Biodiesel

UFO · **Posted:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:10 am

flyboy wrote:

My experience with bio diesel was a bad one.I dont know what the CRD Libertys in USA run like with bio but i used to have a 98 XJ 2.5 diesel Cherokee here in Aussie and after using bio diesel for just over a year i had a leaking fuel pump that had to be completely rebuilt due to worn internals thanks to the aggresive nature of bio diesel.That was a A$3000.00 mistake.I did ask the local Jeep dealership before turning to the alternative and they advised me against it due to lack of testing. :evil:

Have since brought a 2005 CRD KJ (your equivelent of the Liberty) and won't touch bio diesel.

Unless you had crap fuel, it wasn't the biodiesel. This engine, as cited above, does very well and lasts on biodiesel. I've been running B100 in summer, and blends in the winter for two years with ZERO problems over 30k miles.

tcoilburner · **Posted:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:35 am

UFO wrote:

flyboy wrote:

My experience with bio diesel was a bad one.I dont know what the CRD Libertys in USA run like with bio but i used to have a 98 XJ 2.5 diesel Cherokee here in Aussie and after using bio diesel for just over a year i had a leaking fuel pump that had to be completely rebuilt due to worn internals thanks to the aggresive nature of bio diesel.That was a A$3000.00 mistake.I did ask the local Jeep dealership before turning to the alternative and they advised me against it due to lack of testing. :evil:

Have since brought a 2005 CRD KJ (your equivelent of the Liberty) and won't touch bio diesel.

Unless you had crap fuel, it wasn't the biodiesel. This engine, as cited above, does very well and lasts on biodiesel. I've been running B100 in summer, and blends in the winter for two years with ZERO problems over 30k miles.

I am very sorry to here about your troubles with bio. The 98 cherokee may not have had the new style seal and o-rings. We here in the states were not able to buy small diesel then. It may still had the older natural rubber seal and o-rings. I run b5 to b20 depending where I refuel, no problems in 42,000 miles. In the states our crd's came with b5 from the factory.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:49 am

I have nearly 90000 miles on my CRD and have run B100 for the first 20K and intermittently since then when ever I can get it. I have had no leak, no worn out internals or any problem whatsoever. I did have leaking issues with some older VW injection pumps which had the non resistant seals.

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:00 am

Big Montana wrote:

My dream was always Bio, but I heard it wil eat the fuel lines and other components that must be changed over to handle the Bio.

As others have stated, this is an old wives tale from people taking 80's vintage diesels (MB's and the like) and running bio in them. Bio would eat the seals and hoses of those older cars. New cars don't have this problem.

But on the flip side with the very high pressures that new car fuel systems run under they are more sensitive to the quality of the bio. So unless you are an accomplished home-brewer I would only run ASTM certified bio from a reputable source.

macjack · **Joined:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:43 am **Posts:** 10

Hi all,
I have been running B50 since this fall, B100 this summer. We recently had a cold snap and it has not gotten above 10 or so for the past several days. We have been plugging in for a few hours each morning, but have no garage so it is out in the cold.
The CRD is not starting, or rather it starts and runs for about 3 seconds, then dies.
I have a lift pump and Racor fuel filter installed, so I am guessing that the filter is heating a small amount of fuel and that fuel will fire, but then future fuel delivery is still gelled.
I added some anti gelling after the cold hit, and tried to add some petro diesel. This is the most interesting part: the petrodiesel filled the fuel filler neck and would not drain. I pushed in the little metal flap thingie, and still the fuel filler neck is filled with diesel and not draining, so it must be some sort of vent line clogged.
Anybody seen this?
If it is the filler vent line, will it just thaw out when it warms up or might there be a partially decaying (from the B100) rubber line in there?
Thanks in advance,
-macjack

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:02 pm

macjack wrote:

Hi all,
I have been running B50 since this fall, B100 this summer. We recently had a cold snap and it has not gotten above 10 or so for the past several days. We have been plugging in for a few hours each morning, but have no garage so it is out in the cold.
The CRD is not starting, or rather it starts and runs for about 3 seconds, then dies.
I have a lift pump and Racor fuel filter installed, so I am guessing that the filter is heating a small amount of fuel and that fuel will fire, but then future fuel delivery is still gelled.
I added some anti gelling after the cold hit, and tried to add some petro diesel. This is the most interesting part: the petrodiesel filled the fuel filler neck and would not drain. I pushed in the little metal flap thingie, and still the fuel filler neck is filled with diesel and not draining, so it must be some sort of vent line clogged.
Anybody seen this?
If it is the filler vent line, will it just thaw out when it warms up or might there be a partially decaying (from the B100) rubber line in there?
Thanks in advance,
-macjack

It sure sounds like you made jelly. Adding an antigell after it gets cold doesn't fix the fuel which is already gelled. Unless there has been a breakthrough antigell additive released within the past year or two, antigell products are really not very effective with biodiesel. The ones formulated for dinodiesel don't work for BD. BD doesn't have any wax and clouding occurs via a different process than in dino diesel. You will probably just have to wait for warmer weather. If you put a filter wrap on the Racor, you may be able to get the fuel flowing long enough to get heated return fuel back to the tank to thaw things out.

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:13 pm

macjack wrote:

Hi all,
I have been running B50 since this fall, B100 this summer. We recently had a cold snap and it has not gotten above 10 or so for the past several days. We have been plugging in for a few hours each morning, but have no garage so it is out in the cold.
The CRD is not starting, or rather it starts and runs for about 3 seconds, then dies.
I have a lift pump and Racor fuel filter installed, so I am guessing that the filter is heating a small amount of fuel and that fuel will fire, but then future fuel delivery is still gelled.
I added some anti gelling after the cold hit, and tried to add some petro diesel. This is the most interesting part: the petrodiesel filled the fuel filler neck and would not drain. I pushed in the little metal flap thingie, and still the fuel filler neck is filled with diesel and not draining, so it must be some sort of vent line clogged.
Anybody seen this?
If it is the filler vent line, will it just thaw out when it warms up or might there be a partially decaying (from the B100) rubber line in there?
Thanks in advance,
-macjack

Mack, I think you're dead-on. The same thing happend to me when I ran B100 in May a few years back and the temp got down to the 30s. The gelling could be anywhere (lines, in-tank unit, head, common-rail injector). If you haven't picked up a bottle of powerservice 911, do so. Also, if you can open up the lines at the head and run a hair dryer over them to let as much fuel as possible gravity-drain, that'll help. Also, to help get some petro-diesel in there, mix up a gallor or so with the appropriate amount of 911 in it and put it in a clean container and put your filter head inlet straight into that container. It'll be filtered the same as the fuel from your tank, but you'll be able to circulate the ULSD/911 in the expensive parts and probably help loosen up any other gelled sections.

As soon as you get it running, top off the tank with ULSD to bring down the concentration as much as you can.

Dan

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:37 am

One thing to remember when using BD in winter, is that not all BD is created equal. Different feedstocks will give fuels with vastly different cloud points. Palm oil can produce a product which clouds at 50*F, whereas rape or sunflower can produce biodiesel which remains clear down to sub zero temps. When I hear about some of our members running B-50 or even B-20 in places like Colorado or other cold places, I just shake my head. Sooner or later their local station will switch suppliers in the middle of winter with sad results. Those who brew their own from virgin oil have much more control and can do their own testing, but the testing should be done on each batch because even feedstocks of the same kind of oil will have different properties when harvested from different fields and different seasons. BD brewed from WVO is a crapshoot.

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:45 am

Most retail Bio is GA is from waste chicken parts (I kid you not) and some recycled fryer oil if it's from one progressive supplier. I wonder how poultry compares to rapseed for cloud point

UFO · **Posted:** Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:52 am

dgeist wrote:

Most retail Bio is GA is from waste chicken parts (I kid you not) and some recycled fryer oil if it's from one progressive supplier. I wonder how poultry compares to rapseed for cloud point

I believe it is similar to olive oil, and gels solid in the low 50s F. Peanut oil is almost as bad, I gelled that in the low 40s F a few years ago in the late spring. Rapeseed is one of the best, widely used in Europe, and it gels below freezing.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:04 pm

dgeist wrote:

Most retail Bio is GA is from waste chicken parts (I kid you not) and some recycled fryer oil if it's from one progressive supplier. I wonder how poultry compares to rapseed for cloud point

It depends which supplier you get it from. One Georgia supplier makes actual biodiesel from Schmaltz. The other processor who is in association with Con Agra makes a synthetic diesel via a thermal depolymerization process which they call biodiesel which has become a catchall term in the fuel industry for any fuel derived from an organic source other than fossil sources. This later product is identical to D2 in it's gelling properties.

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:26 pm

nursecosmo wrote:

dgeist wrote:

Most retail Bio is GA is from waste chicken parts (I kid you not) and some recycled fryer oil if it's from one progressive supplier. I wonder how poultry compares to rapseed for cloud point

It depends which supplier you get it from. One Georgia supplier makes actual biodiesel from Schmaltz. The other processor who is in association with Con Agra makes a synthetic diesel via a thermal depolymerization process which they call biodiesel which has become a catchall term in the fuel industry for any fuel derived from an organic source other than fossil sources. This later product is identical to D2 in it's gelling properties.

I've used both refuel bio (the Schmaltz) and the commercial distributors (I didn't know they were con-agra... that's interesting). I'll have to check with my supplier to see if they've switched. I heard inlings a while back of switching distributors but didn't know if had happened.

I still prefer the smell of chicken bio :wink:

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:38 pm

Here are a couple of links to some BD property charts. There are a number of more extensive charts on Infopop but there is so much data there that it is hard to dig up what I was looking for.
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/machine/ae1305w.htm
http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodies ... l#fuelfats

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:05 pm

My supplier gets their oil from a tortilla chip factory. But most importantly ever batch is tested to ASTM specs and they post the spec sheet (which lists the cloud and gel temps) right next to the pump. So there's no question what you're getting into. So if you're buying Bio, make sure you see a copy of the specs for that batch. But even with that, for most parts of the country, just splash blend to B50 or less during the winter.

macjack · **Joined:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:43 am **Posts:** 10

Well, yesterday the temp here in Colorado was 19F in the morning and the CRD fired up and stayed running. So the magic number for this type of bio at B50 was somewhere between 13 (didn't thaw enough) and 19F.
I am part of a coop which processes bio in thousands of gallon batches and delivers it to me 300 gallons at a time. So I know the batch I have been using, and will be using, cause it is all coming from my tank next to my house.
I was experimenting a bit by running B50 so late in the season, but wouldn't have chosen B50 knowing it was going to be so darn cold for several days. If it will be below 25 for several days, I will run B10, and if I am going up into the high country where it may be well below zero, I will probably run even more petro.
I just cringe knowing everytime I purchase petro I am probably sending that money right into the pocket of middle eastern families who may or may not turn around and give that money to terrorist organizations who will try to kill people, people like US soldiers.
So I'm willing to ride my bike for a few days if I have to in order to run as much Bio as possible! The petroleum thing is so horrible and we just seem to forget how horrible it is.
-macjack

UFO · **Posted:** Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:40 pm

I've got B50 mixed up in my garage that has not frozen (unheated garage, but doesn't see the day highs or night lows). I've been pumping half tanks of B50, then filling with D2 at the filling stations. B25 has done fine through the cold snap in Denver, we saw -5F two days ago.

SLS · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:51 pm

macjack wrote:

I just cringe knowing everytime I purchase petro I am probably sending that money right into the pocket of middle eastern families who may or may not turn around and give that money to terrorist organizations who will try to kill people, people like US soldiers.
So I'm willing to ride my bike for a few days if I have to in order to run as much Bio as possible! The petroleum thing is so horrible and we just seem to forget how horrible it is.
-macjack

I'm with you on that one!!! :!:

RJM · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:02 pm

SLS wrote:

macjack wrote:

I just cringe knowing everytime I purchase petro I am probably sending that money right into the pocket of middle eastern families who may or may not turn around and give that money to terrorist organizations who will try to kill people, people like US soldiers.
So I'm willing to ride my bike for a few days if I have to in order to run as much Bio as possible! The petroleum thing is so horrible and we just seem to forget how horrible it is.
-macjack

I'm with you on that one!!! :!:

You two should start your own forum.

macjack · **Joined:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:43 am **Posts:** 10

Quote:

You two should start your own forum.

I've deleted my snarky reply, since perhaps this type of discussion is more fitting for the Alternative Fuels Discussion of LOST.
Point taken.
Though 500+ views tells me there's quite a bit of general CRD interest in the thread.
-macjack

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:45 am

You show me any OTHER alternative-fuel-capable Jeep that can run Biodiesel... And I'll show you a custom truck or one that isn't from the USA.

Biodiesel discussions are perfectly suited for the CRD forum, as we are the only lucky few that can enjoy this recyclable fuel.

Our trucks can't join AA, b/c they can't drink anything that is made from over-priced, over-hyped, over-subsidized corn likker... We get to run the alternative fuel that has ACTUAL game-changing potential. Brewed from squashed oil-bearing algae, which itself can feed and grow from the CO2 pouring out of a powerplant's chimney... Or from large ponds of SALTWATER in the desert where nothing else would grow...
Made into a liquid fuel that burns in compression engines with only the CO2 pollution potential of the plant mass that captured the CO2 in the first place, rather than CO2 that had been trapped underground for millenia...

Nothing of our fueling infrastructure need change (unlike Hydrogen that can't use a SINGLE COMPONENT) and it can be pumped through pipes, unlike Ethanol which cannot, and must be sent in railcar...

Oh yea, one last benefit: It can be EASILY made from either the algae (soon) or an existing WASTE STREAM of restaurant oil, and DOES NOT need to consume active FOOD farmland for its production. Unlike Corn Likker.

Yep, Biodiesel belongs with the CRDs, and IN said CRDs whenever possible. I only wish there was a public station nearby my current area of Lynchburg, Va. My CRD is getting tired of drinking the devil's tea.

Biodiesel

Who is online