20/20 show claims the CRD only gets 11mpg

Danno · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:54 pm

Diesel fuel hard to find? I guess he never paid attention while driving down the street to see how many stations have diesel for sale. I would say here since the article has been published at least 5 out of 6 stations sell diesel. If you drive a gasser, seldom do you pay attention if stations sell diesel. Why not put a high torque small diesel engine in a SUV? Its exactly what some people are looking for.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

What an emotional load of drivel in that article. Mr. Crane pretends to be all knowing, and speaks for everyone in the US when he claims that no one wants diesel engines in their cars. I'm so glad I read that article - I didn't realize that diesel fuel is hard to find, impossible in rural areas. Gee whiz, what will I do, I'm wringing my hands in despair, but WAIT, I've been buying diesel for nearly a year now, even went on a 1000 mile trip to Missouri, drove several hundred miles in some rural areas, and GASP, they had diesel!!! Guess they didnt read Mr. Crane's trembly, emotional drivel. From God's mouth to his ears. Somebody give this guy his medication - he's babbling.

Just a taste of his intellect:
"In the United States, everyone is getting excited about the possible growth of diesel engines....
"The idea that millions of Americans are waiting for diesel engines in their passenger cars is ridiculous. Diesel fuel is hard to find--almost impossible in urban areas. It's more expensive than gasoline. Diesel passenger cars make sense in some parts of the world, but they don't make sense in the United States. The reason they are not available is that no one really wants them."

Yes, that's why VW sells out their TDI production - its why CRD's sell so well. Good Grief.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:23 pm

Well, I have to admit...diesel fuel is NOT easy to find. Last week on my trip up I-65 from Florida to Kentucky, I started to get low as I traveled into Tennessee. I stopped at THREE consecutive exits looking for diesel fuel, one of them being a TA Travel Center, and still never found any diesel for anything other than semi-trucks!! Finally, as my needle dropped almost to "E" I found one lonely store that had one diesel fuel pump and it saved me from having to walk.

They say 40% of all stations carry diesel...I'm beginning to wonder if that's not an optomistic figure. I've almost run out on long trips many times because I can't find stations that carry diesel. From now on I am keeping my tank full all the time when I hit the road. At half a tank, I'm looking for diesel.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

The Truck stop pumps work - you just have to fill very slowly because of the nozzle misfit :-)

Yes, it takes a little effort to find diesel in some locations, but its certainly not impossible. And it's not the issue Mr. Crane makes it out to be. I mapped out diesel stations prior to making my road trip last year, and I found on average about 5 unlisted diesel stations for every one I could find via search maps. And quite a few were in some very small towns. But I never had to use a truck size nozzle on that trip. With a 500 mile range, you can surely find diesel, even if you have to refuel at half full. I'd even put SuperWalmart diesel in my CRD rather than walk :-)

As to 41 % of stations carrying diesel, its true - For now, we have to log on to websites to when traveling, to see where truck stops like FlyingJ, Loves, Travel America and others are located.

PS - I did have trouble finding diesel in Paducah, KY, but a little way up the Interstate, in Metropolis, ILL, I found a BP station with the best diesel fuel I've used yet. Clear, ran like greased lightening, and quiet running. That was the only town I stopped in where I didn't find any diesel.

valkraider · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:17 pm

Since we switched to a diesel vehicle, back in 2003:

I have driven up and down the west coast from Victoria, BC to San Diego, CA. Both inland, and on the coast. I have driven from Portland, OR to Albuquerque, NM via California/Arizona and also via Idaho/Utah.

I have never had a problem finding diesel - even at regular (non truck stop) stations.

In the city of Portland, diesel is not hard to find. Even the stations in the downtown and high priced areas have diesel pumps. The suburbs have diesel too, just more spread out than gasoline.

What I found is that certain chains seem to always have diesel in certain areas. For example, in the Pacific Northwest we have Shell (formerly Texaco), Chevron, 76, and a few of the lower priced chains like Arco.

The Shells almost all have diesel here. While the Chevrons almost never have diesel here. 76 will be mixed but more not having diesel than having... I don't bother with Arco because their fuel is so cheap it has to have some water in it...

But I am sure that is regional. We don't have BP here, and only a couple Conocos.

And, like others have said - every truck stop in the country carries diesel, and I have never found one that didn't have a diesel pump in the auto islands - although I am sure there are a couple that exist.

A truck nozzle will fill a 13 gallon Volkswagen tank QUICK.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:26 am

Well, if you read Mr Crain's job description - editor for a trade journal for owners of car dealerships - it's rather obvious why he takes the slant he does.

We, the public, aren't the OEM's direct customers - the dealerships are. They buy vehicles from the OEM's based on what they think will sell and net them a profit. If the cars don't sell, they still owe the OEM's the cost of the vehicle. It doesn't matter if a national poll found that 99.9% of the public wanted a diesel engine in a certain vehicle, if the dealerships tell the OEM's they don't want to be bothered with them and won't stock any, the OEM's won't build them.

The dealerships are the ones who get stuck with all the service and warranty work, have to have trained service technicians, spare parts in inventory, etc. They have to figure these costs in with sales of vehicles to produce a profit at the bottom line. If you introduce a new vehicle with a different type engine that may only see limited production for the forseeable future, that is going to require specialized training for his service techs, specialized and possibly more expensive and time consuming service, and specialized spare parts over and above what he normally carries, he'll see that as eating into his bottom line and not worth the trouble. He'll tell his OEM supplier to forget it, he has no use and no market for that type of vehicle, especially if he believes this new type of vehicle and engine will negatively affect sales of his current inventory. If he's making a nice profit maintaining the status quo, why upset the apple cart? It will only be when he sees this new vehicle as becoming a major player, with a significant production run and high enough customer demand and sales to offset the added cost of ordering and servicing these vehicles, that he will opt in and tell the OEM's he wants them.

That's why many of the concept cars you see at the annual auto shows, even though they receive rave reviews from the auto enthusiast press and the public at large, never see the light of day. For any of the reasons listed above, the dealerships tell the OEM "not on your life" and the vehicle ends up in the dustbin.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I notice that the research from J.D. Powers, last year, showing that over 60% of Americans would be interested in a clean burning diesel automotible, if they were available, was never mentioned. And this survey was taken before fuel prices zoomed out of sight.

Motive is always the real driver for these opinions... the closer we approach ULSD, 50 state legal diesel vehicles, the more these articles appear. Publication editors are most likely aware which contributors are biased in which direction, and how close to the loony bin they are. But they're also aware that controversy sells advertising hits, magazines and newspapers.

The problem I see with these hidden agendas, be it the Sierra Club, CARB, EPA, advertising revenue or dealers pushing Gas-Electric hybrids, is that they attempt to divert energey and ideas away from a solution to our energy problems. Their thinking is limited by whatever they want to happen, but they don't stop there; instead they desperately attempt to move public mindset away from any alternative solutions, like clean diesels, that aren't in their agenda.

An approach doomed to failure as far as resolving the problem is concerned.

BLake · **Posted:** Mon May 08, 2006 2:04 pm

The CRD mileage myth was perpetuated by NBC this morning. My brother called this morning to tell me that my Jeep was junk. It would appear that Jeep is the biggest offender in overstating EPA mileage. Katy Couric, the well know diesel expert, said so herself. She stated that the Jeep got 11MPG in an independent test. I didn't see the Perky one because I watch the Morning Buzz. Great morning show if you have it in your area.

Anyway, I explained the whole fuel return thing to him and told him his TDI would have returned similar numbers using the same test method. Hated to shake his confidence in Ms Couric. Wasn't NBC the news group that had to use model rocket motors to get the Chevy pick-up to ignite "properly" in their side impact test?

spencevans · **Posted:** Mon May 08, 2006 5:45 pm

There are only three ways to get that poor of a fuel milage reading.

1. You suck at math.
2. Someone stole some of your fuel.
3. You're towing a huge load.

I tend to believe it was the first in this case. 20/20 get someone who can do math!! The worst I've ever seen is 20mpg even after four wheeling.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue May 09, 2006 7:51 am

spencevans wrote:

There are only three ways to get that poor of a fuel milage reading.

1. You suck at math.
2. Someone stole some of your fuel.
3. You're towing a huge load.

I tend to believe it was the first in this case. 20/20 get someone who can do math!! The worst I've ever seen is 20mpg even after four wheeling.

#3 isn't even an option. I had 6,870 lbs. on my CRD pulling up grades as steep as 6% for 4 hours and I still got 14 miles per gallon. 11 miles per gallon is virtually impossible in a Jeep CRD and Consumer Reports knows it...they are just too prideful to correct their lies.

naturist · **Posted:** Tue May 09, 2006 8:00 am

First of all, the worst mileage I've been able to get is about 18.5 mpg.

But there's the answer, staring us in the face: the reason Consumer Reports, et al. have gotten 11 in spite of their very careful (claimed) methods is that they pulled the fuel inlet line off the fuel filter, ran a separate hose to their precisely measured fuel container, and neglected entirely to account for the fuel return line. In essence, they threw half their precisely measured fuel back into the fuel tank!

It hasn't been bad math, transposition errors, running with the handbrake on, pulling a sled, or sitting at idle for a few hours, it has been FORGETTING/NOT-KNOWING ABOUT THE FUEL RETURN LINE!!!

KJbob · **Posted:** Tue May 09, 2006 9:07 am

BLake wrote:

Katy Couric, the well know diesel expert, said so herself.

This is priceless. :lol:

In the dead of winter I got about 22mpg regularly, about 80/20 highway, less than 10k on the engine. That was determined using the pen and paper method (not the EVIC).

In more moderate weather I'm getting about 25mpg.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue May 09, 2006 9:19 am

Even my gas guzzling Dodge Ram Quad Cab 4x4 with V8, auto tranny, and 3.92 gears averaged 12 miles per gallon. I wrote Consumer Reports again and assured them they don't have to worry about me ever picking up a copy of their stuff again in this lifetime.

My wife said the idea of the story Katy Couric was doing was that window stickers are not accurate on vehicles today. Well, my CRD said 21/26 on the window sticker, and that is EXACTLY what I have seen over the last year. My Ford Ranger said 15/19 and I averaged 17. My wife's Jeep Commander said 15/19 I think and she's averaging about 16. Every vehicle I've bought has been dead on what the window sticker said as far as mileage goes. The one exception is that Dodge truck...any V8 powered pickup truck is going to struggle to reach the "city" rating even on the highway.

I wish the media would get their facts straight before they go spreading lies and turning people away from diesel....again.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Interestingly enough, the auto writer for the Boston Globe, Royal Ford, (yes that is his name) wrote a piece last year slamming the crd using the 11mpg figure. Last Sunday, he wrote a very complimentary piece about small diesels (including the crd) and used a figure of 22.5mpg. In keeping with his surprising lack of knowledge of the auto industry, he really had no insight into the new diesel pollution regs, but did quoted a mercedes source who said they had a dielsel ready to go for '07 which could meet all epa regs.

Albert · **Posted:** Tue May 09, 2006 10:25 am

Ok.....so I don't have a CRD....but....My take on this is as follows.

If CR is testing ANYTHING they have an ETHICAL if not also a MORAL OBLIGATION to get it right and maintain their CREDIBILITY since the reason for their being is to provide an "UNBIASED" report. (another subject).......So they do a test and report it and many people are getting 2x the mileage....not 1 or 3 mpg difference which could be attributed to different drivers, etc. They have an obligation now to get another vehicle and re-visit the test and do it again. (Hey, maby they got a "bad vehicle or the test is flawed or a human error was involved??) Anything's possible. But to set things straight another test IS in order and not just doing the same thing over again. But the thing is that they won't because if they did and found that they were wrong they would not be able to admit it as it would adversly affect their CREDIBILITY and that is why they cannot re-test or admit that they had a flawed test or worse - that they were BIASED. Many people subscribe and donate to them and believe every word they print as they claim "un-biased testing with no sponsors" People would start wondering about other tests and reports and then the perverbial garbage would hit the fan......subscriptions would fall off........etc - etc.

As an aside...and "competant and professional tester" that did a test that indicated an 11 mpg average on any vehicle especially a diesel (as long as it wasn't a tractor-trailer pulling 80,000lbs)that came out that low should have asked himself/herself why and did some additional testing.

Note that 20/20 and Katie C. and others just take CR's results and run with it since they believe in CR's CREDIBILITY. And so they are just in the news business and are also TOLD what to report etc, etc.

I have bought different items over the years that CR indicated didn't test well or were not recommended and had no problems with them.

Hey.......maby I wouldn't know a good thing if it bit me in the nose. Wait a minute.....I gotta go. I need another nose job.............................and I have a cramp in my typing toe....

whammer · **Joined:** Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:39 pm **Posts:** 22

Maybe it had a bad ECM....I've been waiting on a new one for just over two weeks now, its finally in....I've been getting about 15mpg mixed in the meantime.... :cry:

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Thu May 11, 2006 9:18 pm

My experience with CR is that if the get it right 1/2 the time that is pretty good for them........not good enough for anyone to waste their time subscribing though.

oz_crd · **Posted:** Thu May 11, 2006 11:17 pm

OK, all of us that own a CRD knows that it gets more than 11 mpg. But here is a better question: Why do they only get around 24mpg, when the May issue of Diesel Power claims the Dodge Sprinter van they test drove got 20, and was capable of up to 30 mpg :?:

Whenever I look at that mag, they are touting some programmer to up the HP and torque. With the price of diesel and our country's "addiction to oil", does anyone produce a programmer that can give us the better milage that our CRD's should be capable of? I would gladly trade a little zip for 30mpg.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Fri May 12, 2006 7:18 am

1.) It weighs 4,350 lbs. alone...not including people and added accessories.
2.) It has a viscous heater that runs off the engine drive belt.
3.) It's 4-wheel drive.

These are some reasons why we are seeing mileage in the 20s. Everybody looks at VW cars and says, "Oh...those get mileage in the 40s...why can't we?" Well...those cars don't even make 100 horsepower, can't go off-road, and can't tow anything safely either. Two completely different animals there...

Guest · **Posted:** Fri May 12, 2006 7:23 am

LibertyCRD wrote:

3.) It's 4-wheel drive.

Yes, our front CV shafts are always engaged so we are always pushing the entire front end of the driveline right up to and in the transfer case, lots of resistance for the vehicle to have to constantly over power.

20/20 show claims the CRD only gets 11mpg

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