Engine idle "knock" ...

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:30 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

nursecosmo wrote:

I don't think that aldehydes are commonly found in diesel fuel or additives (in any appreciable quantities), nor should they damage the CAT. They are however a byproduct of catalyzed biodiesel exhaust gas. They are one of the components of those pungent eye-burning fumes you get when bio is burnt in the CRD. That is the primary reason for which I gutted my cat.

Or is someone making a new perfume called biodieselaldahydenstink?
My point is zinc acts like a cataylist to produce aldehydes that stink, at least that is my opinion.
Does yours differ?

I suppose that that is within the range of possibility. I am missing how this is relevant to sonix's knocking problem.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:04 pm

nursecosmo wrote:

warp2diesel wrote:

nursecosmo wrote:

I don't think that aldehydes are commonly found in diesel fuel or additives (in any appreciable quantities), nor should they damage the CAT. They are however a byproduct of catalyzed biodiesel exhaust gas. They are one of the components of those pungent eye-burning fumes you get when bio is burnt in the CRD. That is the primary reason for which I gutted my cat.

Or is someone making a new perfume called biodieselaldahydenstink?
My point is zinc acts like a cataylist to produce aldehydes that stink, at least that is my opinion.
Does yours differ?

I suppose that that is within the range of possibility. I am missing how this is relevant to sonix's knocking problem.

Zinc in a snake oil additive will get into the combustion chamber.
In the combustion chamber the zinc will act like a catalyst and produce aldahydes, that stink.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:08 pm

Maybe y'all are burning something ELSE in your tanks along with the biodiesel... But my VW TDI and my CRD both have not had any bad eye-burning stink with biodiesel. Quite the opposite in fact. Dino diesel had the properties of irritating my eyes, ESPECIALLY if I happened to get some that wasn't quite ulsd, since my CRD has also been de-fuzzenmeowen.

It purrrs a lot, but theres no cat there unless he's riding inside on my lap! :lol:

As for the knocking problem and how it relates: Perhaps if Sonix had some metal hardening agents like Zinc or Molybdenum his top end wouldn't be making noise. Personally, I would choose a longer-lasting engine EVERY TIME over a minor emissions concern, especially since when the zinc was removed, fuels were still more dirty than they are now. I think the Zinc and moly additives could come back, and SHOULD... Except that wouldn't sit well with the crowd that wants us buying a new car every 3 years or so.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:42 pm

geordi wrote:

Maybe y'all are burning something ELSE in your tanks along with the biodiesel... But my VW TDI and my CRD both have not had any bad eye-burning stink with biodiesel. Quite the opposite in fact. Dino diesel had the properties of irritating my eyes, ESPECIALLY if I happened to get some that wasn't quite ulsd, since my CRD has also been de-fuzzenmeowen.

It purrrs a lot, but theres no cat there unless he's riding inside on my lap! :lol:

As for the knocking problem and how it relates: Perhaps if Sonix had some metal hardening agents like Zinc or Molybdenum his top end wouldn't be making noise. Personally, I would choose a longer-lasting engine EVERY TIME over a minor emissions concern, especially since when the zinc was removed, fuels were still more dirty than they are now. I think the Zinc and moly additives could come back, and SHOULD... Except that wouldn't sit well with the crowd that wants us buying a new car every 3 years or so.

I'm burning the same stuff that you are. When the CAT had it's guts, BD would have an eye-burning smell like acetic acid. This odor is caused primarily by acetaldehyde and it's relatives. once the CAT is removed from the system, one should only be able to detect normal "Good" biodiesel smell. Before removing the CAT guts, the exhaust did not have a particular smell when burning dino-diesel. Now I love the smell, even though most people find it offensive.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852688/

Once again, I don't know what this has to do with the engine knocking problem.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:31 am

I don't know that you were burning the same bio that I was... You are up in the cheesy hinterlands, I was exiled to America's Elephant Graveyard. I also don't know about your bio's feedstock, it could be cheese curds and cow renderings for all I know. I do know that most of the stuff I was getting in Florida was either 60/40 waste soy / virgin soy, or 100% Shmaltz. (chicken fat) The chicken grease was the best stuff. I got a SOLID 3mpg bump off that stuff, and you couldn't hear the engine running at all.

And that was when I had the cat still installed, and no smells. I think the difference must be the feedstocks. When I had the cat off, the second tank after I pulled it was *ahem* slightly non-spec for normal use... And STANK like the rotten eggs it contained. BUT, it gave better mileage than the ulsd stuff. Sad that all the best mileage fuels are very difficult to obtain and use. But regular ulsd, if it makes mine smell now, I don't notice it.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:59 am

Tennessee WVO. Aquired from a Mexican resturant, Chineese take out, and seafood grill peanut oil. The peanut oil gave me the best milege, but I loved the smell of running the chineese soy in my SVO F-250. Yummy.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:38 pm

You guys are making me hungry...

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:52 pm

nursecosmo wrote:

Tennessee WVO. Aquired from a Mexican resturant, Chineese take out, and seafood grill peanut oil. The peanut oil gave me the best milege, but I loved the smell of running the chineese soy in my SVO F-250. Yummy.

Peanuts are a good source of zinc as is their oil.

More aldahydes, more aroma.

I wonder if the zinc in peanut oil will help the valve seats last longer :?:

I wonder if the L-Arginine in the peanut oil will keep the injectors going longer :?:

Sonix · **Posted:** Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:54 am

I've got the cam cover off ....can someone have a look at my next problem please? ...I've started a new thrtead for it here:
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=48071

Thanx

linewarbr · **Posted:** Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:32 am

My first is that I would suggest doing a used oil analysis on the engine oil that was in when you noticed the knock. Any abnormal wear metals could help you identify any internal engine parts affected.

The second is: have you considered an injector as a source of the knock? If your engine is common-rail, then the normal injector sound is very noticeable, and sounds a lot like tapping valves in a 100k+ mile gas engine. You could have something as simple as an injector failing in some way, such as being a little "off time," and making an abnormal sound.

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

That's a good point about the injector. But most of the descriptions I've heard of injector failures are described as a ticking not knocking.

Sonix · **Posted:** Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:17 pm

Thought I will give a little update ...
I'm not a mechanic, so it takes some time for me to do stuff on the engine ....
Opened it till I got to the lifters and rockers ...tested each one of them, closed up and hoped that the lifter might stop clacking .... what the @#$@# was I thinking! :roll:

We used a filter cutter to cut open the oil filter, and low and behold! ...the filter is full of tiny pieces of copper .... KABAM! ... so it's either pieces of one of the rings, or pieces of one of the beerings.
So far it looks like it could maybe only be one of the rings (the copper from the beerings is usually a redish copper color ....the rings are a lighter gold-copper color ....same as the pieces in the filter .... soooooo tomorrow the top will come off .... HOPEFULLY I will only have to replace the rings, and maybe one of the sleeves? ... but only time will tell ...I will have to take out the sump anyway, so I'll see then for sure ...
I'm just a bit worried about the sump ...it looks like it's a HELL of a job to get the sump out!

Something else I've noticed .... my friend came to "test" the injectors ....when I disconnect the little backflow pipes from the injectors, and I start the engine, the first injector pushes out almost 3 times more diesel through the backflow, than the other injectors ..... any ideas ?

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:55 pm

Sorry to hear about the fillings in the sump. A simple test to determine whether or not a ring is broke is to just check the compression. We do not have copper piston rings. They are CKS and do not even look like copper. www.cesomot.cz/doc_en/GOETZE-Diamond-Co ... -Rings.pdf It sounds like you may have eaten a bearing.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:58 pm

X2, leave the top on and for now and pull the pan.

MACKJ · **Posted:** Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:01 pm

Sonix wrote:

Something else I've noticed .... my friend came to "test" the injectors ....when I disconnect the little backflow pipes from the injectors, and I start the engine, the first injector pushes out almost 3 times more diesel through the backflow, than the other injectors ..... any ideas ?

I would say you have a faulty/sticking injector, too much leakage. Replace that one and see if it reduces the knock sound, but be more worried about that copper.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:11 pm

tiny pieces of copper - mean it's time to learn how to rebuild an engine.

Sonix · **Posted:** Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:28 am

ATXKJ ....trust me ...I'm learning allright! :shock:

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:48 am

Make sure the bearing has not spun in the bore, wore through, or discolored.
Chances are if the inside of the connecting rod bore is white steel colored and not browned or blue, it is OK and only the bearing insert was damaged.
Then look at the crank, white steel look is what you want to see.
If metal is deposited on the crank journal consult someone who knows what they are looking at and can determine if the journal can be cleaned up or polished with fine Emory cloth.
Then take very careful measurements use Plastigauge and verify bearing clearances.
Read the KJ FSM and ask questions.

Engine idle "knock" ...

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