2005 Liberty CRD 2.8 Limited ...Disaster...

GoodCRD · **Posted:** Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:15 pm

Do the work yourself. You should be able to replace the cylinder sleeve, piston and connecting rods while the engine is still in the vehicle. These are industrial type engines made to be rebuilt in the field. It will take you some time to follow the shop manual. But just think, you won't be dependent on someone else to keep the jeep going for the long haul. If you lived near Oklahoma City, OK. I would show you how to do repair for nothing. If you must have someone do it, find a diesel fleet mechanic who wants to make some extra money on the side. His experience will serve you well.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:22 pm

2 questions:

1. Is there enough room to drop the oil pan without undoing motor mounts?
(also, the balance shafts will have to be removed before you can get to the rods)
2. What is the special tool required for pulling the liners?

ski55 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:57 pm **Posts:** 3

Ask the mechanic to stick a suction cup on the top of the piston and yank it out of the bore. I have had the piston top separate at the first ring groove giving the appearance of broken rod.

andrewjake3 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:43 am

That is interesting...but if that is the case, doesn't the engine still have to come out to be rebuilt?
The new piston has to be weighed with the rod and counter balanced before being installed, right?

kadetklapp · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:44 am

There isn't enough clearance to pull the pan with the motor in the Jeep.

If the piston was completely severed from the rod I would think you would have had a catastrophic failure long ago. Probably going to have to pull the motor, flip it over, and pull the pan to get it out.

Get lots of tape and plastic bags and a good Sharpie and start labeling parts and wires.

ski55 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:57 pm **Posts:** 3

kadetklapp wrote:

There isn't enough clearance to pull the pan with the motor in the Jeep.

If the piston was completely severed from the rod I would think you would have had a catastrophic failure long ago. Probably going to have to pull the motor, flip it over, and pull the pan to get it out.

Get lots of tape and plastic bags and a good Sharpie and start labeling parts and wires.

What I refer to is not piston separation from rod but top of piston from bottom. In this case the rod is still connected to piston with remaining rings providing sufficient bearing surface to allow fairly normal stroke, slap noise and no compression with fair amount of exhaust smoke and crankcase blowby.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 pm

ski55 wrote:

kadetklapp wrote:

There isn't enough clearance to pull the pan with the motor in the Jeep.

If the piston was completely severed from the rod I would think you would have had a catastrophic failure long ago. Probably going to have to pull the motor, flip it over, and pull the pan to get it out.

Get lots of tape and plastic bags and a good Sharpie and start labeling parts and wires.

What I refer to is not piston separation from rod but top of piston from bottom. In this case the rod is still connected to piston with remaining rings providing sufficient bearing surface to allow fairly normal stroke, slap noise and no compression with fair amount of exhaust smoke and crankcase blowby.

You had this happen on a CRD? What caused it, any theories? Have you been following the saga of KJ119 and his noisy engine? Thoughts on his?

Our pistons aren't solid across the top, a suction cup isn't needed if what you describe has happened. There is a big "dish" with space all around the edges for fingers to pull the piston head out. But I've seen these pistons and held them myself from my detonated engine. These are BEEFY, I'm still amazed that mine split VERTICALLY and came apart in the way it did. I can't imagine that they would separate on a ring groove that is only a 1/4" deep out of such a thick piece of aluminum.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:28 pm

Are the pistons in this engine two piece?
i.e. iron head and aluminum skirt?

ski55 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:57 pm **Posts:** 3

geordi wrote:

ski55 wrote:

kadetklapp wrote:

There isn't enough clearance to pull the pan with the motor in the Jeep.

If the piston was completely severed from the rod I would think you would have had a catastrophic failure long ago. Probably going to have to pull the motor, flip it over, and pull the pan to get it out.

Get lots of tape and plastic bags and a good Sharpie and start labeling parts and wires.

What I refer to is not piston separation from rod but top of piston from bottom. In this case the rod is still connected to piston with remaining rings providing sufficient bearing surface to allow fairly normal stroke, slap noise and no compression with fair amount of exhaust smoke and crankcase blowby.

You had this happen on a CRD? What caused it, any theories? Have you been following the saga of KJ119 and his noisy engine? Thoughts on his?

Our pistons aren't solid across the top, a suction cup isn't needed if what you describe has happened. There is a big "dish" with space all around the edges for fingers to pull the piston head out. But I've seen these pistons and held them myself from my detonated engine. These are BEEFY, I'm still amazed that mine split VERTICALLY and came apart in the way it did. I can't imagine that they would separate on a ring groove that is only a 1/4" deep out of such a thick piece of aluminum.

The smallest engine I had the pop top piston occur was a gas 1196 cc Triumph Spitfire back in the early 70s. The others were larger industrial diesels. Did your piston split parallel to pin ? I have had no problems with my 06 CRD at 81k. As for thoughts on why crack at ring groove, the groove is a weak spot even if it is only .010 deep, no different than a control joint placed in a concrete slab. Stress it and that's where it will crack.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:51 pm

ski55 wrote:

The smallest engine I had the pop top piston occur was a gas 1196 cc Triumph Spitfire back in the early 70s. The others were larger industrial diesels. Did your piston split parallel to pin ? I have had no problems with my 06 CRD at 81k. As for thoughts on why crack at ring groove, the groove is a weak spot even if it is only .010 deep, no different than a control joint placed in a concrete slab. Stress it and that's where it will crack.

I don't know if it split parallel to the pin, there wasn't enough left large enough to tell. The largest piece was only about 1" triangular, and 3/4" tall. Just enough to establish that there HAD been ring grooves on the edge (3/4" side) and that it was a piston head. Everything else was either rod... Or shrapnel too small to identify. It really pulverized the heIl out of that cylinder. Even the liner was completely obliterated.

abhester3 · **Joined:** Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:57 am **Posts:** 39

I'm with Ski55 on this, I've seen the top of a piston completely broken off the bottom of the piston along a ring groove. What I've seen was caused by too much ether while trying to start a reluctant diesel... In one case I'd diagnosed #4 cylinder bad on a 6 cyl. Cat, pulled the head and was shocked to see the piston right where it should be. With a sinking feeling I nudged the piston and it FELL down the bore two inches or so! The bottom part of the piston was pretty broken up and the liner was ruined from the rod hitting it but it looked fine from the topside. A piston, liner and rod (all used

) had her going again...

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:37 pm

The piston on the KJ is a one-piece cast aluminum piece with an insert where the full-floating pin goes. The skirts have an anti-scuff coating on them. There is a passage way around the pin and in the underside of the combustion chamber for the oil that sprays out of the squirter to pass through. I've never seen an entire crown on these engines separate, although I have had it happen on the 400 big block in my old Mopar.

As for the liner replacement, it can be done in the vehicle but you have to be very precise with measuring the protrusion of the new liner and shimming it correctly. Unfortunately it's not as easy as grabbing the liner with your hand and sliding it out, but with the factory service tools it's all possible. Also, the rods/pistons are made within a certain tolerance so there's not a need for pre-measuring and balancing the assembly going back in.

If the crank is scored or otherwise damaged by the rod/piston failure, remember it's a tunnel block design so with the trans removed, it will slide out the rear of the block (this could technically be done while in the car if you're determined enough).

kadetklapp · **Posted:** Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:43 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

If the crank is scored or otherwise damaged by the rod/piston failure, remember it's a tunnel block design so with the trans removed, it will slide out the rear of the block (this could technically be done while in the car if you're determined enough).

Good info! Did not know that..

coyrl · **Joined:** Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:11 pm **Posts:** 15

My 05 liberty diesel has experienced the same failure.
I've pulled the motor and placed it on a stand. Pulled the cylinder head and see evidence of number 1 and 4 pistons striking the cylinder head. I have to do the work myself. Thanks for the previous link to parts supplier. I purchased the factor tool kit. I know and excellent engine machinist that has rebuilt diesels before. Very reasonable price. I'll post progress. Is this the right place? Maybe I can put photos of the process and techniques.

Pull the motor. The work will be a lot easier.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:39 am

Coyrl,

Yes, please post the repair process with pictures as you suggested and we would be very appreciative.

coyrl · **Joined:** Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:11 pm **Posts:** 15

Will do. Tonight I found the real problem. Two connecting rod bearings spun. Number one and four. Number one bearing completely gone, number four mostly gone. Will post photos of damage tomorrow. That is why the pistons were slapping the cylinder head. The dealer that "diagnosed" the problem did not have a clue. Only stated that they would swap out the motor for 8000. No way, too much.
I hope the crank is not too damaged. I may be able to have the crank ground and bearings replaced. I will inspect the oil pump as it may have failed and caused the issue. I know enough oil was in the engine at the time of failure. A teenager in my house could be the root cause too. That aspect will be investigated as well.

Debris from oil pan.

Number one connecting rod journal scored.

UFO · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:54 pm

I had a feeling that was the problem. A bit easier to understand. Sometimes I wonder where mechanics get their goofy theories and justifications for repairs.

andrewjake3 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:48 pm

Well, The jeep in still sitting on my car hauler and I'm waiting on an engine from Chrysler or a mechanic that I can find to do a rebuild.
It's supposed to come in on dec.1st.
Any mechanic out there wanting to do the work?

coyrl · **Joined:** Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:11 pm **Posts:** 15

It has been an adventure since the last post. I had to replace the crank and rods. Actually I'm rebuilding the entire motor. Pistons, rings, valve job. Everything. It took a long time to get the parts and had some duplications due to the lack of clarity of parts definition. I've been cleaning parts and the block is stripped completely down. I'm going to start assembly with as far as I can. But first, the oil gallery plugs are going to be pulled. I want to ensure no blockage of any passage. I',m still puzzled as to the root cause of the bearing failure. It makes no sense that number 1 and 4 connecting rod bearings so badly failed.

One thing i did find is that the oil pressure relief valve spring is .200" shorter than factory spec. The length will be compared with the new spring when it arrives. I've purchased the two gauge post for my Jeep and will add and oil pressure and transmission temperature gauge. I want to have direct mechanical oil pressure measurement. I found a good spot on the block to tap for the fitting.

Also, I'm building my own web server since I can't post pictures here and don't want to pay flickr as I'll have many pictures with detailed steps to share. Stand by, I wish getting parts didn't take so long.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:02 am

coyrl wrote:

It I'm building my own web server since I can't post pictures here and don't want to pay flickr as I'll have many pictures with detailed steps to share. Stand by, I wish getting parts didn't take so long.

Great, we'll be waiting for your write up. Also list where you sourced the parts from.

Thank you and sorry for your loss.

2005 Liberty CRD 2.8 Limited ...Disaster...

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