Can it be trusted?

BVCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:52 am

That is true for the gas engine CJ and Cherokees, but consider this.....In 3 years, my 2006 CRD will be worth 4-5 thousand dollars. If a tranny grenades and it costs 3K to fix it out of warranty, doing the math, it isn't something that is economically smart to fix it. I won't put 3K in a 4K car just to keep it running. I'll put that 3K on a down payment, and push-pull-or drag the CRD in for a trade-in.

Sidewinder · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:30 am

Keep in mind that we are sort of early adopters’. As Americans learn the advantages of diesel i.e. better fuel millage demand will increase. There are already several manufactures planning on adding diesel as options to their lines. VW just released the new Jeta, GM, Ford, and Toyota are all releasing small diesel engines into their light duty (1/2 ton) trucks, I have read about several diesel based hybrids due out in the next couple of years. As these products hit the market and more and more people find out that these are not the crap diesels from the 80's demand will increase. With increased demand will come better after market support which means lower parts costs. On the other hand increased demand will also mean that used values will not fall as fast or in our case could even recover a little in the private market. Diesel and hybrid technologies are going to be the near future to cover the gap between what we have today and where we want to go tomorrow. Besides where else are you going to find a 4X4 5passenger SUV that gets over 20MPG in town. Proper maintenance will keep these and any other diesel running for a very long time. You don't see cheap gas engines in OTR truck do you?

BVCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:03 pm

No I don't. I don't have a worry in the world about this marine engine we are using. It is well tested. Only concern is the tranny. With greater demand for diesel fuel will come higher prices at the pump for it. Great!

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:53 pm

I did a search on Autotrader The cheapest 2005 listed for $15,900 the highest 2006 was $17,995.

Don't trust the trade in price, dealers make money by buying cheap and selling high.
There were 8 pages of KJ CRDs on Autotrader.

This should give everyone an idea how much dealers make when you trade.

True not every one wants a Diesel because they don't understand them.

I do understand Diesels and plan to own one as long as I can drive.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:54 pm

I paid $19,000 for my 2005 CRD almost two years ago. If they are on Auto Trader for $17k...that's darn good resale!

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:26 pm

chadhargis wrote:

I paid $19,000 for my 1995 CRD almost two years ago. If they are on Auto Trader for $17k...that's darn good resale!

Sweet....where can I get a 1995 CRD? :wink:

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:59 pm

BVCRD wrote:

That is true for the gas engine CJ and Cherokees, but consider this.....In 3 years, my 2006 CRD will be worth 4-5 thousand dollars. If a tranny grenades and it costs 3K to fix it out of warranty, doing the math, it isn't something that is economically smart to fix it. I won't put 3K in a 4K car just to keep it running. I'll put that 3K on a down payment, and push-pull-or drag the CRD in for a trade-in.

In 3 years when your ready to sell it for 4-5k please think of me.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:09 pm

Sir Sam wrote:

BVCRD wrote:

That is true for the gas engine CJ and Cherokees, but consider this.....In 3 years, my 2006 CRD will be worth 4-5 thousand dollars. If a tranny grenades and it costs 3K to fix it out of warranty, doing the math, it isn't something that is economically smart to fix it. I won't put 3K in a 4K car just to keep it running. I'll put that 3K on a down payment, and push-pull-or drag the CRD in for a trade-in.

In 3 years when your ready to sell it for 4-5k please think of me.

I will, even if the tranny is shelled out. Deal!!!

chadhargis · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:58 pm

WolverineFW wrote:

chadhargis wrote:

I paid $19,000 for my 1995 CRD almost two years ago. If they are on Auto Trader for $17k...that's darn good resale!

Sweet....where can I get a 1995 CRD? :wink:

DOH!! I corrected it.

But if the price is right, I'll tell you it's a 1995. LOL!

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:36 am

BVCRD wrote:

Sir Sam wrote:

BVCRD wrote:

That is true for the gas engine CJ and Cherokees, but consider this.....In 3 years, my 2006 CRD will be worth 4-5 thousand dollars. If a tranny grenades and it costs 3K to fix it out of warranty, doing the math, it isn't something that is economically smart to fix it. I won't put 3K in a 4K car just to keep it running. I'll put that 3K on a down payment, and push-pull-or drag the CRD in for a trade-in.

In 3 years when your ready to sell it for 4-5k please think of me.

I will, even if the tranny is shelled out. Deal!!!

Honestly yes. But then again replacing the trans is a $500 weekend job for me.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:28 am

BVCRD wrote:

That is true for the gas engine CJ and Cherokees, but consider this.....In 3 years, my 2006 CRD will be worth 4-5 thousand dollars. If a tranny grenades and it costs 3K to fix it out of warranty, doing the math, it isn't something that is economically smart to fix it. I won't put 3K in a 4K car just to keep it running. I'll put that 3K on a down payment, and push-pull-or drag the CRD in for a trade-in.

but that math is only an issue if your focus is on the trade-in value
i.e. if it costs 3K to fix something that you expect a 4K return on - then it's not effective

however if you put 3K in to fix a vehicle that you can then drive for another 6 years - then it is effective,
especially if the alternative is spending 25K on a new vehicle.

and add this to the calculation - if you have the 25K to spend on a new vehicle - what if you take that and invest it instead - assuming interest rates are closer to the historical 7% range (I know big assumption)- it's actually costing ~35K of opportunity cost i.e. money you could have made if you spent the 3K to fix the tranny.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:03 am

ATXKJ wrote:

BVCRD wrote:

That is true for the gas engine CJ and Cherokees, but consider this.....In 3 years, my 2006 CRD will be worth 4-5 thousand dollars. If a tranny grenades and it costs 3K to fix it out of warranty, doing the math, it isn't something that is economically smart to fix it. I won't put 3K in a 4K car just to keep it running. I'll put that 3K on a down payment, and push-pull-or drag the CRD in for a trade-in.

but that math is only an issue if your focus is on the trade-in value
i.e. if it costs 3K to fix something that you expect a 4K return on - then it's not effective

however if you put 3K in to fix a vehicle that you can then drive for another 6 years - then it is effective,
especially if the alternative is spending 25K on a new vehicle.

and add this to the calculation - if you have the 25K to spend on a new vehicle - what if you take that and invest it instead - assuming interest rates are closer to the historical 7% range (I know big assumption)- it's actually costing ~35K of opportunity cost i.e. money you could have made if you spent the 3K to fix the tranny.

Shhhh, stop messing it up, I got a line on a cheap CRD.

ColoradoCRD · **Joined:** Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:25 am **Posts:** 60

Most are pointing at the transmission as the weak link. On what basis? Although there is a lot of skepticism about the tranny which intensified after the recall, from all I see on this and other CRD forums, people are not having trouble. At this point I wonder if the tranny issue any greater than other vehicles with auto transmissions.

The turbo is the other big ticket item. At this point, I don't think there is any greater risk than any other vehicle with a turbo.

I have 47k on my 05 CRD and am think about selling only because I bought a new Grand Cherokee CRD several months ago. Since my recent purchase, I have turned the Liberty into my daily commuter and am racking up mileage at about 2k a month. I really don't want two similar diesel vehicles. When I look a selling the Liberty, I am guessing that I could sell it myself for about $12k. (Paid $25+ out the door w taxes a little over 4 years ago). But, if I keep it, my cost per mile in depreciation is declining rapidly and is clearly the the least expensive option when compared to the costs of purchasing a new car. So for now, I am keeping it. One strategy will be to sell it at the 60 to 65k mileage range, so the buyer has the comfort of the remaining 70k drivetrain warranty.

By the way, I only have 1,100 miles on the Grand Cherokee. What a nice vehicle!! Superior to the Liberty in everyway. You wouldn't know its a diesel if you weren't told, it is so quiet. Absolutely no visible soot, and no diesel odor. I can put my nose in the exhaust even at start up and smell no diesel fumes. I don't have enough driving experience, but it appears it will get better mileage than the liberty. It certainly performs better, and adds a touch of luxury, quietness and comfort. The torque is amazing. I am comforted knowing the engine/transmission is manufactured in Germany by Mercedes assuring service will be available if Chrysler tanks.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:57 am

ColoradoCRD wrote:

Most are pointing at the transmission as the weak link. On what basis? Although there is a lot of skepticism about the tranny which intensified after the recall, from all I see on this and other CRD forums, people are not having trouble. At this point I wonder if the tranny issue any greater than other vehicles with auto transmissions.

The turbo is the other big ticket item. At this point, I don't think there is any greater risk than any other vehicle with a turbo.

I have 47k on my 05 CRD and am think about selling only because I bought a new Grand Cherokee CRD several months ago. Since my recent purchase, I have turned the Liberty into my daily commuter and am racking up mileage at about 2k a month. I really don't want two similar diesel vehicles. When I look a selling the Liberty, I am guessing that I could sell it myself for about $12k. (Paid $25+ out the door w taxes a little over 4 years ago). But, if I keep it, my cost per mile in depreciation is declining rapidly and is clearly the the least expensive option when compared to the costs of purchasing a new car. So for now, I am keeping it. One strategy will be to sell it at the 60 to 65k mileage range, so the buyer has the comfort of the remaining 70k drivetrain warranty.

By the way, I only have 1,100 miles on the Grand Cherokee. What a nice vehicle!! Superior to the Liberty in everyway. You wouldn't know its a diesel if you weren't told, it is so quiet. Absolutely no visible soot, and no diesel odor. I can put my nose in the exhaust even at start up and smell no diesel fumes. I don't have enough driving experience, but it appears it will get better mileage than the liberty. It certainly performs better, and adds a touch of luxury, quietness and comfort. The torque is amazing. I am comforted knowing the engine/transmission is manufactured in Germany by Mercedes assuring service will be available if Chrysler tanks.

The transmission in the Grand Cherokee (W5J400) is a derivative of the W5A580 used in other applications. If memory serves correct, these are built by Chrysler at the Kokomo transmission plant in Indiana. MB hasn't used these transmissions for years as they only have 5 forward gears.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:20 am

ColoradoCRD wrote:

Most are pointing at the transmission as the weak link. On what basis? Although there is a lot of skepticism about the tranny which intensified after the recall, from all I see on this and other CRD forums, people are not having trouble. At this point I wonder if the tranny issue any greater than other vehicles with auto transmissions.

The turbo is the other big ticket item. At this point, I don't think there is any greater risk than any other vehicle with a turbo.

I have 47k on my 05 CRD and am think about selling only because I bought a new Grand Cherokee CRD several months ago. Since my recent purchase, I have turned the Liberty into my daily commuter and am racking up mileage at about 2k a month. I really don't want two similar diesel vehicles. When I look a selling the Liberty, I am guessing that I could sell it myself for about $12k. (Paid $25+ out the door w taxes a little over 4 years ago). But, if I keep it, my cost per mile in depreciation is declining rapidly and is clearly the the least expensive option when compared to the costs of purchasing a new car. So for now, I am keeping it. One strategy will be to sell it at the 60 to 65k mileage range, so the buyer has the comfort of the remaining 70k drivetrain warranty.

By the way, I only have 1,100 miles on the Grand Cherokee. What a nice vehicle!! Superior to the Liberty in everyway. You wouldn't know its a diesel if you weren't told, it is so quiet. Absolutely no visible soot, and no diesel odor. I can put my nose in the exhaust even at start up and smell no diesel fumes. I don't have enough driving experience, but it appears it will get better mileage than the liberty. It certainly performs better, and adds a touch of luxury, quietness and comfort. The torque is amazing. I am comforted knowing the engine/transmission is manufactured in Germany by Mercedes assuring service will be available if Chrysler tanks.

It's the chicken little syndrom, of which, I am effected. I typically dispose of my cars through trade ins, so that is what I was basing the value at.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

This thread went a little off the topic I intended. I should have expressed myself better as my question really was really in three parts as follows:

1. What is the reputation for longevity for the Liberty exclusive of the CRD engine.

2. Will the fact that I have a CRD make it more or less likely that I will have trouble with the car in the future.

3. Is there a chance of finding someone who actually understands the CRD engine and can actually make repairs & get parts.[/list]

BVCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:44 pm

vtdog wrote:

This thread went a little off the topic I intended. I should have expressed myself better as my question really was really in three parts as follows:

1. What is the reputation for longevity for the Liberty exclusive of the CRD engine.

2. Will the fact that I have a CRD make it more or less likely that I will have trouble with the car in the future.

3. Is there a chance of finding someone who actually understands the CRD engine and can actually make repairs & get parts.[/list]

The CRD engine was originally a marine engine used in boats and has an excellent track record. The jury is still out on the longevity of the tranny, but early problems are not promising. A CRD mechanic at our local dealership works on them, but I don't know how many clones of him are out there.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:05 pm

vtdog wrote:

This thread went a little off the topic I intended. I should have expressed myself better as my question really was really in three parts as follows:

1. What is the reputation for longevity for the Liberty exclusive of the CRD engine.

2. Will the fact that I have a CRD make it more or less likely that I will have trouble with the car in the future.

3. Is there a chance of finding someone who actually understands the CRD engine and can actually make repairs & get parts.[/list]

1) The Liberty has an over all good reputation, so good that finding used parts is not an easy job compaired to other cars. Most of the ones I have found in bone yards were well stripped after being wrecked.
2) There are a lot of factors related to, "Trouble". Most Trouble problems are due to owner ignorance or neglect like not changing out bad coolant hoses and then keep driving it anyway or putting up with 20 degrees of slop in the steering and not fixing it.
3) Every day there are more Technicians and Gear Heads that know what they are doing. People who do not have the expertise to do it them selves will find those who do and be happy with the service. Dealers are not the only source for service, just one source.

Commentary: Twenty years ago, few had a clue how to work on VW Diesel engines and the first ones had some problems with reliability. As more Common Rail type Diesels come on stream the learning curve climbs faster than the National Debt. Every day there are more Technicians who can do more than hook up a code scanner and swap out parts until the CEL shuts off.
This forum demonstrates that Gear Heads have Intimately Grasped the Concept of the VM 2.8L engine and soon as the VM 2.8L ages, the grasp will expand to the stage it has with VW, Cummins 5.9, Powerstroke, and Duramax. In fact the Intimate Gear Head Grasp and Understanding of the VM 2.8 exceeds that of the Mercedes 3.0L used in Sprinters, 320CIDs, and Grand Cherokees.
Another item to factor in is the Crash Rate and Fire Damage Rate seems to exceed the Catastrophic Failure rate, based upon my observations.
Many years ago a 2% Catastrophic Failure Rate was considered acceptable. At that rate there would be 220 trashed out CRD engines that would have been replaced by Chrysler under Warranty in US and Canada. As much as I like to rant on Chrysler, I suspect that they have not replaced 220 CRD engines that have flew apart for no reason under warranty. In fact I suspect that even some of the worst cars ever brought into the US & Canada have not had a 2% trashed out engine under Warranty problem, even Dihatsu, one of the worst cars ever imported, yup worse than Yugo. If I had to make a Wild Guess on how many US/Canada VM 2.8L CRD engines flew apart for no known reason and were replaced under warranty, I would guess between 10 and 25. MrMopar may know the real number, but may not be able to comment. If I am in range, I would suspect that some one from VM came over and inspected them, had them cut up and scrapped.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:01 pm

BVCRD wrote:

It's the chicken little syndrom, of which, I am effected. I typically dispose of my cars through trade ins, so that is what I was basing the value at.

Seriously, in 3 years I'm willing to pay 4-5k.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:13 pm

I suspect the biggest problem in the future, as in the past - is finding a maintenance tech who knows how to work on them.

The solution is to become your own expert.

If you expect to take it to a local garage (or dealership) and have them fix it correctly - you will have problems.

Can it be trusted?

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