Queston about my 61 Ford?

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:32 pm

So, I have a question that I wasn't sure where else to put it, since it relates to my non-JEEP vehicle. I figured here was a good place for the question.

I bought a gasket kit a while back and intended on replacing virtually all the gaskets myself. However, I started to take the oil pan off and realized very quickly I have a pump in the pan that is getting in the way of the pan removal. I thought at first maybe my cross member was removable so I could support my engine from above and drop the member, but that isn't going to work. So do I
A: Try and jack the engine up about an 1-1.5 inches to get the pan to clear the pump and the cross member or do I
B: Tighten the pan back up, wait til I finish installing the manifold gaskets and the rebuilt carb and put it all back together and drive it to a shop and have them pull the engine to replace the gaskets.

I really wanted to do this myself, but I'm going to need some help of various forms to get this done.

I would have posted this on the Ford Forum I'm on, but it doesn't seem people are on there as much nor are they nearly as helpful as all my fellow JEEPers.

Thanks for any and all help!

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:55 pm

I say try option A.

There's a ton of stuff you can do to yer str8 6.I built my Ford 300(in my ole 85) with Offenhauser intake,holley 4,and hedders.Talk about bad to the bone.

Now the other option you were contemplating,a 390(engine in my 56 ford)is a brute force torque monster that will light up your tires and suck down some petrol.8MPG :shock:

Stick with the str8 6 and fix that baby up.That engine will last forever,and so easy to work on.

Daksport · **Posted:** Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:27 pm

I agree with option A.

If you take it to someone else, that is exactly what they will do to re&re the oil pan.

jeepdaddy · **Posted:** Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:12 pm

i just replace the oil pan on the 1995 f350 2wd shop truck at work ,,, i was told it's impossible without removing the engine. well don't believe them.... i unbolted the engine mounts and jacked it up 3+ inches, unbolted the pan, then unbolted the oil pump and slid it out :mrgreen:

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:24 pm

Okay, so we all agree option A. Now here's for my next question.

Since I already have the pan completely unbolted, where is the safest place to jack it up from? Some directions I've found at various places online say to put a block of wood on the edge of the oil pan where it bolts to the block and jack it up from there.
1. is that safe?
2. Will that still damage the edge of the oil pan creating a bad fit with the new gaskets?
3. Will there be other things that will have to be removed/ disconnected to make sure when I jack it up I don't mangle something else? So far I don't see anything else in the way.
4. Is there a better/ safer/ more effective way?

KJ 119: Yeah, I think I've decided that in order to not have to replace every other drivetrain piece for the time being, I'm going to try and get as much out of this 223 as I can! I'm starting with a rebuilt kit for my carb including a larger main jet for the carb. I've also done a few other minor things. My goal is to then put an exhaust on that bolts to the existing manifold that widens to like 3" the rest of the way back. Open air flow in AND then out!

The air flow IN I found an adapter that I can convert the 1 barrel carb to a 2 if I want. I've also found an Offenhauser intake that converts it to a 3 single barrel set up. (which is what you did right?) I like that idea, but that will be around at least a 5-600 dollar set up, which I don't have right now. Then my "dream" set-up staying with this engine, would be to convert each of those 3 single barrels to double barrels, meaning essentially I'd have 1 barrel for each cylinder. I know it doesn't work exactly that way, but each of the single barrel intake holes would have an adapter to a 2 barrel. THAT should open up the air/fuel flow (and decrease the mileage)! Right now surprisingly I get around 20-22mpg with this car. If I do all this stuff, I can bet I'll see a drop! Oh well, it's my toy...

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:12 am

If you're looking to remove the pan why would they suggest you to lift it by the pan? :dizzy:

Make sure your mounts are loose,and improvise.Mabe a block of wood on exhaust manifold?
MABE,if raises easily,just mabe you can use a block of wood on your crank pulley.This is not that heavy of a motor.

My setup was a true 4 barrel 390 holley.

Though the tripple single is a dream setup,you're just inviting three times the carb probs.
Look for a Clifford intake which combined with a 390 Holley(and headers of course),will probably almost double your HP.

tommudd · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:31 am

Engine hoist would be best or a chain hoist to pull the engine up. It can be done
As far as intake with out doing other things the 3-2s would be a waste, too much gas for what the engine wants or needs to use.
Keep it simple the smaller 4 barrels work great.
3 inch exhaust? Maybe tail pipe but other wise you'll lose low end power right where you need it. Larger diameter pipe is only good for very high horsepower engines and diesels :wink:

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:44 am

Thanks guys!

KJ 119, The Lifting by the pan is only temporary, I left out a couple steps to shorten the post. You lift it by the pan edge (with a block of wood to protect the pan) where it mounts to the block, (after removing the mount bolts) lift it, put blocks of wood between the mount and the cross-memeber then set it back down. Allowing you to remove the pan. At least that is the "directions" I've found online from others. Ideally I'd like to do what Tom suggested, I'll have to see what I can do.

I've been looking all over and I've not seen those Clifford products before. Those are SWEET! they even have headers to go with it, if you want them! Nice!

Tommudd, yeah, that is one of the reasons I have it as a Dream setup

I don't think I'd ever do the 3-2's, but if I were going to, it would have to come with all sorts of other Modifications so it could use all that air and fuel! But I didn't even know a single four was possible, up until looking at that clifford site, I didn't know I could even do a 4 on there, that makes me very happy! :pepper:

Just a question for you Tom, would I still lose low end with the shorty headers and the exhaust back? I don't know what the outlet is on the shorty headers from Clifford, but they are likely 2-1/2 inches. I always thought that opening up airflow in and out was the best combination?

I'm still just not sure if I want a bigger carb still in the middle or the 3 single setup, the reason being is with the air/fuel coming in mid intake and mid engine I already get a little extra fouling of the plugs at the center two cylinders due to too rich of a mixture at times, so with a 2 or 4 barrel in place of the single, I would expect that to get worse. With the three single, it would spread out the air/ fuel coming in to be spread out over all 6 cylinders a little better so the whole engine would be performing better, or that is what I understand anyway.

I tell you though that intake header setup from Clifford just moved up towards the top of my WISH list! Now I'd just have to figure out if I have the clearance under the hood :lol:

Oh and the $

tommudd · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:58 pm

With the Clifford intake and headers the Holley will work great. The intake flows way better than the stock one. Don't think you will have the problems with fouling plugs in the center. As far as exhaust if the headers come down into one 2.25 to 2.5 will run good now if they still have the split exhaust then run 2 inch and it will be really good. Used to have a buddy with a 78 3/4 ton 4X4 Ford with the 300 six I did a lot of tuning / changes on it. It would surprise a lot of people when he opened the hood.
And then go back to the 53 Chevys now you could really make them wild with a split manifold, 3-2s Oh for the good old days :lol:

durangotang · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:11 pm

Just my $.02 on lifting a rig by the oil pan. I used to have to do it on my Charger a lot when I would ruin motor mounts (492 stroker with a lumpy cam combined with a reinforced frame will do that)

You can gain a little peace of mind if you make a little frame out of 2x4's (or whatever fits) that matches the shape of the lip around the oil pan. Even if it's just a "U" shape that cover half of the pan, it'll help distribute the load and nothing will bend. The one I used to use was 2x4's in a U shape with a 4x4 going across the U that the jack pushed on.... hope that makes sense...

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:37 pm

jmichaelsjeep wrote:

I'm still just not sure if I want a bigger carb still in the middle or the 3 single setup

Tom's speaking from experience.You either have carb tuning in your blood or you don't.
If you do,go for it.If you're a novice tuner,go with the Holley 4. :wink:

Different situations may require on the fly tuning.Altitude for instance.

jmichaelsjeep wrote:

I tell you though that intake header setup from Clifford just moved up towards the top of my WISH list! Now I'd just have to figure out if I have the clearance under the hood :lol:

Oh and the $

There goes your Frankinlift :banghead:

tommudd wrote:

Used to have a buddy with a 78 3/4 ton 4X4 Ford with the 300 six I did a lot of tuning / changes on it. It would surprise a lot of people when he opened the hood.

Hey Tomm,wasn't it nice to be able to sit in the engine bay and work on an engine.
I miss my 300.Might have to go to the camp and resurect the ole 85.Kept it to turn it into a tractor,or 3rd world style water pump,or something cool.

durangotang wrote:

I used to have to do it on my Charger a lot when I would ruin motor mounts (492 stroker with a lumpy cam combined with a reinforced frame will do that)

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:07 pm

Hey JMJeep,interesting fact here.Your 223 is a 3.7 L. :BANANA:

Same as your Jeep. :BANANA:

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:01 am

KJ 119 wrote:

Hey JMJeep,interesting fact here.Your 223 is a 3.7 L. :BANANA:

Same as your Jeep. :BANANA:

KJ 119, I've found that interesting as well. If I know it accurately off the top of my head, I think it is roughly 170hp as well, very similar to the stock KJ too. At least for now

I'm looking to change that (at least with the Ford). The Jeep will happen probably as well.

[quote="jmichaelsjeep"]
I'm still just not sure if I want a bigger carb still in the middle or the 3 single setup

[quote="KJ 119"]
Tom's speaking from experience.You either have carb tuning in your blood or you don't.
If you do,go for it.If you're a novice tuner,go with the Holley 4. :wink:

Different situations may require on the fly tuning.Altitude for instance.

For me it isn't so much about whether I'm comfortable with tuning and adjusting the carb to make the 3 work, it is about whether or not I want to keep this close to original with the single, or do what I can to gain the most in performance without putting too much stress on the stock engine parts (or slightly modified ones). In fact I just got done rebuilding the carburetor, I haven't installed it yet so we'll see if I was successful.

I may get in trouble from my family (parents, grandparents) if I "alter" it too much. So that is weighing on my decision about feeling "comfortable" with it more than mechanical skills with a carb. My main goal with this car is for it to not deteriorate (body and frame rust and get it restored so it doesn't) and have a "old/ classic" car that pretty much drives and performs close to "modern" cars. Not that it has to have full Mustang suspension or anything, just that I can drive it without feeling like I'm a hinderance on the road. It's pretty sluggish and I worry about being too hard on what it is currently capable of. I baby it quite a bit right now and I'd like to be able to know that I can get up to highway speeds at least at a normal level. It also needs some suspension work, the springs in the back are sagging and pretty soft (rear shocks are already replaced) and same with the front coils/shocks. It bobs a lot around corners and over bumps.

So basically, I want to totally restore it!

[quote="jmichaelsjeep"]
I tell you though that intake header setup from Clifford just moved up towards the top of my WISH list! Now I'd just have to figure out if I have the clearance under the hood :lol:

Oh and the $

There goes your Frankinlift :banghead:

Yeah, I know, decisions, decisions!

I "need" the lift (mostly because my suspension is SHOT) I don't "need" the better performance form the 61', but it sure would be nice to finally turn this into a sleeper! :BANANA:

I have the Ford shop manual, so when I have questions about torque settings or how to do something on this particular vehicle, I look to that and if that doesn't give me enough info, I come here!

And an update:
Got the oil pan (and the clutch cover?, it slips under the back end of the oil pan) removed finally after making sure I wasn't going to damage anything in the process. I also removed the stock intake/exhaust manifold so I could replace the gaskets. I have the Jeep in to finish their DS work, so I'm having them run the pans through their parts washer. Once they are back, I am going to repaint them and reinstall them! So far so good, that cork gasket was pretty shot, so it is no wonder it was leaking! I will be repainting the manifolds as well. Does that high temp engine paint work for the manifolds too? I read somewhere that baking this in the oven after painting it will harden the paint even more to ensure a smoother finish and help prevent premature peeling. Anyone know if this is true?

And sorry about totally screwing up the quote stuff, I'm trying to do this quickly since I should be working!

Don't have time to go fix it right now.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:19 am

High temp engine paint works well as long as you prep the surface. No oil or grease. No need to bake it on. It will do that on it's own.

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:50 pm

BVCRD,
Thanks, yeah, that will definitely happen with the manifolds, I was thinking more for the oil pan and fly wheel as in theory, they wouldn't get as hot.

UPDATE: I'm getting near completion of the painting of the pan and flywheel cover, the rebuilt carb is installed. I'll snap some pics soon. For the time being since I think down the road I am going to go with the clifford headers, intake, and holley carb, I've chosen not to repaint the factory intake and exhaust manifold, partially because it doesn't make sense to put the time and effort into these, when I might be getting better ones down the road. The other factor is it would have been another $50 dollars to have them sandblasted. So I replaced the gaskets and once the paint is finished it will all be going back together.

On a side note I picked up a Thrush glass pack and was all set to install it. Needless to say, I should have not touched anything! I finally got the exhaust clamps loosened enough to remove the original muffler and the exhaust pipe leading into it was completely rusted out (not surprising for a car of this era), but given the condition of the portion near the manifold, this surprised me a little, but not much

To top that off, I had measured the tail pipe for diameter and I should have double checked the pipe on the engine side of the muffler, cuz someone (ahem, grandpa), put a larger diameter tailpipe OVER the outlet to the original muffler. Well that one was 2 1/4" and the actual exhaust pipe was only 1 3/4" which I should have known and I could have looked up in my shop manual, but I opted for the measurement and thought I'd be okay... WRONG! Oh well, lesson learned. So in in trying to decide if I'm going to return the muffler for one with a smaller dia. inlet/ outlet I stopped at a local Muffler shop and one of the two guys there I think was having a bad day, cuz his customer service skills SUCKED.
But on to the exhaust, so after some discussion with the two guys there, they quoted me a price of $250 dollars for a custom made exhaust made with aluminized pipe (standard I know, just putting it in for reference) @ a 2 1/4 " diameter flared out at the manifold to go from 1.75 to 2.25".

Here are my two questions:
1) Is $250 dollars reasonable? I've never had to do the complete exhaust before on a vehicle, usually only from cat-back or just muffler, so I just want to know if I should get a second opinion.
2) Is upsizing to a 2.25 inch pipe worth it or am I better off staying with 1.75 since I'm likely going to go do the clifford intake/ exhaust header/ holley setup and have to do another exhaust system at that time. This goes back to what Tommudd said earlier about back flow and such. The muffler is fairly far back, so you don't have much opportunity to have anything other than a short tailpipe after the muffler, so after the muffler, it will be the same diam as before it. Just a side note, cost difference between the two isn't really a factor here, they said it would be roughly $250 either way. If I go 1.75 I'll have to return my glass pack that I got at half price brand new and try and purchase one for the same price with 1.75 inlet outlet. Not a big deal, just laying it out on the table here.

On a separate note, anyone know what the diameter of pipe is on our Libbys and how long our mufflers are? Maybe I'll keep the glasspack and put it on the Jeep! Nah, j/k, I wonder what it would sound like though

Thanks and all thoughts and comments are appreciated!

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:16 am

Update:
I got the flywheel cover and oil pan finished (painted anyway) tonight, just need to get it installed now!

and the breather/ vent tube primered:

JeepinJarhead03 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:43 am

Got a 320 Inline-8 if you wanna play "go long"

TAHOE · **Posted:** Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:57 am

If you paint the exhaust manifolds, make sure you use the 1200* paint, 500* peels right off....don't ask me how I know :banghead:

I sandlblasted an aluminum intake, used 500* clear for it, it yellowed as soon as the heat built up. I should have used the high temp cast aluminum, would've looked better.
OOpps just re-read last post, you're not painting. :dizzy:

$250 for a single pipe exhaust? Hhhmmm, not sure. I had dual tail pipes out of my convertors using 2 1/4 and out the back done for $100, he normally does $150. If that included a performance muffler and nice tip, maybe, but seems high for my area.

jmichaelsjeep · **Posted:** Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:33 am

I've asked around to a few car guys at work here and they are saying the price sounds right, so as soon as I get everything else put back together, the old girl will be getting a new muzzle! :lol:

And JeepinJarhead, I would love to upgrade to 8cylinders! But I want to save some money and do a frame up resto first and then if the cards are right, I'll go big and long, okay, maybe just big! Plus I think a V8 will drop in here much nicer than a straight 8, but it could be a fun mod! I've seen them in a few old chevys and buicks at car shows, and boy those things are BIG!

Thanks for all the advice everyone! Except for my breather tube not being repainted yet (ran out of the engine paint color I was using), it is almost ready to fire up. I sure appreicate this forum for all the advice and knowledge that lies here!

Queston about my 61 Ford?

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