To avoid hijacking anyone's thread let this be the general tech thread if anyone has questions for the great folks at GDE. I'll start off with my post from the other thread, and GDE's reply to my problem.

----------------------------

Green Diesel, maybe you can offer some insight to this: Under low RPM operation and usually just following a braking event such as a random slowdown of traffic or rolling through a turn... When I get back on the go-pedal, the boost rises relatively slowly on my gauge, the EGT also slowly increases... But the CRD is not accelerating strongly at all. Instead, it feels like it is bogging down and it blows HUGE clouds of smoke until I almost floor it. Then like flipping a lightswitch, it suddenly applies the power to the ground and accelerates strongly.

This is 100% reproducible by braking from 60 down to 30, then getting back onto the go-pedal. I'd be happy to send you a CSV map from the Autoenginuity scanner, just tell me what sensors to map. I suspected the boost sensor, but that obviously isn't the problem. I do think that this is electronic though, for the repeatability and the fact that when it "fixes" it is just like my VW TDI when the MAF was bad - The car would be trying to figure out the erroneous sensor signal, while performing in exactly the same way - Simply not accelerating at all (no smoke from the VW tho) then it would "give up" and go to a default number, and the car would accelerate sharply when the computer changed the data.

Thanks for any insight.

Their reply.

Finally... My reply to GDE.

I will try to capture all those points, IIRC I can view at least 9 things at the same time in the "live gauges" page, it should be simple to ask the program to record the data into a CSV from that.

Now, I have a follow up question: I have an SEGR still installed on my CRD. How is your programming reducing the EGR usage if the computer is trying to force the EGR by closing the FCV? If this is the case, I think a removal of the FCV butterfly is in my future. The EGR has no power connected, b/c the SEGR eliminates that... I also have no way to re-stock that system b/c my stupid self managed to lose the dummy plug. I do understand the need to be careful on the level of EGR reduction in the computer... But maybe an adjustment to the program to eliminate this FCV-choke would be allowable? That way, we can keep the FCV's shutdown function and just eliminate the bad stuff. Thoughts?

Thanks for the help. I'm not entirely certain whether the car was doing this before I got your tune, but maybe just for giggles I will also swap the stock ECU back in and see if it does the same thing when recording the data.

AND the SEGR disables the FCV in drive (disconnected). The FCV (when SEGR controlled) is only active in Park or Neutral.

Huh... Didn't know that. Ok, so that just adds to the confusion then.

Maybe one of the SEGR owners could lend you the bypass, or you could ask one of the builder, to send you one. I am guessing it is a cheap part. I will give your test a try, as I have no SEGR.

I promise not to hijack you thread, I have done that my self a few times

_________________
20 year owner of Libby CRD!
2006 LTD Bright Silver loaded with all the needed mods, CCV intact.
Equipped with HDS thermostat, plenty of heat, faster warm-ups, increased fuel mileage.

With the tune the FCV is always open except for engine shutdown, when it closes to help reduce mount excursion. The EGR is always shut except for one certain condition, right after a hard acceleration when the throttle is reduced and there is residual boost pushing against the turbo. Here the valve is opened for about 0.5 seconds to help balance the pressure. This is just a "nice to have" feature and during the same maneuver we open the vanes on the turbo to reduce the residual boost as well. The turbo has a greater effect on this situation anyway. As for SEGR, the tune will work the same with it or without it. We do not know how the SEGR wiring is set up, but if it does not cause a code in stock configuration then it will not cause one with the tune installed as well. We hope this addresses your concerns.

_________________
Providers of wholly developed aftermarket solutions for the KJ CRD.
(248) 977 - 9531

With an SEGR installed, electrical control of the EGR valve is totally disabled, thus making the EGR electrically unable to open at all. The GDE tune "turbo pressure balance" enhancement would thus be disabled if SEGR is installed.

This is OK with me, since even a intermittently/light duty operated EGR valve will inevitably fail and cause codes and/or driveability problems with the need to replace the valve to fix the caused problems.

The FCV works the same as the GDE tune, as TurboTim has stated above (always open until shutdown).

FCV definition? Is is the same as the anti shudder valve on a VW TDI?

_________________
20 year owner of Libby CRD!
2006 LTD Bright Silver loaded with all the needed mods, CCV intact.
Equipped with HDS thermostat, plenty of heat, faster warm-ups, increased fuel mileage.

Yes but it also helps regulates EGR

_________________
Atlantic Blue 06 CRD Limited (his)
Joined by a 2000 XJ Classic (hers)

Zombie Thread (tm) Back from the dead!

Ok, I'm still having this same problem. I know its been a long time since the original post, but in that time I have moved my sister's apartment twice, and moved myself 500 miles to Lynchburg Va for a new job. So I've been a bit preoccupied.

I have tried to get the AutoEnginuity scanner to record all the requested datapoints while the CRD was behaving badly, but whether it is a failing of the program OR our frankenputer system... It will SHOW me the data, but seems to only update the recorded points with about a 3 second resolution. NOT helpful, when the problem happens and resolves itself in LESS than that time usually!

I paid special attention to everything I *do* have access to today, when it did this, so hopefully the fine folks at GDE can discern something from my results.

The engine was not stone-cold, but neither was it up to center on the temp-gauge. It was at the 11:30 position, the ambient temp was 58*F, altitude is roughly 1000 feet, terrain mostly flat. The engine had been running for about 5 minutes while in slow moving traffic. On the suggestion of the guy who installed the new engine, I had the MAF unplugged to see if that changed the behavior any. It didn't, but I mention it for accuracy.

Accelerating onto an entrance ramp (slightly downhill) from 25mph, it went into it's 'behaving badly' mode when I asked it to accelerate with moderate throttle. I was asking for the acceleration, the engine sound increased like it wanted to provide... But it FELT like it was bogging. No acceleration in response to the throttle, just noise. The tach was at 2500, boost rose from ~5 to 12/13 on my non-computer boost gauge, and the needle WIGGLED at that point for the next few seconds until the engine "woke up" and the boost then shot up to 24. While the boost was at 12/13, the EGT was at 1200, a HUGE cloud of black smoke was following me, and the engine actually sounded like it was KNOCKING.

It has only done the knocking thing a couple times, and of course... NEVER when I have the computer on it, and I can't seem to get it to repeat it so I can duplicate it or record it. But it sounds like a Ford Excursion diesel I heard in traffic once. Once the boost shot up, the rest of the performance returned to normal and I couldn't get it to do that noise again, but it DID do the smoking-with-no-acceleration thing again less than a minute later when I tried to reproduce the noise.

Thoughts? Things to try? I'm sorry that I can't seem to record any useful data. I can send you the files I have, but with the timestamps being so far apart, I can't see how they would have any usable info.

FWIW, this feels EXACTLY like on my VW TDI when the MAF was providing garbage info to the computer. It would NOT accelerate when I asked it to, until the computer 'gave up' and went to a failsafe number for that sensor. But the VW didn't smoke when doing that, it just would bog in traffic and not accelerate. Usually only when I had first started the engine, and was leaving a parking lot or something where I NEEDED that acceleration in order to not be crushed in traffic. This is very similar, except that it will do it EVERY TIME I go to accelerate from a low speed (or a stop) so it isn't finding that failsafe data for some reason.

I have the SEGR, so it shouldn't be trying to use the FCV at all according to Turbo Tim, however I have no way to check that - the Scanner program did not have any data point that was labeled "flow control" or similar.

This issue sounds like a sluggish turbo, but we need to verify the hardware and history. Does this only happen during the warm-up phase or can you initiate it with a warm engine? How many times per driving cycle on average does it occur? Normally, is the vehicle performing good?

Is this the current vehicle configuration? SEGR, eco tune, and MAF unplugged

Does the problem ever occur with the stock tune? Can you list all the stored CELs? We may need to try different configurations if the issue is following one of the mods.

If the boost is lagging with moderate fueling it could cause the condition you are experiencing. There would be a lot of unburnt fuel and hydrocarbons going through the turbo. The turbo response issue could be a leaking actuator (rare), sticking turbo vanes, a vacuum supply issue (lines, actuator, on/off solenoid). However, if hardware is the problem, it should be somewhat repeatable. The solenoid is easy to by-pass by moving the vacuum supply line straight to the turbo solonoid inlet.

The problem could also occur if the engine was out of time or if there are valve float issues due to weak springs. The timing would be noticeable everywhere and the valve springs could be an intermittant issue that gets worse over time. These are both doubtful based on the information.

Are you always running #2 diesel? A sticky fuel metering valve on the high pressure pump could cause momentary low fuel pressure and this could also lead to very high exhaust temps and poor boost response. Did the vehicle have many no-start conditions in the past due to air in the fuel?

Sorry for so many questions, but it will help for root causing the issue.

Thanks

_________________
Providers of wholly developed aftermarket solutions for the KJ CRD.
(248) 977 - 9531

Hey, I'm good with lots of questions. You guys have been rockstars for us, and I'm happy to answer whatever. Heck, it may help someone else who blunders into the same problem.

I don't know for the springs, but the cylinder head had been completely rebuilt during the engine replacement, when the timing tensioner pulled off the front cover and the pistons demolished all 16 rockers. That $$$sucked.

This turbo was purchased NEW from Mopar last February to replace the one that snapped the turbine shaft due to reasons unknown. So it *should* be working fine. I know that the vane actuator moved easily, and that the vacuum motor offered STRONG resistance to my fingers pushing on the rod. But then again, there wasn't a lot of purchase to get on that little rod while it was in my hands. I installed the EGT probe in the turbo's manifold entrance before installation into the CRD, and the mechanic retained this turbo b/c of the EGT probe. So I know this is the NEW turbo that I bought.

I notice the sluggishness more when the engine is colder, down in Savannah it would only do it once or twice and then the engine was at 170 degrees (according to the computer anyway) and it didn't want to reproduce anymore. So it would seem to be related to a cold engine. Here in Virginia now, with cooler days and low humidity, I cannot recall seeing the temp gauge at full vertical anytime recently. My morning commute is 20 miles at 65mph, so it really only presents when I'm heading out to lunch - 3-4 hours later. Cool / cold engine, slow speeds downhill on a college campus, then the first time I ask anything of it, I'm either trying to accelerate into traffic OR climb a short 30 degree hill. Smoke everywhere then, and no power.

I seem to recall that the stock tune did this too, I will swap the original ECU back in and try that one tonight. The CRD has been sitting for hours now, so its cold again.

The boost ramp on the external gauge seems smooth enough, but it stalls in the vicinity of 15psi when this happens. Otherwise, it is fairly smooth rising into the 20s. One note: Codes... If I put my foot REALLY into it when it is stumbling through this, when it clears "like flipping a lightswitch" the boost will spike to 29-31. I have SEEN it hit 31, and I will get an overboost then. It immediately backs off from that 31 to 22 or so, but it is a RAPID shot from being stuck at 15 to the 31. What a spike.

Other than that, there haven't really been any codes. There were a few from the 'brake pedal mismatch' which turned out to be that my trailer had blown the brake pedal fuse... But not the brake LIGHT fuses. Stupid Mopar, had 3 fuses for one simple circuit. I've got the rest saved on my other laptop, I'll get those and post them, but I'm fairly certain they don't apply. Mostly b/c they haven't re-appeared since I fixed the brake issue.

The vacuum solenoid stuff... That collection of plastic was somehow broken off its mounting point (probably by the mechanic who didn't want to tell me about it, he also broke a fog light mount) but only the plastic bracket is damaged. The box (vacuum canister?) is intact, and nowhere near the broken plastic at the bottom. But is that where the solenoid is? What will happen if I bypass that solenoid? Won't the turbo vanes be locked in the fully-closed max-boost position from the vacuum?

Fuel - I'd love to run biodiesel, if I could get it. Nope, #2 only for the last 20k or more. Certainly since this engine was installed and I finally got it back in May / June. I don't know for the fuel pump, I think it was from the new (used) engine. Fuel filter is new as of a few days ago, thought that might be part of it. Nope. I have a lift pump as well, so no air-in-fuel problems since last summer, 14 months ago. Fuel heater is unplugged, but I don't think that is related either, b/c of the air temps in Georgia before I left. It was doing this when it was 85 out.

Let me send this post up, and go try the original ECU for a bit. Ask away on any follow-up questions, I'm happy to answer if it fixes this car trying to kill me in traffic.

Ok, original ECU back in. 55* out, raining and night. So its cold. The engine was stone-cold, and it did NOT perform the same as the GDE tuned ECU did. I could feel it lagging a little, but nowhere near the level of the tune. I left the stock ECU in, so I can get a better idea of whether it will pull this tomorrow or not.

I did notice this however: My boost gauge's probe (tube) is mounted into the intercooler's exit pipe. So it should be giving me LESS of a reading, presuming that the intercooler is making the air more dense which should lower the raw boost number a little. On the stock tune tonight, with moderate acceleration, the boost would rise smoothly and rapidly to 30. Every time. It would back off from there to about 22 or so, but it hit 30 every single time I accelerated from either a stop or a foot-off-the-go-pedal zero boost condition. When I floored it from a stop, the boost shot up (slightly faster speed) to 30, then backed off to 25 and held there... The tires broke loose AFTER I was moving (when the boost crossed 25 the first time) and I got limp mode and what I'm sure is an overboost code. Oh yea, and limp mode b/c of the overboost.

Up until I got the CRD back, I had NEVER had an overboost code. Initially after getting the CRD back, I thought the overboost might have been b/c of the Edge module (which is now sold) but no... It is something else, obviously. With the stock tune that I have had since I got the CRD and even after I got the GDE tune, I had not been able to break the tires loose even in the RAIN except with a brake stand.

I'm thinking it is related to the boost solenoid or the vacuum control, but I don't know enough about it to make an accurate judgment. Your learned opinions?

If you had access to a vacuum gauge (like you would use on a carbureted vehicle, for example), it would be good to install it via a Tee at the turbo charger actuator so you can see what is happening during the maneuver. This would be important to know if there is some issue with the vacuum system.

Regarding the vacuum system, there are two items there that have different purposes: there is the vacuum reservoir solenoid, this is the smaller of the two units. It's purpose is to seal the reservoir shut when the key is turned off to preserve the vacuum for the cold start when it takes some seconds to build vacuum back up. The larger of the two units is the PWM actuator that actually controls the amount of vacuum going to the turbo actuator and in turn controlling boost. The first one you can bypass in case you think there is an issue. For that matter, you can actually bypass the entire contraption and hook the vacuum source straight to the PWM actuator.

The stalling of the engine performance sounds like either the injection isn't working correctly which I doubt because it doesn't happen all the time or there is somehow a possibility that the airflow to the engine is being compromised. If you can confirm that there isn't an issue with a hose collapsing and can confirm that the turbo vanes aren't for some reason going to maximum closed (do this with vacuum gauge), then I would look to the throttle valve for possibly closing due to a pressure surge. Based on having talked to GDE before and understanding how they did their tune, it commands a PWM duty cycle to the throttle valve to stay 100% open during normal driving. Based on how the SEGR not only disconnects the MAF but the actuators as well, if you have a weak throttle valve it could somehow jam itself closed and/or partially closed which will limit airflow and, consequently, have the engine making lots of smoke and knocking from incomplete combustion.

If you have the opportunity to measure and/or visualize some parameters with a scan tool, it would be most beneficial.

I had to replace the Actuator Solenoid and and another related part from the same symptoms...all the boost and performance returned.

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... highlight=

_________________
Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport
Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph

Ok, it sounds like the engine has some issues that are not related to which calibration you are running, stock or GDE. The GDE may amplify the issue as it can dump more fuel in that situation.

For now we should try the following: run with GDE controller and by -pass the on/off solenoid by moving the vacuum supply line to the turbo PWM actuator inlet. Check the PWM actuator outlet vacuum line to the turbocharger for any cracks, melting, etc. See if this eliminates the issue.

Is there potential for a wiring issue with the SEGR? Is there an easy way to unplug it and run the stock configuration easily in order to rule it out as well. Make sure to test each change individually.

If neither of these make a difference, you could send the GDE tuned ECU back to us for review and we will ship it back after running it on one of our vehicles. Maybe there is some sort of internal issue with the spare controller, although that would not explain why the stock controller is also showing some issues. Is your vehicle an 05 or 06?

If you remove the inlet hose at the engine intake, you can check the FCV valve to make sure the butterfly valve is working well. With key off it should be open and have good spring back force if you manually push it closed. With key on the butterfly should be forcefully held open and not be moveable with pressure put on it.

Your manual boost gauge is in a good location, the engine controller measures it in the intake manifold and that should be slightly lower than where you are measuring it (maybe up to one psi lower).

Let us know what your checks show. Thanks

_________________
Providers of wholly developed aftermarket solutions for the KJ CRD.
(248) 977 - 9531

Thanks for helping with this, BTW.

After driving it around today (44* out, raining) I think we might be getting closer to at least ruling some things out. I drove it around with the stock ECU on it, and it pulled the SAME trick on me after driving the 20 miles and then only sitting for about 2 hours. So I don't believe it is the tune. The engine temp worked its way up to one tick-mark below dead-center, which is the point it has gotten to when "warmed up" in recent memory. The engine wasn't stone cold when it pulled the smoking thing on me today, but I didn't notice exactly where the temp was at the time. I was more interested in the fact that I saw my boost gauge run up to 32 psi when the engine 'woke up' instead of its usual 30 at that point.

I'm going to try moving the vacuum line next, and I'll report back about any performance changes. The SEGR has been installed since barely a week after I got the truck, and I don't have the bypass plug anymore. Lost it somewhere... But this is a new problem, so I highly doubt that it is involved. I'll check on the FCV. Last time I tried anything with the FCV, I was also having other issues due to the brake switch fuse being blown. I mistakenly believed that unplugging the FCV was somehow related to losing both the cruise control and not being able to select ONLY the parking lights without having the headlamps come on as well. Call it a gremlin.

I'm starting to believe that this is related to the boost controller, and that maybe there is a 'sticking point' in the action somewhere or that the controller is leaking vacuum somehow.

I am wondering if you missed my post...I had almost the same symptoms. Very sluggish down low...higher rpm and speeds it was just about normal.

_________________
Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport
Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph

geordi, let me know if you want me to make you a bypass plug. I still have a few spare parts for those.

_________________
'05 Liberty CRD B100, SEGR - SOLD

'01 Beetle TDi B100, EGR delete
'83 Mercedes 240D B100, no EGR

--- SEGR Builder ---