I think the transfer case or U-joint is going or went?

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:56 am

So I wanted to run this problem by other LOST members. I think I have it narrowed down. We've had the U-joint go before, but this appears to be acting different.

So here was the scenario. Seeing as it costs so much to get rid of your own oil, I have my Jeep's oil changed at a local shop here in Madison. Got the oil changed on Friday. Drove it home no problem. The next time it was driven was Sat night by my wife who proceeded to call me a half mile down the road complaining of a high pitched grinding noise. Now we recently have had power steering issues so I went through a series of questions where it was determined it probably wasn't the PS. So then I was thinking maybe a bad brake pad where the studs on the pad might be grinding on the rotor. That didn't seem to be it. It wasn't preventing her from driving it and she wasn't going far so she drove it there and back. She noticed that after a while of driving the noise would sort of "go away".
The next chance I had to test drive it myself was Sun. evening. It somewhat was acting like brakes still, but I noticed turning to the right at roughly 25 miles an hour it would get worse. It was pretty evident though that is was coming from the front right side). Later that night I had a chance to take the wheel off and get some light on it. Unless there is something caught between the brake pad and the rotor, it appears there is not anything wrong with the pads, caliper or rotor. No grooving associated with studs grinding. It also never wobbled like a bad pad and never pulled to a particular side. So I got underneath with my lights (it was now 10pm and I was laying on my wet driveway!).
I noticed that it appeared there was oil residue coming from the plug on the transfer case. So it got me thinking, could it be bad transfer case or bad U-joint (either because of loss of oil or just because of wear and tear).
Once back together, it appeared putting in and out of 4 didn't make any difference.
So here's where I sit. When we've had u-joints go in the past, it hasn't made this noise before, it usual just doesn't engage into 4.
Any thoughts from anyone on if I'm on the right track? I'm planning on calling my local shop today to ask if they noticed anything when changing the oil or if they "topped off" the T-case oil or if that is residual leaking. It isn't leaking enough to drip in the driveway, just enough to have residue on the t-case. Also, they seemed to have been a little sloppy putting the new filter on as there was oil kind of all over, but no active leaks.
UPDATE: So I just took it for a ride to the shop so they could look at it too and guess what, no noise! So I called my wife who drove it yesterday and says "yeah, I did what you told me and put it in and out of four and then I drove down the hill by my office and I heard a POP. Then the noise was gone" So the guys at the shop tell me to come back when it is making the noise again. If it isn't popping out of four, shouldn't I still have it looked at?

THOUGHTS?

Daksport · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:40 pm

I'm shooting in the dark here a bit but I am wondering if maybe a front hub has blown up on you. Everything in your description of the issue mentions the sound coming from the front which is why I suggest this.

If the sound was coming from more underneath you, I would think more to the tranny/transfer case area.

JeepinJarhead03 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:09 am

sounds more like a CV joint? could be the hub tho

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:28 am

A bad CV would typically get worse when you put it into 4wd and applied torque to it. A bad wheel bearing could possible sound worse when turning so thats a possibility. Since she heard a 'pop' and it went away, it could be an issue in the tcase but those dont just go bad. Ever changed the tcase fluid?

Have you checked for play in the u joints on the rear drive shaft? After driving it for a good distance, feel of the u joints to see if they are really hot. If they are seized they will be pretty warm. If the noise doesnt change when you give it more gas or let off the gas it may not be u joints.

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:46 am

Thanks for the thoughts. I've had to replace CV joints before and maybe I've not had enough experience with them, but they wouldn't just "go away" would they (as in the sound)? Same with the Hub, I've never had a hub go, but that would get progressively worse and heat up quite a bit wouldn't it?

I'd have to go back through my records to see if at the "typical" maintenance times if the t-case fluid has been replaced. We've owned it since 15k mi and it now has over 120k mi on it, I recall at least at one normal interval it being replaced, I know the shop we used to use before we relocated to Madison a couple years ago would always check all fluids including t-case. As it turns out when I was talking to the shop owner he said they did check it and that's why there was likely oil residue on the t-case.

When I get a chance I'll have to drive it a while and then check the drive shaft and u-joints for looseness and heat. I didn't think of that before, so I'm glad you mentioned that.

When I was spinning the rotor checking it, it didn't spin as free as it should have if it was in 2 wheel drive. This is another part of the scenario as to why I though it was the u-joint, I guess though if the hub or bearings went it would also freeze up that wheel some. I'll have to do more investigation when I get a chance.

Budke · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:52 am

Take out the front DS and see if that solves anything

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:04 pm

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I haven't driven it in a few days and it has been a busy weekend so I haven't had time to DO any of the checking I had hoped to yet. However, we did drive it this afternoon for a short trip to the grocery store and the worst high pitch grinding is still gone, however, there is starting to be a slight rubbing noise that is re-developing. I'm driving a significant distance tomorrow for work with it so either I'll get stranded, it will continue to get worse, or I'll know more what is going on (since my wife usually drives this vehicle).

The odd thing about the noise is now it seems to be coming from a vantriliquist, not always sure WHERE it is coming from. It is starting to sound brake like again as well.

Keep the ideas coming!

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:09 am

So I just got done with my 2 hour drive in to my headquarters office and the noise is really back. It is certainly seeming possible now that it could be the Hub as mentioned by a couple of you. It definitely sounds like metal on metal rubbing. Which if it isn't hub, leads me back to brake, but I had checked those and they seemed fine. So we'll see, as long as it is still making the noise and my wheel hasn't fallen off by the time I get home tonight, I will be taking it back into the shop tomorrow morning to have them look at it. I just don't have time these days and with my 16 month old son's minor surgery coming up on wednesday, I've got more important things to worry about right now myself.

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:09 pm

Okay, so I decided to drop it off at the dealership that I bought it at in Kaukauna since the noise got worse on the way here this morning. I got it an barely noticed it again. Then it started ticking and I started feeling some wheel vibration through the steering wheel. So now I'm thinking it back to Hub, brake, etc. However it never got worse again until I got off the off ramp to the dealership, then of course it made a loud brake like noise then stopped just before I did at the stop sign.

So it is now getting a 3rd set of eyes (or really second since my local shop wouldn't look at it if it wasn't making the noise).

So now I'm thinking it is brake again, even though nothing appeared out of the ordinary when I had the wheel off.

So I guess I will hopefully know what the problem is by the end of the day, hopefully in time to have it fixed and me leaving to head back home the 2 hour drive.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:22 pm

Hope they find out what it is. Did you say you have to pay to trun in your old oil? Here, all the auto part shops take it for free. They burn it in the back in a thing called a smart ash.

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:46 pm

Yeah, me too.

I'll have to try the auto parts stores, but here has been my experience:
Every repair shop I've been (here in Madison as well as almost every place in NE WI) will charge you a disposal fee for any auto fluid you bring in. In fact I drained the gas tank (after burning off most of the tank driving it) on my 61 Ford to replace the fuel tank sending unit and nobody even wanted the gas I took out, so I had to filter what I could reuse and I tried to evaporate the rest. At the time I did this I asked about all other fluids I could think of and they said no shop in Madison would take it.
When I lived in MN it was a different story, I could find many places to take all sorts of stuff. In fact I knew people at tire stores that would buy my old tires from me to use for burnouts at the drag strip or just for their summer beaters or whatever.

Even Wal Mart is now burning waste oil for heat in many of their stores, I didn't try taking it there, but no other repair shop would take it. Employees can bring in their own though. I used to have a guy that worked at a Chevy dealership and he would take all the stuff we worked on in to his shop to dispose of it, but even he said they charge customers for that. If fact if you look closely at some places invoices, you will see an EPA or Environmental charge, disposal fee (everyone names or covers it differently), some mark up their prices a slight percentage to cover it. That is a fee they charge every customer to dispose of fluids they have to pay for as a dealership/ shop themselves to get rid of. If they can't burn it as you mention. If there are people that work in these places that don't do this, you can feel free to set me straight, but I haven't seen a place yet that hasn't done this in some way. Maybe it is something to do with laws in WI, but I haven't researched it that far.

I did find a city site that you can dispose of oil, but they only take it during the summer, not the winter. It is just a bin in a parking lot and they only service it during the summer months. Go figure.

Maybe it is different in CO. baesd on laws, rules, or regulations. Or maybe I just went to a few cranky shop owners and they just told me they didn't take it because they don't like dealing with people that do their own work. But I'm still looking for someplace to take mine. I'm going to have to try the auto parts stores though, that's a great idea.

candpliberty · **Posted:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:08 pm

In Vegas, you put it out with your recycle and they take it away.

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:25 pm

So the dealership that I went to (that I used to use) is telling me that it is indeed the front drive shaft. They are also saying it is going to cost me $750 dollars to fix and they won't be able to tackle it til Wed. Since that would leave me Vehicle-less two hours away from home, I decided to tell them to keep the front drive shaft off and that I'd have it fixed in Madison where I don't need a vehicle the rest of the week.

I then called my shop in Madison (the one that wouldn't look at it unless it was making noise) and they proceed to tell me they should be able to replace just the u-joints if the shaft itself isn't damaged. Which my thought was similar. He gave me a rough price that was only about $160 dollars to rebuild it with new u-joints if that was all that was wrong.

I like the lower price and I was surprised by the larger price for the whole shaft, however, Here is my further question to all you out there that know way more about the 4x4 parts than I do:
Does taking out the drive shaft REALLY solve the problem? I mean the noise seems to go in and out of severity and it had gone away once before with the driveshaft IN, so couldn't it still be possible that something is wrong in the t-case or the front diff and the 4x4 just hasn't disengange? With the driveshaft out couldn't it only partially "fix" the problem? I mean with no front driveshaft the "middle man" if you will, just isn't there to connect all the dots thus negating the other possible problems, doesn't it?

Still confused and now with a 2x4 Jeep,
jmichaelsjeep

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:27 pm

candpliberty wrote:

In Vegas, you put it out with your recycle and they take it away.

Wow! The last city I lived in would take pretty much anything else that you put on the curb, refrigerators, stoves, furniture, whatever, but I guess I haven't lived enough places, oil is new one to me!

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:12 am

So my woes keep getting worse. :furious:

I drove the Jeep the two hours back home tonight and the front driveshaft may in deed need to be replaced (which after actually getting to see it finally is doubtful), however, about half way home I rolled through a town that I had to slow down for. I did the usual slow down from 60-30mph but then the light in this little town changed and I needed to slow down. I let the engine and transmission do it so hopefully by the time I got there, it would be green again. When I got to 15-20 mph it happened, the noise is back. Eureka, sort of! It was downshifting when the horrendous grinding noise started and it started clicking!

So I immediately called my mechanic friend and talked through it. Here is what we now think.

There is likely a "sprag (sp?) clutch that is likely going bad for a gear or many gears but it makes sense that it would do this at lower speeds thus when and where I'd hear it most. Also, it is free in one direction and locks in the other, thus potentially explaining the POP and maybe the "ticking" I was hearing. I thought I was hearing it from the front right, but the "vantriliquism" that was happening was because it was happening right under my shifter but I was thinking it was farther away.

We both thought it weird that after we both looked at the removed driveshaft tonight and it seemed like one end MIGHT click, the other end seemed just fine.

Anyone experience this before? I'm having my mechanic take the tranny pan off to check for metal shavings to verify our thoughts, but it both seemed odd to us that the front drive shaft would produce a grinding, especially one that was closer in line with a brake, hub, t-case or related symptoms.

In my estimation, it could be very likely that other things need to be replaced, but with the front drive shaft out and our recent discovery, it is also pretty clear there is something pretty major going on.

I know it isn't over yet, but this sounds like it could get expensive! Anyone want to by a 2003 Liberty Limited with a bad tranny? :-)r

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:13 pm

Sure sounds like this is getting more complicated than it should.

Have you crawled under there and checked the front drive shaft? Look at BOTH boots on the drive shaft. There is one where it comes out of the transfer case(This one typically goes bad) and one close to the input on the front diff. Check for any up and down or side to side play in the shaft. Rotational play is normal.

No clue what a sprag is but it sure sounds like a bad CV(front drive shaft) if its clicking/grinding.

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:58 pm

Jeepjeepster,
Yeah, that is what the dealership said and thought, so they removed the front driveshaft. At the time of the most recent noise, it was and is still removed and was making the horrendous grinding/ ticking noises with it removed. I had them leave it in the back of the liberty so I could take it back to my local shop in Madison. We looked at the front driveshaft joints on both ends (while it is removed) and on the one end there could be a little ticking coming from it, but after moving both joints around while removed, it seems like there is no way it could make a grinding noise since the joints attached to either end of the shaft are almost like ball joints, and not a typical U-joint type connection. I've never done any work with CV joints, do you have a picture of what they look like? ( I know that seems like a dumb question, but I want to be on the same page as you and what you're thinking).

The noises were definitely coming from right under the shifter and were occurring when the tranny downshifted and when I kicked it down when I passed a semi. It continued to make that noise for roughly 30-40 miles before it dissipated. All while the front drive shaft was removed. Are there parts still in there that could still be making those noises with the driveshaft out?

Also, as far as I understand, the "sprag" clutch is a mechanism that (as I understand) helps to switch the gears or mechanisms within some auto transmissions. It moves freely in one direction and locks in the other. I would imagine similar to how the lock on an extension ladder works only mechanized to move other parts. At least this is how my mechanic friend explained it to me.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:44 pm

jmichaelsjeep wrote:

Jeepjeepster,
Yeah, that is what the dealership said and thought, so they removed the front driveshaft. At the time of the most recent noise, it was and is still removed and was making the horrendous grinding/ ticking noises with it removed. I had them leave it in the back of the liberty so I could take it back to my local shop in Madison. We looked at the front driveshaft joints on both ends (while it is removed) and on the one end there could be a little ticking coming from it, but after moving both joints around while removed, it seems like there is no way it could make a grinding noise since the joints attached to either end of the shaft are almost like ball joints, and not a typical U-joint type connection. I've never done any work with CV joints, do you have a picture of what they look like? ( I know that seems like a dumb question, but I want to be on the same page as you and what you're thinking).

The noises were definitely coming from right under the shifter and were occurring when the tranny downshifted and when I kicked it down when I passed a semi. It continued to make that noise for roughly 30-40 miles before it dissipated. All while the front drive shaft was removed. Are there parts still in there that could still be making those noises with the driveshaft out?

Also, as far as I understand, the "sprag" clutch is a mechanism that (as I understand) helps to switch the gears or mechanisms within some auto transmissions. It moves freely in one direction and locks in the other. I would imagine similar to how the lock on an extension ladder works only mechanized to move other parts. At least this is how my mechanic friend explained it to me.

Gotcha, missed the part where the front DS was removed. Thought they just told you it was bad. Ive never heard of said sprag clutch going bad in a kj tranny but I sppse anything is possible. Have you checked the ujoints on the rear driveshaft? Or do you think the dealer did that?

This is what the inside of a typical CV joint looks like, although this is not the cv joint in the drive shaft, its similar.

http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38268

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:36 pm

Guess no one in your area has ever heard of a wireless chassis ear,takes a few minutes to set up and then off on a test drive to pin point the noise.Usually takes less the 30mins to find the problem.

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:25 pm

Jeepjeepster, Thanks for the link to the CV discussion. It is helpful.

tjkj, I guess not. I think the difficult thing with any of testing (even testing by ear) is it has to be making the noise when you drive it. The difficult thing has been to get it someplace when it is making the noise. It hadn't been consistent. I suppose those are sensitive enough to pick it up even when it is in the "dorment" stage.

I think the transfer case or U-joint is going or went?

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