My unrealistic expectations and my KK's failure (pic added).

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:20 pm

***Update: Pictures below...***

Before I start...let me say that I have little to no buyers remorse. I love my Jeep, and my chest swells with pride every time I drive it.

However, one of the reasons I bought this vehicle (vs. a RAV4, CRV, etc, etc.) is for its capability. Specifically, I wanted to be able to take the vehicle up to my cabin during the winter and not get stuck in the driveway. This weekend counts as a major failure on that level.

Now, to be fair, there was quite a bit of snow. Further, the driveway is 3 or 4 football fields long. Complicating things worse is that in the last few years, the town has taken to having a snow plow clean the dirt road that leads up the mountain to my cottage...leaving a mountain (in its own right) of snow in front of my driveway.

So, I go up there and have a shovel with me, knowing full well that even a Wrangler isn't climbing that snow mound from the plow. Turns out, my Liberty wasn't going too far beyond where I shoveled.....so it was a nice walk to the camp in the dark carrying luggage, groceries, and all of my girlfriend's stuff too through snow that was at times knee high.

The scenario was: 4-lo, ESP off...brake lock diffs where absolutely useless. Oh they kicked in... sounded as if my vehicle was falling apart, but they could not encourage the Jeep to continue forward motion. Tried again in 4-auto with ESP off and a head of steam....no go.

So, I'm thinking there are three problems and you can all guess what they are: lack of ground clearance, lousy tires, and no locking diff. In my opinion, a lift and some all-terrain would have really added my situation, because the snow was pretty high. Also, I think a real locker is needed for this vehicle to go anywhere in the deep snow situations. Those BLD's may be fun for a slight slip in dirt, but they couldn't keep up with the lack of traction I ran into.

I'll be posting pics so you guys can get a feel for what the KK will not do. Hey, maybe I'm a rookie, but I was hoping for just a bit more in terms of traction. I thought I'd be able to keep traction and slowly bulldoze my way through the drifts that were a bit high. Very curious for feedback....and even more curious to see how my vehicle will stack up to the winter next year after it is lifted and has meatier rubber...maybe even a locker.

MtnLuvr · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:33 pm

unclejjg, sorry to hear about your disappointment.

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:40 pm

MtnLuvr wrote:

unclejjg, sorry to hear about your disappointment.

Yeah...its okay though. I'm not down on the vehicle, I just hoped for more. I'm thinking an H3 or a Wrangler would have made it further if not all the way up the driveway.....well, realistically we can't put the Liberty up against those vehicles. I guess what kind of frosts my bum is that a Patriot with FDII could have gotten me where I ended up for less money and better mileage.

Again, I'm not saying I'd purchase the Patriot over the Liberty if you gave me my money back, but one of the determining factors to get the Liberty was that it had a bit more capability.

If anything, this reinforces my urge to modify my vehicle and take advantage of its potential as opposed to its current capability.

MtnLuvr · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:43 pm

Time to be the first (?) to install that 2.5" JBA lift? And then some larger, and better gripping, tires?

yjtj · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:44 pm

why would you shut the esp off. it is supposed to help. as far as the liberty in the snow, it is great. i live in the snow belt south of you were we get way more snow and i have not had a problem getting through the 3 foot deep drifts in my driveway from the plow. you just need more speed:) tire tread and ground clearance is a big deal. as far as ground clearance goes, the difference between a stock tire and a 33 is only a couple of inches, all the lift in the world wont raise your diff. you can expect any vehicle to do only so much.

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:46 pm

MtnLuvr wrote:

Time to be the first (?) to install that 2.5" JBA lift? And then some larger, and better gripping, tires?

To be sure...there is no debate there, its just a matter of time. I get the feeling you and E2 are just waiting for me to install and report back that my wheels haven't fallen off before you guys step up and get one too!

All joking aside, I'm really stoked to slap that kit on my KK soon. It's not even funds that are holding me back...its just hooking up with a guy that will install it.

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:53 pm

yjtj wrote:

why would you shut the esp off. it is supposed to help. as far as the liberty in the snow, it is great. i live in the snow belt south of you were we get way more snow and i have not had a problem getting through the 3 foot deep drifts in my driveway from the plow. you just need more speed:) tire tread and ground clearance is a big deal. as far as ground clearance goes, the difference between a stock tire and a 33 is only a couple of inches, all the lift in the world wont raise your diff. you can expect any vehicle to do only so much.

Well, yjtj...my camp is south of Dansville, NY near, but even south of Hornell. That's the "mountainous" area of the Southern Tier, so we get our fair share of snow.

As for shutting off the ESP:
a.) it shuts off automatically in 4-lo
b.) it only shuts off the stability control part....not the traction control or the Brake Locking Differentials.

The benefit is that when it is off, it doesn't shut down your throttle when you are accelerating and slipping...it just mimics a limited slip diff.

As for gunning it, that would have really screwed me. First, it is up hill to start the driveway, and there is a bit of a cliff on either side...not something you want to be pulling a Dukes of Hazard on. Second, its no good for me to gun it and get 20 ft in and then get stuck. The momentum would have played itself out long before I made any useful progress. Again, 3 or 4 football fields to the house.

I also agree with your assessment of bigger tires will only lift the diff so high, but I think if I can get the rest of the vehicle up a bit, the low hanging diff should kind of plow through the soft snow without really hanging me up. On rocks and ruts the diff might be more of a problem, but I don't think a bit of snow should be holding the vehicle back.

MtnLuvr · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:19 pm

unclejjg wrote:

MtnLuvr wrote:

Time to be the first (?) to install that 2.5" JBA lift? And then some larger, and better gripping, tires?

To be sure...there is no debate there, its just a matter of time. I get the feeling you and E2 are just waiting for me to install and report back that my wheels haven't fallen off before you guys step up and get one too!

All joking aside, I'm really stoked to slap that kit on my KK soon. It's not even funds that are holding me back...its just hooking up with a guy that will install it.

There's one more thing holding me back, I don't have my Liberty KK yet! :lol:

I hope to have it by the end of this February.

I wish some of the companies who have made products for the Liberty KJ would realize there are Liberty KK owners now who are not constrained by funds and want to modify their KKs.

Boblemoche · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:28 pm

FYI a patriot with FDII cost as much as a liberty and the mileage is as bad. I considered this veichle before buying and on a patriot forum many people said if you want fdII buy a liberty : better offroad, real 2 spd T case , rear solid axle , bigger tires, more interior space, same mileage and price.

on your liberty you can add F&R arb air lockers, 4'' lift and at least 32'' tires and it will still be cheaper than a rubicon/H3 yet you will have more ground clerance

also you will go nowhere with the stock tires period. last year I couldnt climb a small hill in 4lo on 6'' snow. Get rid of them asap, they will kill you :lol:

from the short amount of time I used esp, I found that the brake limited slip kinda suck if your in 4hi because it puts too much load on the engine so so if one wheel slip and the other is not turning then esp apply brake on the spinning wheel so then no wheels turn

even when you press the no esp button. In 4lo it does help but not much and you really have to step on the skinny pedal to make it work.

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:33 pm

MtnLuvr wrote:

unclejjg wrote:

MtnLuvr wrote:

Time to be the first (?) to install that 2.5" JBA lift? And then some larger, and better gripping, tires?

To be sure...there is no debate there, its just a matter of time. I get the feeling you and E2 are just waiting for me to install and report back that my wheels haven't fallen off before you guys step up and get one too!

All joking aside, I'm really stoked to slap that kit on my KK soon. It's not even funds that are holding me back...its just hooking up with a guy that will install it.

There's one more thing holding me back, I don't have my Liberty KK yet! :lol:

I hope to have it by the end of this February.

I wish some of the companies who have made products for the Liberty KJ would realize there are Liberty KK owners now who are not constrained by funds and want to modify their KKs.

I agree wholeheartedly, but we are biased. It is comparable to pharmaceutical companies not making medicine for some little known disease that only 10,000 people world wide suffer from: sure, there may be 10 - 15 people who could/would pay $50,000 not to be eaten alive from the inside out from some weird bacteria....but the other 9,985 people would not be enough business to make back the $5 mil in R&D to develop the medicine.

Right now, us KK guys fall into that category....you, me, Digger, and a couple others are ready and raring to go, but as the reps from ARB said: we need at least 75 orders before we produce anything. Well, I say good luck on that for a while.

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:38 pm

Boblemoche wrote:

FYI a patriot with FDII cost as much as a liberty and the mileage is as bad. I considered this veichle before buying and on a patriot forum many people said if you want fdII buy a liberty : better offroad, real 2 spd T case , rear solid axle , bigger tires, more interior space, same mileage and price.

on your liberty you can add F&R arb air lockers, 4'' lift and at least 32'' tires and it will still be cheaper than a rubicon/H3 yet you will have more ground clerance

also you will go nowhere with the stock tires period. last year I couldnt climb a small hill in 4lo on 6'' snow. Get rid of them asap, they will kill you :lol:

from the short amount of time I used esp, I found that the brake limited slip kinda suck if your in 4hi because it puts too much load on the engine so so if one wheel slip and the other is not turning then esp apply brake on the spinning wheel so then no wheels turn

even when you press the no esp button. In 4lo it does help but not much and you really have to step on the skinny pedal to make it work.

Agreed on the Patriot...I spent 2 years on jeeppatriot.com before deciding it wasn't the vehicle for me. Besides, I like this forum way better.

I'm pretty sure I'll opt for the rear ARB locker after I get a lift....maybe the same time. Still up in the air (pun intended) on that one.

As for tires, those bad boys are going asal(as soon as lift). By the way, I patented that one so you clowns can't steal it...ASAL. Bumper stickers will be available shortly.

MtnLuvr · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:38 pm

unclejjg wrote:

MtnLuvr wrote:

unclejjg wrote:

MtnLuvr wrote:

Time to be the first (?) to install that 2.5" JBA lift? And then some larger, and better gripping, tires?

To be sure...there is no debate there, its just a matter of time. I get the feeling you and E2 are just waiting for me to install and report back that my wheels haven't fallen off before you guys step up and get one too!

All joking aside, I'm really stoked to slap that kit on my KK soon. It's not even funds that are holding me back...its just hooking up with a guy that will install it.

There's one more thing holding me back, I don't have my Liberty KK yet! :lol:

I hope to have it by the end of this February.

I wish some of the companies who have made products for the Liberty KJ would realize there are Liberty KK owners now who are not constrained by funds and want to modify their KKs.

I agree wholeheartedly, but we are biased. It is comparable to pharmaceutical companies not making medicine for some little known disease that only 10,000 people world wide suffer from: sure, there may be 10 - 15 people who could/would pay $50,000 not to be eaten alive from the inside out from some weird bacteria....but the other 9,985 people would not be enough business to make back the $5 mil in R&D to develop the medicine.

Right now, us KK guys fall into that category....you, me, Digger, and a couple others are ready and raring to go, but as the reps from ARB said: we need at least 75 orders before we produce anything. Well, I say good luck on that for a while.

Unfortunately, :cry:

, I understand. I hope if we keep drumming for products and rallying the ever-increasing pool of KKers that we'll (eventually) wind up with some KK-specific products we can spend our money on (other than one-off custom fabrication work which I'm already thinking I'll be paying for later this summer due to lacking products).

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:43 pm

MtnLuvr wrote:

Unfortunately, :cry:

, I understand. I hope if we keep drumming for products and rallying the ever-increasing pool of KKers that we'll (eventually) wind up with some KK-specific products we can spend our money on (other than one-off custom fabrication work which I'm already thinking I'll be paying for later this summer due to lacking products).

I'll tell you when it going to happen.....once the majority of KJ loyalist need to trade in their vehicle. Sure, we'll lose a few of them to 4-door Wranglers, but I think that we'll get a boost when they switch generations and pick up a new KK. Then the aftermarket will have to pay attention.

MtnLuvr · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:11 pm

unclejjg wrote:

MtnLuvr wrote:

Unfortunately, :cry:

, I understand. I hope if we keep drumming for products and rallying the ever-increasing pool of KKers that we'll (eventually) wind up with some KK-specific products we can spend our money on (other than one-off custom fabrication work which I'm already thinking I'll be paying for later this summer due to lacking products).

I'll tell you when it going to happen.....once the majority of KJ loyalist need to trade in their vehicle. Sure, we'll lose a few of them to 4-door Wranglers, but I think that we'll get a boost when they switch generations and pick up a new KK. Then the aftermarket will have to pay attention.

I hear ya and I agree at some point KK sales will benefit from KJ owners switching to the new model. It kinda seems like a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" kinda deal, as if I currently owned an off-road modified KJ, I think it would be hard for me to consider switching to a KK until I knew I could easily make the same type of off-road modifications (via aftermarket supplied parts) to the Liberty KK.

It ain't easy being an "early adopter"....

yjtj · **Posted:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:24 pm

at the rate our economy is going half the companies making aftermarket products will be gone in 6 months and you will never get any aftermarket parts. thats the sad truth.

RkyMtnKJ · **Posted:** Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:25 am

well i understand your frustration. When i first got my liberty the stock tires were horrible. During the winter i was doing all i can just to stay straight on the road. I can tell you that getting an aggressive A.T tire will greatly help your ability to pave a path in some fresh powder. My BFG ATs do a great job in 6-12in. of snow. Granted the more snow, the more my undercarriage mimics a grader's blade. So a lift will help in that aspect but i think the most helpful modification would be to get some tires that can increase traction in the snow :wink:

Guest · **Posted:** Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:03 pm

unclejjg wrote:

MtnLuvr wrote:

Unfortunately, :cry:

, I understand. I hope if we keep drumming for products and rallying the ever-increasing pool of KKers that we'll (eventually) wind up with some KK-specific products we can spend our money on (other than one-off custom fabrication work which I'm already thinking I'll be paying for later this summer due to lacking products).

I'll tell you when it going to happen.....once the majority of KJ loyalist need to trade in their vehicle. Sure, we'll lose a few of them to 4-door Wranglers, but I think that we'll get a boost when they switch generations and pick up a new KK. Then the aftermarket will have to pay attention.

Most of us KJers probably won't trade in our Jeeps until the KL is out :lol:

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:36 pm

Okay the following pictures are basically re-enactments. I was never stuck to the point where I couldn't reverse...I just couldn't proceed forward. It wasn't until after I had pulled away and headed down the dirt road on my way home until my girlfriend told me she had her camera....so, I turned around and went back for your viewing pleasure.

This pic shows a front view. You can see the outline of my dirty tire from where it spent the night:

The following two are side views:

These two are views that show how high the snow stacked below the vehicle:

This one shows the camp...really doesn't do justice to the length of the driveway:

unclejjg · **Posted:** Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:54 pm

Here is a show-off pic during the summer at the camp:

....more to follow this summer when I take my Jeep on the trails.

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:07 pm

it's all in the tires... The KK would have no problem if you had something other than they crap years

My unrealistic expectations and my KK's failure (pic added).

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