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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Wait a minute now, don't go throwing turnups in the fruit salad. Keep the turnups in their bowl and the fruit salad in its bowl. I mean I know a BMW X5 with a F1 V12 in it that will huint pretty much anything on the road down, in the curves as well as the straights. But it is not a KJ.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:08 am 
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jinstall wrote:
Wait a minute now, don't go throwing turnups in the fruit salad. Keep the turnups in their bowl and the fruit salad in its bowl. I mean I know a BMW X5 with a F1 V12 in it that will huint pretty much anything on the road down, in the curves as well as the straights. But it is not a KJ.


Right. Compare apples to apples. In the same or comparable vehicle, with similar weights and gearing, A turbo diesel will blow the socks off of a gasser from 0-60 any day of the week. When Turbo diesels are hopped up: Watch out.

http://www.allbusiness.com/automotive/m ... 317-1.html

Since 2006, Le Mans has been won by, you guessed it: Diesels, with both the Audi R10 TDI and the Pugeot 908 HDi Taking top positions by far.

http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans/pa ... il_gb.html

similar hp but the Cummins weighs ~ 4 times as much http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXUN-gTu ... re=related

Here is a fun video of some daily drivers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH9kKYz0kmI

More fun videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-1MTr8X ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ3yzOq6EcE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUlVK-ih ... re=related

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:48 am 
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When I bought my CRD, I test drove a comparably equipped gas version. Too be honest I thought they drove about the same, except the diesel seemed to have better around town manners. Acceleratation the gas seemed to do better up top. Mind you this was in about a 10-15 mile drive. I'm still happy with the CRD 4 years later. Since the majority of my driving is in wonderful DC traffic you can't beat the mileage. Additionally, the towing my car and getting 20mpg can't be beat either. The gasser would have struggled and probably got 12mpg towing the same weight.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:15 am 
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The speed record setting diesel...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:32 am 
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Yep - and remember: Gale drove it from his shop, over public roads and national hiways, to the flats towing the parts\tires trailer, then drove it back to his shop

Bill Heath did similar with his GM 6.5L twin-turbo Diesel to set the record in another class

Now: post some pics of gasser (patooie) pickups that hold similar records - or even coupes, sedans, hearses, etc.......................

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:19 pm 
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I own a CRD but flew into Loreto BCS and rented a 3.7, I drove it for a week, I thought the gasser was faster. But I wouldn't trade my CRD.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:51 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
Yep - and remember: Gale drove it from his shop, over public roads and national hiways, to the flats towing the parts\tires trailer, then drove it back to his shop

Bill Heath did similar with his GM 6.5L twin-turbo Diesel to set the record in another class

Now: post some pics of gasser (patooie) pickups that hold similar records - or even coupes, sedans, hearses, etc.......................
Stock and about the same cost as the Banks pickup,again stock and reaches over 250mph(stock).
http://www.ssip.net/manufacturers/bugatti/model/bugatti-veyron/


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:54 pm 
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Million seven list. Ouch.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:13 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
gmctd wrote:
Yep - and remember: Gale drove it from his shop, over public roads and national hiways, to the flats towing the parts\tires trailer, then drove it back to his shop

Bill Heath did similar with his GM 6.5L twin-turbo Diesel to set the record in another class

Now: post some pics of gasser (patooie) pickups that hold similar records - or even coupes, sedans, hearses, etc.......................
Stock and about the same cost as the Banks pickup,again stock and reaches over 250mph(stock).
http://www.ssip.net/manufacturers/bugatti/model/bugatti-veyron/


You are kidding right? You think that there is a comparison in price between a Bugati Veyron and a Banks setup? It's not even close as a comparison. The Bug costs 1700000 off the floor. You can build a lot of Cummins or Dmax for that kind of cash. Heck, for 3-4 grand in upgrades any 12V Cummins can put out 1001 HP (the same as the Bugati) Speaking of Banks, their latest Dmax pulls 7.77 in the quarter vs the Bug's 10.2. On top of that it weighs twice as much as the Bug. It didn't cost 1.7 (M) either. Lets keep comparing apples to apples shall we? Not that I wouldn't trade in my Dodge or Jeep in a heartbeat on a Bug, but that is never gonna happen.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:34 pm 
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nursecosmo wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
gmctd wrote:
Yep - and remember: Gale drove it from his shop, over public roads and national hiways, to the flats towing the parts\tires trailer, then drove it back to his shop

Bill Heath did similar with his GM 6.5L twin-turbo Diesel to set the record in another class

Now: post some pics of gasser (patooie) pickups that hold similar records - or even coupes, sedans, hearses, etc.......................
Stock and about the same cost as the Banks pickup,again stock and reaches over 250mph(stock).
http://www.ssip.net/manufacturers/bugatti/model/bugatti-veyron/


You are kidding right? You think that there is a comparison in price between a Bugati Veyron and a Banks setup? It's not even close as a comparison. The Bug costs 1700000 off the floor. You can build a lot of Cummins or Dmax for that kind of cash. Heck, for 3-4 grand in upgrades any 12V Cummins can put out 1001 HP (the same as the Bugati) Speaking of Banks, their latest Dmax pulls 7.77 in the quarter vs the Bug's 10.2. On top of that it weighs twice as much as the Bug. It didn't cost 1.7 (M) either. Lets keep comparing apples to apples shall we? Not that I wouldn't trade in my Dodge or Jeep in a heartbeat on a Bug, but that is never gonna happen.
So now you want the quickest?(not fastest overall top speed)


Here you go,the top 10 and not one diesel,some if left to run another 200' or so you pass the Banks diesel top speed easily.
Quote:
The pickup is growing increasingly popular with the new vehicle buying public. This growing popularity has also found its way to the drag strip with the advent of the Pro Stock Truck Class and the truck classes in both Super Stock and Stock eliminator. But like with cars, the quickest pickups won't be found at NHRA races but at IHRA, NSRA, NMRA, and other races across the world. The cars are blown, turbocharged, or nitrous injected. Not one naturally aspirated pickup makes the top ten list.

On top of the quickest pickup list is Glenn May from the Canadian province of British Columbia. Glen May debuted his Cranberry Connection 1999 Ford Ranger late last year. This beautiful work of art is not only the quickest pickup but also the quickest Ford at an amazing 6.395 @ 214.38. This puts him almost two tenths quicker than the next racer.

The second quickest is a sleeper to say the least. Freddie Fagerstrom halls from Sweden no less and races a killer ‘65 Chevrolet pickup. The truck has a blown 570 cubic inch Chevrolet for power and in match race trim -- less weight and more boost -- has gone 6.575 @ 210.50.

The number three and four pickup trucks come from the same team. The Arizona-based Bowtie Bullet team of the Lee family races two matching downsized 7/8 scale Stepside Chevy pickups. The trucks both have 526-inch Pontiacs for power. Father Butch comes in at number three with a 6.607 @ 209.69, while son Dale has gone 6.648 @ 210.21.

The first nitrous pickup comes in at number five and that is Glen Kerunsky from Alberta, Canada. The Breckridge Construction team, like fellow Canadian May, debuted a new pickup last year, but Kerunsky's was a Chevy S-10. The new S-10 replaces a full size Chevy that was no slouch itself, having run a 6.69. The new S-10 has gone 6.655 @ 209.50 racing in the Canadian Pro Mod class.

Jerry Mungle from Texas has had his pickup for almost twenty years and has updated it several times since then. He usually races on the Texas Quick 8 Association but ran his best time at a Super Chevy race. The silver and white full size truck went 6.705 @ 200.50 and comes in at number six.

1999 NMCA Pro Street champion Bob Rieger is the pickup found at number seven. The trick pickup was built in 1999 with a naturally aspirated 814 cubic inch Sonny Leonard Pro Stock engine, but that engine was replaced by a twin turbocharged Ken Duttweiller motor. The flamed black beauty -- despite racing politics -- has gone 6.706 @ 208.46 in Pro Street trim.

The number eight pickup was unopposed as the quickest and fastest for years. The pickup of Canadian Joe Delehay was built in 1992 and has a gone 6.830 @ 205.50. Delehay was the first six-second pickup along with being the first 200-mile per hour pickup. Delehay races in the West Coast Pro Mod Association and match races these days.

Chuck Samuel comes in at number nine with his twin turbocharged 1999 S-10 pickup. The car has a 445 cubic inch big block for power. The Michigan racer is banging on the door to the sixes with an ever so close 7.000 @ 199.15, run this year in NMCA Pro Street.

The final racer on the list is the only one on grooved tires. Long time sportsman racer Corky Markwart debuted his trick Richard Earle-built 1999 Dodge Dakota pickup late last year. He races the car with a 648-inch Chevrolet with a shot of nitrous in the Outlaw Pro Street class. He has a best run of 7.022 @ 205.29; a six-second pass is in the future.

Other racers who came close but did not make the top ten were Bob Dixon at 7.105 @ 195.30 in his 1955 Chevy Cameo pickup, Justin Morgan at 7.105 @ 190 in his full size, 140-inch wheelbase ‘95 Chevrolet pickup, and Mark Thomas from New Zealand, who has gone 7.162 @ 191.15 in his blown KB Holden Ute.

THE DRAG RACING LIST'S TOP TEN PICKUP LIST

1 6.395 @ 214.38 Glen May '99 Ranger/526" Ford

2 6.575 @ 210.50 Freddie Fagerstrom '65 Chevy/570" Chevy

3 6.607 @ 209.69 Butch Lee '97 Chevy/526" Pontiac

4 6.648 @ 210.21 Dale Lee '90 Chevy/526" Pontiac

5 6.655 @ 209.50 Glen Kerunsky '99 S-10/706" Pontiac

6 6.705 @ 209.50 Bob Mungle '90 Chevy/526" Pontiac

7 6.706 @ 208.46 Bob Rieger '99 S-10/388" Chevy

8 6.830 @ 205.50 Joe Delehay '72 Chevy/632" Chevy

9 7.000 @ 199.15 Chuck Samuel '99 S-10/445" Chevy

10 7.022 @ 205.29 Corky Markwart '99 Dakota/648" Pontiac


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:14 am 
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oops, my bad, I thought we were talking about Diesel vs Gasoline, Image not Methanol or Nitro. Of course the weight restrictions are something to think about at less than half the weight of a real truck in the pro Mod class(the Cranberry Connection is tot even a truck). Anyway, this is again comparing apples to watermelons. The initial post was regarding a CRD and a 3.7. And again in the same vehicle with same or similar gearing, the diesel will whip the gasser every time up to 100KPH. It is simply a function of physics, low end torque accelerates faster than high end HP. Imagine the fun we could have with 3.7L Turbodiesel. It would have somewhere around 185KW and 700NM of torque.


A pic of the worlds fastest so-called truck. http://books.google.com/books?id=a4w4aE ... t&resnum=3

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:19 am 
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What?

No talk about the dreaded turbo-lag of a turbo-diesel?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:32 am 
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Yeah, but TJ: better 'splain me now how many, or which one, of those trucks comes in under 500cuin, or without nitromethane fuel at 1.5gps (that's right folks - you read it right: 1.5 gallons per second thru a 1.5" dia fuel line is typical in the ^500cuin rails and funnycars\trucks - they use military aircraft lift pumps) vs the 360cuin Cummins on multi-Bar and Diesel fuel, sometimes with a shot of N2o

Multi-Bar can be 60psig and ^, which would be ~4Bar ga x 5.9L (360cuin) = 1440cuin eff - again, pity the poor gasser (...!) which still may need a blower on top of that 800cuin motor to get the job done - and, can any be legally driven home and commute daily?....................

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:21 pm 
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Rice-truckers aren't interested in an honest apples-to-apples comparison, b/c they are dedicated to the misconception that HP is better than torque. This same misconception has "enhanced" the bodily dimensions of riceboys for years, as they have added layers of vinyl to their hamster-powered Honduhs and Toy-yotas. They insist that 4 tiny cylinders at 9000 RPM gives them more speed than the V8 2500 rpm torque monster Mustang or Camaro next to them... And then insist that they must have "missed a shift" or something when they are staring at tail lights time and again.

Even the top-end argument doesn't hold water, because it STILL takes more POWER than HP to move a vehicle faster. Give the CRD more than the 5 gears it has, keep the engine in its power band of 2200 RPM... And it will probably be able to reach escape velocity without problems.

HP is simply the application of TORQUE over time. If you don't have the torque to begin with, you have nothing. The biggest engine in the world only spins at 150 RPM. But ask how much torque it develops. :D

Put it another way: The job you need to do is removing the dirt from digging out a swimming pool. Each trip to the dumpster is one revolution. Each full load is torque. Which gets more work done - Using a teacup, or a wheelbarrow?

Even accounting for the loading time, the wheelbarrow will win every time. Just like the diesel. But I hear that if you add some more stickers to your truck TJ, you will get 5hp for each one. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:34 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Even accounting for the loading time, the wheelbarrow will win every time. Just like the diesel. But I hear that if you add some more stickers to your truck TJ, you will get 5hp for each one. ;)


Your kidding right? I hope so.

In case you are not: No, no it will not always win.

Horsepower IS a time unit measure of work. If the "wheelbarrow" would win every time, it would have more horsepower. Period. You are dealing with multiplication factors of revolutions here, not just 3 more trips per second, but three thousand trips per second. If a tea cup makes 1000's more trips per second, it will reach a point where it wins. It is simple... really... a fact even. So stop this madness.

geordi wrote:
Give the CRD more than the 5 gears it has, keep the engine in its power band of 2200 RPM... And it will probably be able to reach escape velocity without problems.


This would be a interesting point perhaps, as soon as you invent a gear that has no mechanical loss, or significantly less mechanical loss than what we have in the known world, then get back to us with it. We can move the moon with a lever long enough... but until you come up with one that works it is a totally false statement.

I love diesels, but this is just totally off-base.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:08 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Rice-truckers aren't interested in an honest apples-to-apples comparison, b/c they are dedicated to the misconception that HP is better than torque. This same misconception has "enhanced" the bodily dimensions of riceboys for years, as they have added layers of vinyl to their hamster-powered Honduhs and Toy-yotas. They insist that 4 tiny cylinders at 9000 RPM gives them more speed than the V8 2500 rpm torque monster Mustang or Camaro next to them... And then insist that they must have "missed a shift" or something when they are staring at tail lights time and again.

Even the top-end argument doesn't hold water, because it STILL takes more POWER than HP to move a vehicle faster. Give the CRD more than the 5 gears it has, keep the engine in its power band of 2200 RPM... And it will probably be able to reach escape velocity without problems.

HP is simply the application of TORQUE over time. If you don't have the torque to begin with, you have nothing. The biggest engine in the world only spins at 150 RPM. But ask how much torque it develops. :D

Put it another way: The job you need to do is removing the dirt from digging out a swimming pool. Each trip to the dumpster is one revolution. Each full load is torque. Which gets more work done - Using a teacup, or a wheelbarrow?

Even accounting for the loading time, the wheelbarrow will win every time. Just like the diesel. But I hear that if you add some more stickers to your truck TJ, you will get 5hp for each one. ;)
Hey I'm not saying diesels are bad,they are ment for heavy hauling/towing and that is where they shine.In speed race gas will win easier then a diesel will anyday,that is just fact for now.leave the Lemans winners out since they have more money tied in the vehicles then what California has in dept.

Pound for pound a gas engine can make more power,by what I mean is take a side by side comparison(apples to apples where everything is the same besides the fuel used)......................

Starting with the engines,both will be identical cubic inches,identical configurations,and identical intake setups.The gas version will make more power if they both are naturally aspirated,add a turbo and the diesel will make a bit more torque but the diesel will weigh more then the gas,the gas will have better throttle response and if installed in a identical vehicle the gas will be faster but the diesel will have more pulling power and better fuel economy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:59 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
geordi wrote:
Rice-truckers aren't interested in an honest apples-to-apples comparison, b/c they are dedicated to the misconception that HP is better than torque. This same misconception has "enhanced" the bodily dimensions of riceboys for years, as they have added layers of vinyl to their hamster-powered Honduhs and Toy-yotas. They insist that 4 tiny cylinders at 9000 RPM gives them more speed than the V8 2500 rpm torque monster Mustang or Camaro next to them... And then insist that they must have "missed a shift" or something when they are staring at tail lights time and again.

Even the top-end argument doesn't hold water, because it STILL takes more POWER than HP to move a vehicle faster. Give the CRD more than the 5 gears it has, keep the engine in its power band of 2200 RPM... And it will probably be able to reach escape velocity without problems.

HP is simply the application of TORQUE over time. If you don't have the torque to begin with, you have nothing. The biggest engine in the world only spins at 150 RPM. But ask how much torque it develops. :D

Put it another way: The job you need to do is removing the dirt from digging out a swimming pool. Each trip to the dumpster is one revolution. Each full load is torque. Which gets more work done - Using a teacup, or a wheelbarrow?

Even accounting for the loading time, the wheelbarrow will win every time. Just like the diesel. But I hear that if you add some more stickers to your truck TJ, you will get 5hp for each one. ;)
Hey I'm not saying diesels are bad,they are ment for heavy hauling/towing and that is where they shine.In speed race gas will win easier then a diesel will anyday,that is just fact for now.leave the Lemans winners out since they have more money tied in the vehicles then what California has in dept.

Pound for pound a gas engine can make more power,by what I mean is take a side by side comparison(apples to apples where everything is the same besides the fuel used)......................

Starting with the engines,both will be identical cubic inches,identical configurations,and identical intake setups.The gas version will make more power if they both are naturally aspirated,add a turbo and the diesel will make a bit more torque but the diesel will weigh more then the gas,the gas will have better throttle response and if installed in a identical vehicle the gas will be faster but the diesel will have more pulling power and better fuel economy.


haven't mercedes done this already time and time again with their cars... the M class CDI is faster than it's gas counterpart.. as well as the C class CDI and both the diesels spank the gas in fuel milage

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:50 pm 
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05infernoCRDL wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
geordi wrote:
Rice-truckers aren't interested in an honest apples-to-apples comparison, b/c they are dedicated to the misconception that HP is better than torque. This same misconception has "enhanced" the bodily dimensions of riceboys for years, as they have added layers of vinyl to their hamster-powered Honduhs and Toy-yotas. They insist that 4 tiny cylinders at 9000 RPM gives them more speed than the V8 2500 rpm torque monster Mustang or Camaro next to them... And then insist that they must have "missed a shift" or something when they are staring at tail lights time and again.

Even the top-end argument doesn't hold water, because it STILL takes more POWER than HP to move a vehicle faster. Give the CRD more than the 5 gears it has, keep the engine in its power band of 2200 RPM... And it will probably be able to reach escape velocity without problems.

HP is simply the application of TORQUE over time. If you don't have the torque to begin with, you have nothing. The biggest engine in the world only spins at 150 RPM. But ask how much torque it develops. :D

Put it another way: The job you need to do is removing the dirt from digging out a swimming pool. Each trip to the dumpster is one revolution. Each full load is torque. Which gets more work done - Using a teacup, or a wheelbarrow?

Even accounting for the loading time, the wheelbarrow will win every time. Just like the diesel. But I hear that if you add some more stickers to your truck TJ, you will get 5hp for each one. ;)
Hey I'm not saying diesels are bad,they are ment for heavy hauling/towing and that is where they shine.In speed race gas will win easier then a diesel will anyday,that is just fact for now.leave the Lemans winners out since they have more money tied in the vehicles then what California has in dept.

Pound for pound a gas engine can make more power,by what I mean is take a side by side comparison(apples to apples where everything is the same besides the fuel used)......................

Starting with the engines,both will be identical cubic inches,identical configurations,and identical intake setups.The gas version will make more power if they both are naturally aspirated,add a turbo and the diesel will make a bit more torque but the diesel will weigh more then the gas,the gas will have better throttle response and if installed in a identical vehicle the gas will be faster but the diesel will have more pulling power and better fuel economy.


haven't mercedes done this already time and time again with their cars... the M class CDI is faster than it's gas counterpart.. as well as the C class CDI and both the diesels spank the gas in fuel milage
The CDI's is turbocharged while the gas versions are not,not apples to apples.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:38 pm 
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Location: Wisconsin Northwoods
tjkj2002 wrote:
The CDI's is turbocharged while the gas versions are not,not apples to apples.


How did this discussion become about Turbocharging? The initial post is comparing a CRD to a Bigger displacement gas engined Jeep. The statement was made that a Diesel engine will beat a gasser off the line because of it's vastly greater low end torque. This is an inescapable fact. Naturally aspirated diesels are rarer than hen's teeth these days. The reason is because diesels lend themselves so well to turbocharging, while gasoline engines do not. The fact remains that a Turbodiesel will beat a similar displacement gas engine off the line every time. At least for the first few seconds.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:38 pm
Posts: 12988
Location: Colorado Springs
nursecosmo wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
The CDI's is turbocharged while the gas versions are not,not apples to apples.


How did this discussion become about Turbocharging? The initial post is comparing a CRD to a Bigger displacement gas engined Jeep. The statement was made that a Diesel engine will beat a gasser off the line because of it's vastly greater low end torque. This is an inescapable fact. Naturally aspirated diesels are rarer than hen's teeth these days. The reason is because diesels lend themselves so well to turbocharging, while gasoline engines do not. The fact remains that a Turbodiesel will beat a similar displacement gas engine off the line every time. At least for the first few seconds.
Not true,diesels just don't make any power without a turbo.Point in fact the H1's with the naturally aspirated 6.5's make about 130hp and 250lbs-ft or torque(got the dyno sheets with every engine) while the turbocharged 6.5's made 195hp and 435lbs-ft of torque,same engine,same injection pump,same fuel nozzles just different way's of getting air into them.Take the turbo of that 2.8 and it will fall flat on it's face.And a yes you just can't turbo any gas engine,you do need to build a gas engine to live with a turbo with anything more then 2-4psi of boost.


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