geordi: I am glad to see that coking is not a problem on our CRDs. Exhaust turbines are friction welded onto the shaft. Either the shaft or the turbine is mounted in a fly wheel and revved up to a calculated RPM. The other is mounted in a fixed holding fixture and rammed onto the moving part with a calculated force. The steel alloy melts and the two friction weld them selves together.

Now, can you tell where the shaft failed or did the weld break?

You would not stand a rats @$$ chance in #ell getting Garrett to help pay, since they can claim you over revved the turbo by using Bio or some other Acid Trip defense. All you could hope to get is if it is a QC related problem or related to towing. Based upon the photos so far the jury is leaning to a QC cause. A good photo of the break will confirm and close out the verdict.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Hmm, I wasn't aware that I COULD even get any help from Garrett on this, but regarding bogus defenses... Yea, I'm well familiar with them. I ACTUALLY had VW try to tell me one time that the failure of a fuel temp sensor (inside the injection pump) was caused by the car's COLOR.

Anyway, there is no way that this turbo was over-revved ever, unless it managed to do it by itself. The CRD has all stock parts, and nothing has been modified to operate outside it's stock limitations. Mostly, b/c I haven't yet replaced the torque converter, and I don't want to hurt that by making too much power. When I tow stuff, I'm not slammin gears and pour-and-floor on it, I'm driving easier - better mileage that way. I'm in no hurry when pulling, b/c my trailers don't have brakes, so I have to be more careful. Further, after towing for a long time on the highway, when I pull off for fuel / food / etc... I usually leave it running so that the oil continues to circulate, even while fueling. This should not have happened, IMHO.

The oil may have been due for a change, but it wasn't OVERdue, and I ONLY run Mobil 1 Delvac synth. That stuff is the best that I have found anywhere.

I'm going to perform a more thorough autopsy tomorrow, I plan to completely dissassemble the housing as much as I can and photo everything. I am still planning on some form of a bypass for the oil line so that I can get the CRD mobile again, but it's nice to think that once I contact Garrett on Monday that I might learn about a more affordable option. What kind of warranty do they have for an OEM unit? Wouldn't they expect the OEM themselves to pick up the coverage? Cuz if that is the case... I'm shafted.

Ok, LOTS more pictures now. These are the most descriptive, let me know if there is something specific you would like to see that I missed, and I'll shoot it.

Biggest thing: I don't know DIDDLY about the internal part names on this stuff, and how they are supposed to look. The only guess I can make is that everything *should* be as smooth as the compressor side was. No metal contact on that side that I could see, but the vanes are still stuck to the center body. Can't budge them at all.

Here is the exhaust side in all it's mess:








Yea... So, thoughts? What am I looking at here? What the heck happened?

....also the bearing surface is badly worn. You can see where it fatigued before it snapped in two. If the compressor turbine has not kissed the housing, I suspect the exhaust turbine was knocked out of balance causing the exhaust side bearing to overload and burn up. As the bearing wore, the oil slingers (look like washers) started rubbing and trashed out as well. Then your oil blew into the exhaust until you shut it down.

Things that can cause your kind of exhaust turbine failure:
1) Object hitting the turbine fins and cracking them or breaking a piece off. Piece of casting flash in the manifold that let loose or damage when engine was installed in the Jeep, a Long shot.
2) Corrosion of the turbine blades due to not protecting the turbo when transported by sea. I have two junk turbos I recovered with this problem one has a bad compressor turbine and the other a bad exhaust turbine. I suspect this is a likely cause of your problem. I can't get to the turbos and take any pics to show you, sorry.

I would be tempted to put a cap on the oil line to the turbo and briefly start the engine to blow any debris out of the exhaust manifold. Short piece of fuel line, a bolt, and two clamps will work. I would use the compressor side of the turbo to have the air cleaner hooked up to do this and put a piece of sheet metal to keep the exhaust off the plastic parts under the hood.
I don't know if the other sensors can be over ridden to do this, MrMopar or GMCTD may know. If you can hook up all of the sensors, it should not be an issue.

If you can't start the engine before you have a new turbo to install, I would be tempted to pull the exhaust manifold, tape up the runners going to the head, drop in about 6 -5/16" nuts, tape up the other openings and shake and rattle it hard to try to knock off any junk in the inside of the manifold, count the nuts when you are done. I was given this trick by a fabricator who made custom exhaust manifolds for turbochargers, I did it on the Custom Turbo manifold I built years ago and I ran the car for over 250,000 miles on the used turbo with out a problem.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Man, that's one messed up turbo. I didn't realize that we had a VGT (variable geometry turbo) turbo but by the looks of that ist picture in the last group, it looks like we do. The veins open and close depending on the speed/airflow. Is this a good description?

_________________
Solar Yellow 2001 TJ Sport 4.0 auto 4X4
White 2006 Liberty Limited 2.8 CRD 4X4...SOLD 4-21-2012

That HAD to make some noise before failure.

_________________
Feb/2006 Silver Sport 4x4 CRD

PLEASE describe for me the kind of noises I should have heard.

The only thing I have been hearing for weeks before this was a VERY steady-state tone at 60mph. I determined that it is being caused by air moving around my CB antenna, but I could be wrong somehow. All I know is when I knocked the antenna over, the noise stopped. Lifting my foot off the go-pedal at the same speed did NOTHING to the sound however. That (for me) eliminated the possibility that the engine / transmission was causing it. Since the turbo is never in a steady-speed operation, I'd say this noise wasn't from that either.

At low speeds (15-20mph) if I lift my foot off the pedal, I get a nice spin-down type sound which I believe is the normal turbo sound. It's not that loud, but it can be heard.

As for Thursday when this happened... The ONLY sounds I heard were after the power loss I felt. I thought at the time that the engine must have dropped into limp mode again due to a clogging fuel filter, and that was when I started hearing the rattling. At that point, I guess it was already over for the turbo.

I don't believe that this was anything other than a catastrophic and rapid detonation, rather than a slow degradation over time.

Well, I am both mortified and anxiously waiting the results from our jeep dealer.

We lost the turbo on Friday. We drove it to the dealer (their suggestion) on saturday.

It went, slowly, and it spewed black smoke that didn't smell diesel-y... so I think it was oil.

Ok well the other half just called. Here is what I've been told:

Turbo Line leak of some kind, they can't fix it because they don't have a diesel tech and it has to go to (shocker) the dealer we hate to get it worked on.

They're working with the warranty company about towing it.

I feel FSCKED....

_________________
1998 VW New Beetle TDI & 2006 Jetta TDI Manual
No more: 2005 Stone White Liberty CRD
Powered in part by Biodiesel and Open Source Software.

Wait now... You lost yours this past Friday? Mine went on Thursday!

How did yours fail out? I was at 65mph or so, passing someone when I simply felt a power loss, and started hearing things rattle about 30 seconds later or so.

You can see the results of mine above, not pretty. Hopefully you still have a warranty, DCX decided to give me a Christmas gift of "no more warranty for YOU" BS. Lucky me, and here is something that they might have actually covered. *sigh*

That won't work, you need to physically block the air going into the engine to stop a run-away. Nothing else will do.

_________________
'05 Liberty CRD B100, SEGR - SOLD

'01 Beetle TDi B100, EGR delete
'83 Mercedes 240D B100, no EGR

--- SEGR Builder ---

Could lack of engine oil have caused this? If I remember rightly, the turbo is lubed by an oil line from and two the engine. Could this also have been the idiotic theory behind running oil into the turbo from the engine?

Sorry to hear of the trouble....

_________________
Jim

2005 Liberty Sport Stone White
SAMCO Hoses
Provent
HHO System
In-line thermo
'95 Moto Guzzi California 1100

I learn more from my struggles than that which comes easy......

That shaft breakage was likely caused by over-spinning, exceeding turbine-wheel rpm limits - a Boost guage would have revealed this early on - the vanes are stuck in the position that diverts max exhaust gasses into the turbine fan at low engine rpm where exhaust energy is low, required to quickly spool-up the gas-turbine motor to create off-idle low-rpm Boost - unfortunately, being stuck in that position causes max exhaust energy thru the fan at all engine rpm and power levels, where exhaust energy is great - normally, ECM flattens the vanes as exhaust energy increases, diverting exhaust energy around the fan, varying Boost to meet demand - this is a major problem with the VVT\VNT turbos, resulting from accumulated soot and carbonization - many have been replaced during the warranty period due to the stuck vane problem

Opposite symptom with vanes stuck closed would be slow spool-up causing no off-idle Boost, sluggish Boost response as rpm increases to upper rpm

Be interesting to see the compressor-end shaft and bushing

Prolly wouldn't hurt for anyone following this thread to go out and test the actuator rod for full travel - if it binds at any point, start the engine, use the vacuum line on the actuator to work it upards'n'downards till it frees up - can also manually work it free, if necessary, won't damage anything

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

JM: The oil leak was not a cause, it was a result of the shaft separation. It pumped a bunch of the oil out into the exhaust, enough to lower the level below the dipstick.

GMCTD: I don't know for normally, but the vacuum adjustment arm of the VNT moved smoothly once I pulled the unit (I didn't even touch it while it was in the engine) and the inner ring and vanes moved easily too. I don't believe this was a cause, but I could be wrong. A new one is not going to go in without being followed by analog boost and EGT gauges.

On that note... Does anyone have an extra turbo laying around? I'm not thrilled about paying $800 for a new one from Mopar.

Apparently I was unclear, I'll barney it for ya.

It was an oil fed runaway directly into the intake via a grapefruit sized hoze held in place by 2 inch wide screw down hose clamps

remove source of oil/air mixture removes runaway condition, a diesel spinning redline will burn off adequate residue oil in about half a second

I would Imagine that the CRD has an air cutoff valve in the form of a closeable butterfly, in which case you'd use that. That particular izuzu was too old to have a full air cutoff valve in any modern form adequate enough to stop a turbo fed oil drive runaway therefore the only solution was to remove the hose which was the only solution that would allow you to stop more than 70% airflow due to the design of the butterfly, regardless, removing the fuel source stopped the runaway

I believe you misunderstood the actual situation, try not to contradict people who were actually the mechanic and not speaking theoretically or on hearsay, instead ask for clarification if the person wasn't clear. It would be rather insulting. But seeing how we don't know each other I guess I'm not insulted

Should I have tried to cram my hand over the grapefruit sized air intake on the airfilter canister mounted on the front of the boxbed which most likley leaks enough air to continue running away regardless, perhaps I was in gross error removing the source of air and fuel oil

Maybe it would be a good idea if one of those who are intimately familiar with the CRD's pointed out the ACV location for those unfamilar with it's location on the CRD should they ever need to know.

edit : geordi i'm really sorry if this hijacked, I appologize and I really hope you're able to get your Jeep back going ASAP!!

_________________
03 Renegade (Black)
177k miles 3.7L gas - 45RFE
Command Trac / 4.10s
Lift: ft. 790+ rr. JBA4+
The last of the TrailReady Front&Rear Bumpers and TR Rock Rails
Jarhead Offroad light covers
31x10.5R15 RedLetter Grabbers on Blackrock Dunes
L.O.S.T #KD098632

still offtopic - but I think the oil fed runaway's that the Tdi folks are familiar with - are due to broken oil control rings on the pistons i.e. boost hose might slow it down - but it wouldn't stop it.

however the boost hose would be a proper response to a leaking turbo.

however Cummins does not have a FCV and I think someone said their recommended shutdown was CO2 fire extinguister in the intake.

_________________
2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

never tried it, but halon should choke it too, correct?

_________________
03 Renegade (Black)
177k miles 3.7L gas - 45RFE
Command Trac / 4.10s
Lift: ft. 790+ rr. JBA4+
The last of the TrailReady Front&Rear Bumpers and TR Rock Rails
Jarhead Offroad light covers
31x10.5R15 RedLetter Grabbers on Blackrock Dunes
L.O.S.T #KD098632

Halon would replace the air. No air, no fire. A CO2 extinguisher down the throat would also do the same thing, as would an argon welding gas bottle.

The TDI runaways I have heard people talk about could be caused (never did hear a direct account of any that DID happen) by the turbo failing into the compressor side instead of the exhaust side. Supposedly, the turbo on the VWs requires boost pressure all the time to keep the rings sealed... But then every time a TDI would idle in traffic, it would be consuming oil now, wouldn't it? Yea, I think that argument is bogus. I also idled my Jetta for hours and hours (VW brand hotel) and never had any problems with the turbo.

Kinda the same behavior I have done with this CRD, and haven't had any problems until now. The ONLY thing I could point at as a possible cause besides a defect, was the temperature that day. It was in the low 30's, had been in the 20s overnight, and this was the first time I had driven it that day. The engine was just beginning to warm up when it happened.

So maybe the cold got to the oil, and it did eat a bearing b/c of that. I don't know.

Ok - never mind, then......................

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

I do know when my intercooler hose split, it coated the underside of the hood with oil (and I have a CCV oil trap), lending creedance to the theory about the turbo bushings. At lower rpm the oil pressure is lower too, so it's not that much of a stretch to make the claim boost pressure helps hold the oil in the turbo.

_________________
'05 Liberty CRD B100, SEGR - SOLD

'01 Beetle TDi B100, EGR delete
'83 Mercedes 240D B100, no EGR

--- SEGR Builder ---