NO LONGER IN THE CRD CLUB Good Luck

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:34 pm

spottyrecordkj wrote:

Well, maybe I am used to Toyota gassers, and maybe it is my first diesel. However this isn't a problem I have heard of with the TDI so maybe it is just JEEP! The Liberty is my first JEEP and my fiance wants to get rid of it and never get another american vehicle! I like my liberty and just wish that they would fix it's quirks! If it were as some people want to make it seem it would just shift in or out of lock-up and that is it. Fact is that it is not the case. It goes crazy as it is having a seizure and is very annoying and makes my family members very uncomfortable thinking that it is going to kill over! I traded a 2006 Toyota Camry in for my CRD. The Camry only had 3000 miles on it, but it hadn't seen the shop except for the 1st oil change! Within the 1st week my CRD saw the shop! It also seems to like the guys at the shop. I thought that diesels were male mine is a female as it likes to go flirt with the repair guys at the shop! sorry for the humor just upsets me that I have a brand new $26,000 vehicle and it goes to the shop more than a 6 year old Cavalier with over 100,000 miles on it! I am one of the people that spoke bad about cavaliers and said that they suck, well no worse than my Jeep. In fact it seems better reliability speaking!

Sorry for your problems, but as I said most are likely due to inexperience with autos and diesels in particular. Having owned MB & VW TDI's diesels, I know for a fact that you can get a Jetta 4 spd auto to "hunt for a gear" under the right conditions. The TDI would do the same at about 40 to 48 mph with cruise control on, and that's not an OD tranny with an off switch. But heck how often do you use CC at that speed, almost never. I was just experimenting to see how low it would stay in CC and it would work all the way down to 25 mph.

Just had the Maggie out this morning and set CC at the lock speed and first small hill (almost not even a hill) it did the kick down and then as speed came up the TQ locked up then unlocked before the top of the hill. This is a tranny almost identical to a 99 through 03 VW TDI tranny, 4 spd with TQ lock up, it is behind a DOHC 24V engine with 6500 rpm red line vs a 45 red line in the CRD or TDI. A friend of mine is always complaining about his Toyota PU doing the same thing on about any hill in our area and is wanting a CRD because our diesel gets the same mpg in town as his PU does on the highway and doesn't downshift for every hill it comes to like his Toyota. Our CRD impresses him greatly on one hill that when CC set to 75 mph does not down shift at all and the rpm's stay the same as does the speed, when his Toyota PU will drop down two gears, speed up then shift up, then slow and drop down a gear several times before reaching the top of the hill. He refuses to take it out of OD at slow speed in the hills as it gets hard on the mpg's he says, I told him he needed to find another vehicle designed to drive like he drives. Buy electric I told him, thought he was going to pop a vein in his forehead.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:47 pm

Diesel is the only combustion engine I've found with anything close to the low end torque of an electric motor.

DC traction motor in my electric pickup is rated 30 HP at 4000 rpm, but stall hP and torque can be 3 to 4 times that. I can put it in 2nd gear at a dead stop, let out the clutch, stomp the pedal, and dig 6 foot long ruts in our driveway as that motor grunts and trys to get 4000 lbs of truck and batteries moving.

Reggie · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:38 pm

[Sorry for your problems, but as I said most are likely due to inexperience with autos and diesels in particular. Having owned MB & VW TDI's diesels, I know for a fact that you can get a Jetta 4 spd auto to "hunt for a gear" under the right conditions. The TDI would do the same at about 40 to 48 mph with cruise control on, and that's not an OD tranny with an off switch. But heck how often do you use CC at that speed, almost never. I was just experimenting to see how low it would stay in CC and it would work all the way down to 25 mph.[/quote]

Oldnavy,

This is NOT a problem with inexperience with automatic trannys. You should feel great that you do not have this problem. For those of us that suffer through this obvious quality/design/application problem, it feels like a bucking bronco when it acts up. It happened to me on the way home, AGAIN. I've got a lot of experience with modern automatics in a variety of cars and this one is a peice of crap! It's just another case of failed DC quality like crappy ball joints. It's too bad because other than that its a nice ride.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:26 pm

Reggie wrote:

Oldnavy,

This is NOT a problem with inexperience with automatic trannys. You should feel great that you do not have this problem. For those of us that suffer through this obvious quality/design/application problem, it feels like a bucking bronco when it acts up. It happened to me on the way home, AGAIN. I've got a lot of experience with modern automatics in a variety of cars and this one is a peice of crap! It's just another case of failed DC quality like crappy ball joints. It's too bad because other than that its a nice ride.

What ever you say, I'm sure from the way you describe your problem you have years of experience of driving automatic transmissions.

PS: You need some spelling practice.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I am one of the people that spoke bad about cavaliers and said that they suck, well no worse than my Jeep. In fact it seems better reliability speaking!

Based on your screen name and your experience with your CRD, it doesn't look like your going to find an answer on this site. Shifting issues are not something anyone here is likely to be able to help you with. Perhaps you should take your finance's advice. Seriously. If the dealer can't fix it, why put up with it? I had some really bad experiences with a GM 4X4 many years ago. When it got to the point where I didn't want to deal with it anymore, I sold it. Never bought another GM. I'm sure anyone here could fill in with a similar story with any brand out there. You seem to like your Toyota's, why not look one of their pickups or SUV's? Who knows, Toyota may even bring in a diesel in a few years.

Reggie · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:50 pm

oldnavy wrote:

Reggie wrote:

Oldnavy,

This is NOT a problem with inexperience with automatic trannys. You should feel great that you do not have this problem. For those of us that suffer through this obvious quality/design/application problem, it feels like a bucking bronco when it acts up. It happened to me on the way home, AGAIN. I've got a lot of experience with modern automatics in a variety of cars and this one is a peice of crap! It's just another case of failed DC quality like crappy ball joints. It's too bad because other than that its a nice ride.

What ever you say, I'm sure from the way you describe your problem you have years of experience of driving automatic transmissions.

PS: You need some spelling practice.

Yeah,

My spelling went to heck when I started using MS Word. Spell chaeck is a quick way to ruin ones spelling skills. I also got some very bad personal news this evening so I'm not in the best of moods. As for experience with autonatics, we'll skip the older three speed units and the powerglide, but I would think that having 11 automatic equiped vehicles in the last 20 years from several different makes would indicate I have some exeperience. By the way, three of them were VW's and one of those was a TDI. I also had an automatic in a BMW 524 TD. I'm not new to diesels nor automatics and I do a fair amount of wrenching on the automobiles having rebuilt several engines, axels, suspensions, and almost anything else that might be attached to a car. This is not an imaginary problem. This is not a normal transmission "hunting" problem. It's kinda like the torque converter "hammering" at a frequency of a little more than once per second after spirited excelleration.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:52 am

Well, I can vouch that it's not an imaginary problem. I've had mine do it a few times as well, though not as bad as some cases described here. Both on mine and my friend's in Texas, it has occurred most often when having to accelerate quickly to pass someone, and then letting off the throttle fairly quickly to get back down to a legal speed. Hasn't occurred with WOT acceleration or normal driving acceleration. It also occurred 3 or 4 times on the trip to TX, using cruise control, anywhere from 65 to 75 mph, when topping a steep grade and the cruise contol backed off the throttle to maintain speed. In all instances a duration of 5 to 10 seconds, making the vehicle surge and jerk, just like letting out the clutch too quickly on a manual tranny.

Frequency of occurrence seems to have a lot to do with driving conditions and styles.

It's not that the tranny is a piece of crap, it's that new fangled electronically modulated converter clutch (EMCC) IMHO. DC just started using them with this tranny for the '05 model year. I had an '04 Dakota V8 with the same 545 RFE tranny, with the old style lockup torque converter. Smooth as a baby's rear, you had to watch the tach to tell when it slipped in and out of lockup. It was either full lockup, or none at all. I put 10K miles on it before trading it for the CRD, and was pleased as punch with the tranny, added to my comfort level that the CRD had the same tranny.

However, for '05, in both the CRD and Dakota, DC added the EMCC to this same tranny. EMCC can do partial lockup, and under certain conditions can also "modulate" the converter clutch, and from my experience, that could also be interpreted as "pulse". Idea was by letting the computer have more control and spending more time in lockup, partial or otherwise, equals better fuel economy.

In short, IMHO, the 545 RFE tranny by itself is an excellent piece of work, it's the new fangled EMCC that is giving us problems. Possible reasons -

1 - First model year for this beast, and they haven't got the software and/or hardware up to snuff yet.

2 - The EMCC may work fine with gas engines (I"d recommend checking the Dakota forums to see if they're having the same problems), but is a poor matchup with the diesel's impressive low end torque.

3 - Same problem as some Dodge Cummins automatic tranny owners have reported, poor routing of the wiring allowing alternator noise to interfere with operation of the converter clutch. For this, there's an aftermarket noise filter kit that installs in the signal wire from the accelerator position sensor to the tranny control module, or in some cases simply rerouting and shielding the wires has worked.

Guest · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:38 am

oldnavy wrote:

Reggie wrote:

Oldnavy,

This is NOT a problem with inexperience with automatic trannys. You should feel great that you do not have this problem. For those of us that suffer through this obvious quality/design/application problem, it feels like a bucking bronco when it acts up. It happened to me on the way home, AGAIN. I've got a lot of experience with modern automatics in a variety of cars and this one is a peice of crap! It's just another case of failed DC quality like crappy ball joints. It's too bad because other than that its a nice ride.

What ever you say, I'm sure from the way you describe your problem you have years of experience of driving automatic transmissions.

PS: You need some spelling practice.

I will tell you that when mine does the quick shifting, it is every bit of 1800rpm to 4000rpm and back to 1800rpm within 2 seconds max time, continuing this cycle indefinitely or until cruise is disengaged. It is VERY, VERY, abnormal. During the cycle the turbo is ready to explode.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:51 am

It's like retmil46 said...this problem is NOT because of lack of quality or a junky transmission. The 545RFE is one of the best auto. trannys Chrysler has ever had in their company's history. I had this tranny in my 2004 Dodge Ram and he's right...you had to TRY to notice when the torque convertor locked and unlocked. It's a strong transmission, and it's a very good transmission. The problem with the Jeep CRD "shuttering" is a software issue. It can and will be fixed easily and pretty soon I would say.

If your internet browser starts going haywire, do you throw away the entire computer?? Or do you just install a new internet browser?

That's what's going on here. The Jeep CRD has an awesome transmission (as automatics go). It just needs new software loaded to operate it better. Since the CRD has only been out for 1.5 model years...I'll give them a break and let them work on that.

Guest · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:01 am

Agreed. I am NOT about to take a new vehicle into a dealer and let them prod around looking for a "ghost" of a problem. Let the engineers back at the corporate office have a year or two for software updates to get designed. I just never use overdrive until 57mph or higher.

RTStabler51 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:26 am

I still don't understand why you guys have a problem reaching over and turning o/d 'off'

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

The Jeep CRD has an awesome transmission (as automatics go). It just needs new software loaded to operate it better. Since the CRD has only been out for 1.5 model years...I'll give them a break and let them work on that.

I would agree. I also own an 02 V6 Liberty with the same transmission (45RFE) sans one less final overdrive activated, but with the EMCC according to the FSM. It never had the shudder my CRD had. They did a TSB that reduced that shudder on full acceleration then cruising when I took my CRD in for the EGR, but it has a very, very slight shudder every once in a while, but nothing like the violent jerking that it used to do. However, after looking at the TSB they did, it was more of computer reinitialization, with the SKIM system causing a problem in the TCM module. No idea why.
My CRD has never had any 1800-4000 shifting issues with CC, even when driving all over the Blue Ridge Parkway on some long steep uphill grades at speeds from 45 to 70 mph. Early March 2005 build.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:29 am

Because I don't like to hear my diesel engine screaming at nearly 3K RPM non-stop while traveling down the highway.

Guest · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:37 am

RTStabler51 wrote:

I still don't understand why you guys have a problem reaching over and turning o/d 'off'

Don't need to at 57mph or higher.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:11 pm

I started a little experiment yesterday. First half of my drive to work is 45 mph, with 4 stop signs and lights, and often a lot of stopping and starting due to traffic making left hand turns. Second half is on country roads 55 mph limit with only 2 stop signs. Grand total 20 miles one way. I drove the first half with OD locked out, and when I hit the 55 mph part enabled OD before accelerating up to 60. When I pushed it up to 50 in the slow section, tach was reading 2200 rpm, where it would be cruising at 75 mph or better in OD on the interstate. If it can cruise at that engine speed for hours on the interstate, I can't see where it would hurt it for 15 minutes.

Another advantage - instead of cursing slower drivers ahead of me in the slow section for keeping me below 50 and out of lockup, it now goes into lockup at 38 mph. We'll see what happens with fuel economy using OD off in the slow section.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:49 pm

retmil46 wrote:

I started a little experiment yesterday. First half of my drive to work is 45 mph, with 4 stop signs and lights, and often a lot of stopping and starting due to traffic making left hand turns. Second half is on country roads 55 mph limit with only 2 stop signs. Grand total 20 miles one way. I drove the first half with OD locked out, and when I hit the 55 mph part enabled OD before accelerating up to 60. When I pushed it up to 50 in the slow section, tach was reading 2200 rpm, where it would be cruising at 75 mph or better in OD on the interstate. If it can cruise at that engine speed for hours on the interstate, I can't see where it would hurt it for 15 minutes.

Another advantage - instead of cursing slower drivers ahead of me in the slow section for keeping me below 50 and out of lockup, it now goes into lockup at 38 mph. We'll see what happens with fuel economy using OD off in the slow section.

Sounds like the correct way to use the CC & OD to me Mitch, the only thing is why are you using CC in the stop & go sections? If not, then I am wondering why you have the lock up problem even with OD on when we don't. I would not use the OD in the 45 mph section with all the stop and go to save throttle usage to get to speed and to also to help in the slow down when brake might not be needed when not in OD, but would in OD setting.

I was waiting for the wife to get settled in with the CRD and for the CRD to get some miles on it then have her do a tank of no OD and then a tank of OD and compare mpg's, but I guess it is time to start this test at next fill. As for 22,000 rpm's hurting this engine that kind of a laugh to me after so many years behind the wheel of SOHC small diesels with thousands upon thousands of mile driven in the 2500 to 3500 rpm. MY guess is you from your description will not have much variation in mpg's, but the way ours is driven the mpg's will go down.

I hate to think of the number of miles I have driven a 240D MB non turbo, SOHC, 4 cyl sedan that tipped the scale about 3800 lbs, at 3800 to 4200 rpm mile after mile on trips. The MB is 24 years old now and still going strong and has never had the head off. I think you still have the BIG OTR rig engines you work with too much in your mind there sometimes Mitch. What you want to bet those guys in Germany are driving CRD's regularly on the Autobahn in 3000 to 3500 rpm's on a very regular basis.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:43 am

Only time I've used cruise control was on the trip to Texas. Only time I've ever used it on any of my vehicles is on long interstate trips, 2 or more hours. Otherwise those fancy buttons on the steering wheel just gather dust. It's kinda boring when all you have to do is sit there and hold the steering wheel, I enjoy actually operating the vehicle too much to just leave part of it to a bloody computer.

But that has been one of the few instances when I experienced tranny shudder. 65 to 75 mph on the interstate, in OD, cruise control engaged. Worst instance was when I topped a steep grade, with a narrow summit, and an equally steep down grade on the other side. It had to make a quick transition from pulling up the grade (heavy throttle) to holding back speed on the downgrade (little or no throttle). Got about 5 seconds worth of buck and jerk on that one.

For me, it seems to take just the right combination of conditions for it to occur, very seldom and intermittent. I can go for weeks with it behaving perfectly, and then suddenly out of the blue it's acting like one of my grandfather's mules.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:02 am

retmil46 wrote:

Only time I've used cruise control was on the trip to Texas. Only time I've ever used it on any of my vehicles is on long interstate trips, 2 or more hours. Otherwise those fancy buttons on the steering wheel just gather dust. It's kinda boring when all you have to do is sit there and hold the steering wheel, I enjoy actually operating the vehicle too much to just leave part of it to a bloody computer.

But that has been one of the few instances when I experienced tranny shudder. 65 to 75 mph on the interstate, in OD, cruise control engaged. Worst instance was when I topped a steep grade, with a narrow summit, and an equally steep down grade on the other side. It had to make a quick transition from pulling up the grade (heavy throttle) to holding back speed on the downgrade (little or no throttle). Got about 5 seconds worth of buck and jerk on that one.

For me, it seems to take just the right combination of conditions for it to occur, very seldom and intermittent. I can go for weeks with it behaving perfectly, and then suddenly out of the blue it's acting like one of my grandfather's mules.

I didn't really think you were using the CC in slow stop & go traffic. :wink:

I have tried on two occasions to try and get ours to do the dance, with no success. However the other day with a friend along I topped a steep hill (been over it many times at 73 mph) at 70 mph and I barely felt a slight shutter for about 2 seconds if that long. My friend didn't even notice the event. I am not sure if this is a slight software problem or the possibility of wrong tranny for the CRD. I'm thinking they should have used the 5 spd MB tranny used in the LX series cars, that's the same transmission used in the E-320 CDI from MB currently.

KJbob · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:34 am

oldnavy wrote:

As for 22,000 rpm's hurting this engine that kind of a laugh to me after so many years behind the wheel of SOHC small diesels with thousands upon thousands of mile driven in the 2500 to 3500 rpm.

Coming from a Jetta TDI, cruising at 2500 rpm or higher for hours was no big deal. Now I sorta get concerned when my Liberty is cruising between 60 and 65 mph and my tach is reading under 2000 rpm. It's good for mileage though.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:37 am

Well at 65 (the speed limit here in KY) I'm turning about 3 grand on the tach with OD turned off. Redline is at 4 grand. So I'd be running the engine at 75% throttle on the highway with OD turned off. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

How many people would run their gas engines at 4,500 RPM all day long and think nothing of it?

Sure you probably could turn OD off and drive it like that. And your engine might go thousands of miles that way. But just think of how many MORE thousands it would have gone if you kept the RPMs down.

NO LONGER IN THE CRD CLUB Good Luck

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