Torque Converter Specs

reka12 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:41 am

If you were to call somebody and you wanted to spec out a torque convertor that is exactly like the "Euro" spec OEM. What would you ask for? How is it different from the first generation?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:28 am

I was at SunCoast right after they bought a Euro converter and they cut it apart to see what was inside. Check out my posts and the pics, you will get what you want. All we could find were bigger dampener springs that I found out Later VM recommended from day one.
In a nutshell the Euro is what the stock converter should have been since day one. What we got instead was a Bean Counter piece of crap that Chrysler detuned the engine and put in screwed up shift points into the TCM program.
If you want to look over the Chrysler Stall Ratio Gobliegook check out Danoid's posts.

If you want a stock converter go withy the Euro.
If you want a Performance converter made for the CRD go with SunCoast.
If you want a Performance converter for a 5.7L Hemi that will fit, Precision Industries makes one.
If you want to spend more than what SunCoast or Precision Industries will charge, go to the Sonax web site, pick out your own parts and have a shop weld it together.
If you want a smoother running engine with less vibration go with a converter that has a billet front cover, the stock or now stock Euro does not have enough flywheel mass, a billet front cover solves the problem.

reka12 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:56 am

Well, here is why I ask... There are companies that rebuild TCs. If they build to the pre-Euro spec, that is no good. If they build to post Euro, then it maybe worth checking out. But, how do you know? If you were to ask a question like: What size dampner springs or do you use the dampner spring that meets specification "MIL-Tuffasnails" then you got the right ones as opposed to the ones built to "MIL-Beancountercrap". Or maybe, "545 FTE Modulous 400 ft/lb, stall speed 1400, GDE Hot Tune Compliant" . These are made specs up of course, but since I don't know "diddlysquat" about TCs, what do you ask for?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:45 pm

reka12 wrote:

Well, here is why I ask... There are companies that rebuild TCs. If they build to the pre-Euro spec, that is no good. If they build to post Euro, then it maybe worth checking out. But, how do you know? If you were to ask a question like: What size dampner springs or do you use the dampner spring that meets specification "MIL-Tuffasnails" then you got the right ones as opposed to the ones built to "MIL-Beancountercrap". Or maybe, "545 FTE Modulous 400 ft/lb, stall speed 1400, GDE Hot Tune Compliant" . These are made specs up of course, but since I don't know "diddlysquat" about TCs, what do you ask for?

Do a Search (hint Euro, SunCoast), read the past posts, it is all there take a look.
With all due respect, if you want to Engineer your own TC, open up your wallet and be ready to take the risk.
Don't expect Chrysler, SunCoast, or Precision Industries to hand over what they know and shelled out money to learn just so you can get a cheaper price at your local TC rebuild shop. If your local TC shop wants to get into the CRD TC rebuild business, perhaps you should loan them your CRD. SunCoast buys a new trucks from Ford, Dodge, and Chevy on a three year rotating cycle so they can develop TCs and Trans mods. For the CRD they borrowed a CRD for several months, tried several configurations to make the TC work well.
I bought the SunCoast so I would not have to engineer my own, for me the Euro did not fit my heavy duty towing needs.

reka12 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:00 pm

What I found after searching was spring thicknesses. I don't have "heavy duty" duty towing needs other than my ski boat, or the flats boat. I do take long trips from FL to the Keys and the NC mtns regularly. I am looking at the GDE Ecotune for the fuel savings and better drivability and have two choices: torque limited vs not. They recommend upgrading to the newer TC (Mopar) as their testing proved it to be adequate for the tune. If in fact someone rebuilds to the newer Mopar spec and lists it in their published information for the TC, then that would be fine. I have had a rebuilt TC put in my Suburban and years ago in my truck and both without problem. But what is the spec I should look for?

As for Suncoast vs. Euro: What specifications sets them apart to have you go Suncoast over the Euro for the heavy duty towing?

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:02 pm

I doubt Suncoast or anyone will tell you the exact things that make theirs better than OEM. Their proprietary specs are what give them the edge. If you want to engineer one on your own, like was said above, you are indeed on your own. Best to just go with one of the two proven options IMO.

reka12 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:15 pm

No, I don't want to engineer one on my own. I only want to know if an aftermarket TC meets minimum specs for the CRD and how to ask for it. Also, what specifications did Warp2diesel use to select a Suncoast over the "Euro".

So if Suncoast will not tell me what makes theirs better, I go by blind faith?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:37 pm

reka12 wrote:

No, I don't want to engineer one on my own. I only want to know if an aftermarket TC meets minimum specs for the CRD and how to ask for it. Also, what specifications did Warp2diesel use to select a Suncoast over the "Euro".

So if Suncoast will not tell me what makes theirs better, I go by blind faith?

I do know SunCoast and Precision Industries use a Sonax front billet cover, heavy duty friction material that is the same as the clutch packs (not the thin stuff they call paper), stronger hub and other guts, and a cast aluminum stator instead of Phenolic Plastic. The other goodies like Turbine and Pump are their respective proprietary info. If you want to see for your self what is in a SunCoast like I did, go to Ft Walton Beach, FL and they will show you.
With millions of Chevy Trucks on the road, the small independent TC rebuilders have it figured out and can rebuild them every day. Only ~11,000 US/Canada CRDs were built so at this time there is not a market for every Tom, Rich, and Harry to get into the Business. If all you want is upgraded stock, the Euro is the best you can do. If you want the TC that will to the 7,000# trailer load with a InMotion Stage 2 tune like me, SunCoast is the option. Five years from now, every Tom, Rich, and Harry may be able to crank out a stock reman CRD TC that is comparable to the Euro nothing more or less.
If you are still Hell Bent on going with a Local rebuilt, have them order the Hemi Race kit from Sonax along with the bigger springs I showed in my past post, and put a TC together for you. That way you will get quality and the same characteristics like stall speed if you use exactly the same pitch Turbine, Pump, and Stator as the CDR. Again, you will need to belly up to the bar, by the time you are done even the SunCoast will be cheaper.
If you want one from Carquest, Autozone, O'Reiley, NAPA, or Advance, don't hold your breath.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:17 pm

I'm not understanding why you want a rebuit TC :?:

There are literly tons of threads about the Suncoast. Besides the billet (sp?) cover Warp talks about they have a metal stator instead of Chrysler's plastic one. What, you didn't know all THREE of Chrysler's CRD TC's have plastic stators. You didn't know there was a third TC??

It's like this;
The original TC that was used in CRD's untill 11/05 had a new cushion something that didn't hold up longer then a few thousand miles (what happended to long term testing)
The replacement was the older version without the cushion. Those built before 11/05 and that includes some 06 modles were replaced.
The third is the "Euro" TC that was made for the newer more power full VM RA428 used in new jeeps

Now if you want to reinvent the wheel go ahead, it's your money :BANANA:

If you want to take it to the strip on saterday, tow your pulling tractor to a tractor pull on Sunday then spring for the Sun Coast.
If you occasionally tow your 5000# or under camping a few times a year and cash is short then get the "Euro". Last I heard it was around$300 online

Then get the full torque ECO tune and enjoy your CRD.

Joe

reka12 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:28 pm

Well, looking at the published specs between the GDE Eco Tune and the Inmotion Stage 2, not much difference. I am not hell bent on anything, but taking an engineer's perspective and doing my homework. For instance, GDE says the Euro is fine for the same performance as the Inmotion Stage 2. Therefore, why pay 2x the cost of an acceptable, OEM TC, especially for a daily driver and not a car that will see extreme conditions? I am also asking questions to find perfomance specifications so I can sift through useless manufacturer's claim such as "its made of billet so it must be better". No, I will use numbers to back it up, then look at other's experience and research to get an idea of quality, build material, service, warranty, etc.

If I was building a backcountry crawler that will see extreme conditions that I will never encounter in my daily to and from work, then maybe the construction, materials, specifications and claims made by another manufacturer will be worthy of the cost increase.

Why is this so difficult? I mean, we buy performance parts such as alternators (delivered amps), carbs (CFM and other characteristics), springs (loading and rebound), tires (treadlife, temperature) and many other add-on and replacement parts based on performance specifications. A TC has to be able to survive the hp and torque given to it. It has to respond to the characterisitcs desirable to the driver and application. I am sure that the designers put together a TC that meets the broadest range of driving characteristics, dependability and lowest production costs. After two bad attempts, it seems that changing only the dampener springs and ridding of a cushion allows the TC to work with the VM motor. No one yet has been able to give me numbers or anything to work with.

So, back to my original question: When I call a NATIONAL rebuilder such as Dacco and ask about a TC that they have in stock and sell for $150 do I ask if all parts are original and do you use the upgraded springs? The ones that are 0.105" diameter? Do I ask what the rated stall speed is (if so, what is correct?) Do I ask them what the torque multiplication ratio is (again: what is correct answer?) or is it a simple as asking if the TC is applicable to '08 Euro Jeep Liberty Diesels with the 545 FTE transmission?

As to why bother with a rebuilt? Cost. If everything else is equal.

Oh, and by the way, I am looking into Inmotion because of the similar performance characteristics but the lower cost.

I

reka12 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:01 pm

Here is an example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/45RFE-5- ... ccessories

No additional infomation other than 5-45 RFE and Jeep Grand Cherokee. Will this work? How will I know? BTW, this is not the one I am looking at, just an example.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:23 pm

Reka,

Check my posts for my dyno results. The IM SII makes quite a bit more power than the GDE ECO and slightly less than the GDE "HOT". The advantages of GDE include 3-4 MPG better and several other nice/trick features, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, GDE keeps the EGR valve closed almost all the time which is essential for longevity and lower maintainance requirements. With the IM, you have to use an additional device called SEGR which is too complicated for most people to handle by themsevles. If you have a pro build and install, it ends up being a lot more than just a GDE tune, by itself. (The GDE TCM tune adds at least another 2-3 MPG.)

If you drive carefully, you can get pretty much the same mileage with the HOT tune as the ECO and you have a lot more power available when you need it. (Same price)

We have towed a 5K trailer 20K so far with the "euro" TC and GDE "HOT" tune with no problems.

Welcome to the KJ CRD club...........

DOC

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:32 pm

I greatly respect Sir Isac Newton who is the Father of Calculus and discovered most of the Laws Of Physics (Newtonian) that pertain to what Gear Heads care about. When I see an Engineer get obsessed with spread sheets and count beans, I can hear Newton rolling over in his grave. I my work I get to explain why Cost Benefit Analysis Engineering is superior to Bean Counter Engineering and going for the cheap to cut costs and pay much more later.
From what I can tell by your comments, you have not researched the LOST posts where this has been all discussed at length before. All of the scenarios you are entertaining have been covered many times before, at nauseaum.

I try to help and lead people in the right direction, but I am not going on a spoon feeding quest and hand over the data on a platinum platter. You need to do the work.

One last time do the research, read the posts in LOST and you will see what you want to know, it is all there.

GDE Hot tune advances the timing more than InMotion Stage 2. Based upon the data I have retrieved from my own past real world experience with Diesel Engines and what I have read on Forums, advancing the timing beyond correcting for the crappy cetaine we have in the US is very risky. In other Diesel Engines I messed with when I had my own repair shop, I trashed Glow Plugs, Head Gaskets, and rings when I advanced the timing too much to increase fuel economy. IDI 6.2L. 6.5L Turbo and Cummins mechanical injected engines have had the same problems reported in their respective forums.
Since I no longer have the time or energy to replace glow plugs, head gaskets, and rings, I made the choice to play it safe and go with InMotion Stage 2 instead of the GDE Hot Tune.

OldSkull · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:49 pm

REKA 12
You look for the BBB (best bang for the buck) and It's not always a good thing....You make a big mistake my friend, InMotion stage 2 is similar to HOT TUNE from GDE (Well except the timing) not the ECO TUNE and GDE have modified the ECO lately to produce more low end torque (AKA Towing) The ECO from InMotion are $100 cheaper.... Compare the dyno torque curve of both

I purchase the programmer and the ECO performance tune for $750 shipping include! And just to make thing more interesting GDE offer the hot tune for an extra $50 so I Drop $800 and get a perfect testing platform, the TCM tune? Just drop a $150 over the package and get all for $950.
I don’t think InMotion offer deal like this, there programmer and ECO is just $700 but for my extra $50 I got the best service you can get! Keith send tool to its customers for taking care of their rig! Ask this to any other tuning company! He is here and helps so for me there is nothing better, ask InMotion to sell you a VM motori OEM timing belt for $120...Go ahead! Price is not always numero Uno on the list.

GDE have made all testing for you so if they say the EURO TC can handle the ECO and Hot TUNE I have no doubt . Hunting a $150 TC with spec like the EURO is not impossible but you are on your own bro! Go ahead you can play the "Guinea pig" game and get lucky with a cheaper solution for everyone or....Crash and burn.

I wish you succeed in your search young Padawan!

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:09 pm

OldSkull wrote:

I wish you succeed in your search young Padawan!

X2 I think :-)r

reka12 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:34 pm

Nope, did not no about the THREE variations or the plastic. Good info to know. Thanks Doc! Good information; tangible. Oldskull: I value your opinion and the information sent but sorry, I am not young anymore. So, I go blazing trails in search of sanity in the spec sheets!

tulsa · **Posted:** Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:12 am

European TC re-builders may be a source for current Euro spec TC's, and or specifications.

OldSkull · **Posted:** Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:46 am

reka12 wrote:

Oldskull: I value your opinion and the information sent but sorry, I am not young anymore. So, I go blazing trails in search of sanity in the spec sheets!

I already try a similar trail on my side of the fence and my quest was more then fertile my lord! But the price to paid was bloody hight and they never let me read the parchment keeping the secret of the miraculous TC :mrgreen:

Here the link of this castle http://www.matechbta.com/

Gerge · **Posted:** Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:24 pm

Try asking them which dodge vehicles the torque converter works with. When I had mine redone on the jeep it was at aamco and the guy woudnt order the euro and put it in, had to use aamco for their warranty. I started asking him about the TC. He gave me a list of several other dodge trucks they would use the tourque converter in. There were two varieties of their Dodge tourque converter, a low stall and a high stall. The high stall was for the hemi type stuff, the low stall for most of the other trucks. I reasoned that if this was the same TC that woud be used in most dodge trucks then it was probably built to the "new stock" specs, ie euro tc. So i got the unlimited tourque eco tune. If I am wrong I have a three year warranty. The next four posts will be about how I am wrong

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:11 am

Problems of designing by specifications:

Specifications: Loving single female desires companionship affection and commitment.

Sounds great, right.

Here is the winner:

Cute Pup, now the guy needs to find a Girl Friend that like his pup.

Torque Converters are the same way. Four Cylinder Diesel engines have a 120 degree power pulse but have to travel 180 degrees between power pulses. Therefore there is more torsional vibration with a four cylinder as opposed to a V6 or V8 that the stock converters were designed for. To solve the problem you either need larger dampener springs like the Euro Torque Converter that VM recommended to Chrysler from day one, or a larger flywheel mass like the Suncoast (has both big springs and mass now) or Precision Industries (don't know) Torque Converters. Spread Sheet Engineering is as weak as Bean Counter Engineering.
Hands On Gear Head Engineering is SuperiorO
Sir Isac Newton can continue to Rest in Peace.

Torque Converter Specs

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