a lot about what is going on and I would bet the scrap bin on the CRD line was piled high. Oh, wait, maybe not! It appears the scrap bin was bolted onto the frame of my car.)

Nonetheless, I like the car: It handles fairly well for what it is, the rattly diesel is kind of fun, it has a lot of pull power for a small SUV, it gets OK mileage, it has higher than average (car) 4X4 capabilities, it is unique, and once I get my home brew system perfected, can burn home made fuel. But the quality problems are unacceptably numerous - and far, far worse than any car I've owned before. I have often wondered what it must be like for someone who does not know how to wrench on cars to own one of these. It has been difficult enough for me even with this (lifesaver) forum. But if I had no tools and diligently took it to the shop each time the CEL flashed on, I would be in the shop constantly and once the worthless warranty ran out, it would cost me a fortune to keep these things on the road.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:21 am 
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If you see an electrical storm coming.....get indoors quick.

I'd also avoid air-travel as this seems to be crash season.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:09 am 
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Location: Issaquah, WA
Sir Sam wrote:
If you see an electrical storm coming.....get indoors quick.
I'd also avoid air-travel as this seems to be crash season.
:shock: :lol:
Good advice.

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2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
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2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:41 am 
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Location: Southeastern, PA
Ah now more of us are in the same boat!! I HAVE BEEN FIGHTING this exact same issue for close to a year now. MAP sensor P0069 MAP/Baro correal error, intermittent no power (boost pressure dead), dead pedal.

MAF sensor is in the airbox...it's the cheap one of the two that meters fuel and/or boost

MAP sensor is on the intake manifold....it's mucho expensive and I CAN'T find one anywhere except Chysler for $320!!! :twisted: BTW; Bosch + DCX= RIPOFF


Does anyone want a 2006 Limited all options with 44000 miles??

back to VW for me

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Last edited by DDom on Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Log what you have learned...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:49 am 
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...it will make you a better engineer :!: I never though my knowledge of gelling, cloud points, and transfat would ever apply to my job, but it is and this knowledge is saving our butts and the butts of the company who buys our machines and puts their name on them.

The most dangerous engineer has no personal toys or hobbies, the customers pay for the toys and have to live with them.

Don't let the Witches and Warlocks in HR get you down, feel sorry for them, what else can they do besides be jerks and idiots :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle


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