Bad battery or something else?

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:36 pm

Entering my 3rd year with the 2005 Liberty and still absolutely love it. It's been serving great as a tow vehicle for my sleds. With that being said I've run into an issue.

Currently has 102,000 miles on it. In January I was up in northern New Hampshire snowmobiling and I went to go start the Jeep. (Temp was -15 at the time). Battery was dead, I had to get it jumped. Started right up. Even after about an hour, it was still slow to start but it did start.

I get back home and the next day the battery is dead. It was the original Jeep/Chrysler battery in it so I figure it's due and I replace it with a Autozone Duralast battery. Everything seems fine.

Fast forward too today. I get a call from my wife that the Jeep was acting strange and now it won't start. She says about 5 minutes after driving it. All of the gauges start going nut's, the radio shut's off and all of the idiot lights come on. The Jeep is still running during all this time. She drives it back to the house. Shut's it off to go in the house and comes back out 5 minutes later. The Jeep is dead, it's a no crank condition. All warning lights come on when the key goes to the on position, however the starter does not cycle on.

She get's a ride to work and comes back 5 hours later, Goes to start the Jeep and it fires right up. Everything is normal, no check engine light. Gauges working, radio working with no issues.

I get home and get in and it starts right up. No check engine light, no codes come across the display.I tuned on all electric's, radio, blower on full blast with AC on. Broke out the mutimeter and took the following readings across the battery

14.3 volts when running and all accessories on.
13.2 volts when engine not running and everything shut off.

Everything looks fine, the only thing I noticed was whether I had all of the accessories on or not. The dome light would increase/decrease in brightness if I increased engine RPM.

I think I may have a flaky battery, what do you think?

CIEJEK'S KJ · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:43 pm

my kj did the same thing all the gauges started going nuts, so i replaced the battery even after getting good reading with a multimeter, but as i was taking the old one out i reconnected the terminals, got the multimeter out and had someone turn the key it didnt do anything the voltage dropped to 1.2 volts when a load was put on it, so new battery works just fine now

JL Rockies · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:13 pm

I say either keep throwing batteries at it or replace your broken alternator.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:39 pm

JL Rockies wrote:

I say either keep throwing batteries at it or replace your broken alternator.

Why makes you think the alternator is broken?

Billwill · **Posted:** Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:13 am

Your alternator seems to be charging OK.
You need to check that you have good clean tight battery connections and that the earth strap earthing the engine to the chassis also has a good clean and tight connection.

You may need to check if anything is draining the battery while it is standing.

Plug your voltmeter into the cigar lighter/DC outlet point up front so you can keep an eye on what the charge voltage is doing while you are driving and also keep an eye open to look for any change in voltage if you do something such as switch on the AC or operate the wipers etc.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:47 pm

Update.

Went out this morning to pull it into the garage to start checking out battery connections and some other things.

The condition has returned, it's back to a no crank condition. So I went ahead and swapped the battery from my car and the condition is the same.
This removes that battery from the equation. I went ahead and checked the cables and ground wire going to the chassis and everything looks good. I even went as far to remove the wires from the post and clean it up. Still no change.

This is the odd part.

When I turn the key to the run position. The idiots lights come on and then turn off. They then start turning on in the following sequence

Low Fuel Light
Air Bag Light
Check Engine Light.

What is weird is that the fuel gauge never moves at all.

I tried putting it in neutral thinking it was a bad position switch. No change. I also tried both keys and jiggled the key in the ignition switch. No change.

Any ideas?

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:11 pm

I bet when you jumped your vehicle the first time your battery went dead, your PCM was damaged. Since it controls all kinds of things, including voltage regulation apparently, that it needs replacing.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:28 pm

Update.

Had my mechanic stop by today with his Launch X431 Wireless Scanner. Pretty cool device. Allows you to do diagnostic tests from outside the vehicle with the PDA.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/49333 ... anner.html

Initial diagnosis appears that the ATS/SKIM system is interfering with the PCM and somehow the PCM is now imobilized. The scan tool came back that the PCM was not responding back to commands.

So the Jeep will be taking the ride of shame to his garage on Monday for a further diagnosis.

Billwill · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:54 am

Disconnect the battery and re-plug the PCM connections a few times in case you have a bad contact then re-connect the battery.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:32 am

Billwill wrote:

Disconnect the battery and re-plug the PCM connections a few times in case you have a bad contact then re-connect the battery.

How exactly do the 4 plugs remove from the PCM. I went ahead and slid the little red saefty locks back and I didn't see any type of tang to press on to remove them. I was a little leary of forcing them out of there for the fear of causing damage.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:37 pm

Update:

I figured out the PCM connections. Yes I was being a dummy

I went ahead and removed the negative battery cable and all of the PCM connectors and let it sit.

About 2 hours later I went back and plugged everything back in and VROOOM it fired right up. I let it run for about 15 min in the garage trying to duplicate the original condition. Everything is normal, nothing strange occurring.

Feeling lucky I decided I drive it to my mechanics garage which is about 15 minutes away and again no issues. Once there I stopped it and started it about 15 times and each time it fired right up.

So now it's currently at the garage awaiting a further diagnosis. I think reseating the connections may have done the trick, but I want to make sure.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:56 pm

Update:

The Liberty was hooked up to the diagnostic machine and the alternator was determined as the point of failure. One of of the diodes failed in the internal regulator causing an over voltage condition. Which in turn caused the PCM to flake out.

He looked on AllData and the service bulletins had an article of this scenario causing the PCM into a "Protection Mode", which explains why it would not start. So a new alternator will be going in tommorow.

Kinda sucks that I have to put in an alternator, but on the other hand I'm relieved it's not the PCM or something else.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:54 pm

Update:

Have had the Liberty back since Tuesday and so far the condition has not returned. It's running great one again. Hopefully my my experience will help someone out in the future.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:00 pm

Condition is back...WTH.

At least it's being nice enough to die in the driveway.

Billwill · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:57 am

99_XC600 wrote:

Condition is back...WTH.

At least it's being nice enough to die in the driveway.

I had a suspician this would happen...I did not quite buy the explanation about the alternator :cry:

It worked for a while after you re-plugged the connectors on the PCM a few times....your problem is there somewhere.
If the mechanics think your voltage is rising up too high...plug a voltmeter in your front power outlet and monitor the voltage while driving and when the problem re-occurs.

You may have a wiring issue. :shock:

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:12 pm

The issue has been traced back to the security immobilizer being activated and is not allowing the PCM to initialize. The security LED is lit on the dash and will not go off.

I had it scanned again (Still dead in the garage) and the same code came back as when it died 2 weeks ago. PCM not communicating due to ATS lock out. The alternator was bad, however it's completely unrelated to it's current condition.

Came across this article over the weekend and it pretty much describes my current condition. It seems that the root cause is the WCM not detecting the key as a valid key and will not let the PCM to power on. Granted the article is about a Grand Cherokee. However this is the same basic system that Chrysler uses in all of it's vehicles.

http://www.realworldautomotive.com/foru ... rting.html

Billwill · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:24 am

99_XC600 wrote:

The issue has been traced back to the security immobilizer being activated and is not allowing the PCM to initialize. The security LED is lit on the dash and will not go off.

I had it scanned again (Still dead in the garage) and the same code came back as when it died 2 weeks ago. PCM not communicating due to ATS lock out. The alternator was bad, however it's completely unrelated to it's current condition.

Came across this article over the weekend and it pretty much describes my current condition. It seems that the root cause is the WCM not detecting the key as a valid key and will not let the PCM to power on. Granted the article is about a Grand Cherokee. However this is the same basic system that Chrysler uses in all of it's vehicles.

http://www.realworldautomotive.com/foru ... rting.html

I presume you have the SKIS system?
If the symbol of a key with a line through it flashes continously it means that the SKIM module...which sits on top of the steering column and has a loop around where the key sits in the ignition........does not recognise a valid chip in the key.
You can try another key but if that does nor work then the SKIM module or the communication to the PCM is faulty or the PCM needs to be re-programed.

If the key symbol light stays on permanantly it means a SKIM module failure or a failure transmitting the status to the PCM.

It could mean that the SKIM module did recognise the chip in the key and transmitted the code to the PCM OK but when the PCM tried to energise the ASD (Auto Shut Down ) relay it did not get confirmation back that the relay had energised.

I had this problem on my 2002 CRD....the ECU (on the CRD) sent the signal to energise the ASD relay but in my case the wire to the relay had an intermittant break so the ASD relay would not energise. The ECU therefor did not get back the confirmation that the ASD relay had energised and thus the SKIM light stayed on permanently.

Try swapping the ASD relay in the fuse box in the engine bay with another relay of the same kind.

The fact that the problem dissapeared when you replugged the connectors on your PCM would suggest to me that you have a problem somewhere in that area.

You need to get the circuit diagram for your KJ...Sam has these in the Sticky at the top of the "Frequently Asked Questions..02, 05-06 FSM"...and trace the wiring to the ASD relay to see if it is energising and if the return signal gets back to the PCM.

In my case I had to put in a new section of wiring from the ASD relay coil circuit to the ECM connector.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:21 am

Billwill wrote:

99_XC600 wrote:

The issue has been traced back to the security immobilizer being activated and is not allowing the PCM to initialize. The security LED is lit on the dash and will not go off.

I had it scanned again (Still dead in the garage) and the same code came back as when it died 2 weeks ago. PCM not communicating due to ATS lock out. The alternator was bad, however it's completely unrelated to it's current condition.

Came across this article over the weekend and it pretty much describes my current condition. It seems that the root cause is the WCM not detecting the key as a valid key and will not let the PCM to power on. Granted the article is about a Grand Cherokee. However this is the same basic system that Chrysler uses in all of it's vehicles.

http://www.realworldautomotive.com/foru ... rting.html

I presume you have the SKIS system?
If the symbol of a key with a line through it flashes continously it means that the SKIM module...which sits on top of the steering column and has a loop around where the key sits in the ignition........does not recognise a valid chip in the key.
You can try another key but if that does nor work then the SKIM module or the communication to the PCM is faulty or the PCM needs to be re-programed.

If the key symbol light stays on permanantly it means a SKIM module failure or a failure transmitting the status to the PCM.

It could mean that the SKIM module did recognise the chip in the key and transmitted the code to the PCM OK but when the PCM tried to energise the ASD (Auto Shut Down ) relay it did not get confirmation back that the relay had energised.

I had this problem on my 2002 CRD....the ECU (on the CRD) sent the signal to energise the ASD relay but in my case the wire to the relay had an intermittant break so the ASD relay would not energise. The ECU therefor did not get back the confirmation that the ASD relay had energised and thus the SKIM light stayed on permanently.

Try swapping the ASD relay in the fuse box in the engine bay with another relay of the same kind.

The fact that the problem dissapeared when you replugged the connectors on your PCM would suggest to me that you have a problem somewhere in that area.

You need to get the circuit diagram for your KJ...Sam has these in the Sticky at the top of the "Frequently Asked Questions..02, 05-06 FSM"...and trace the wiring to the ASD relay to see if it is energising and if the return signal gets back to the PCM.

In my case I had to put in a new section of wiring from the ASD relay coil circuit to the ECM connector.

Thanks for the tips.

The ASD relay swap was one of the first things I tried. I also went through and pulled every fuse in the PDC and the Panel on the drivers side. still had no luck in resurrecting it.

I even went as far as pulling the PCM out of the Jeep and disconnecting the battery cables for a day in an effort to see if I could clear the error. Still no luck.

It seems to be a fairly common problem. Once I Googled "Chrysler Wireless Control Module" I found the same scenario of a no crank condition on pretty much all of their vehicles.

It will be going to the dealer this week to confirm the issue. Unfortunately, there isnt much more that I can do. Since the WCM is replaced. It needs to be programmed with your keys.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:00 pm

Long time since an update on this situation.

The Liberty has been in the garage for about a week and half. I was all set to have it towed to the nearest dealer last week when both the washer and dryer in our house died. So the funds in our bank account took a pretty good size hit when we decided to purchase a new front loading washer and dryer.

For the past 2 weeks, the Jeep has been stone cold dead. No signs of life what so ever. My wife calls a towing company to have it flat bedded over to the dealer. While waiting for the towing company. She goes out to the garage with our son to push it out of the garage. For the hell of it she decides to try to start it.

It EFFIN starts right up!!! No issues. WTH!?!?! :banghead:

So she calls me to tells it started and she's going to drive it to the dealer. Calls the towing company to cancel the tow.

While she is driving it, it starts to run crappy. Check engine light comes on and then stalls. She starts it again and makes it to the dealer. Engine light continues to be lit, she says it feels like it's low on power. But other than that seems to be ok.

Dealer calls me to tell it was the Crank Position Sensor and more than likely it was causing a dead short to the Liberty.

Now this is where I'm confused. I read about this issue and even went as far as unplugging the sensor to see if the PCM ever received power. Condition never changed.

I'm hoping that was the issue, but I have a feeling I may be dealing with this issue again.

While it was there, they also did the recall on the rear control arms.

99_XC600 · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 2:29 pm

Ongoing story on my Jeep, but I think it's finally resolved. Long long long story.

After picking up the KJ from the dealership 8 weeks ago, everything was fine for about 3 weeks. Until one Sunday night, when my wife was driving it in a heavy rain and it started to flake out again. The gauges started to reset again and the lights acted like it was having an epileptic seizure. We turned it off, restarted it and everything was fine. Drove it for 10 min - everything was ok.

Monday, my wife drives it to her work and no problems. Comes out about 4 hours later. It's back to the no-crank condition. :banghead:

. It sits in the parking garage until Tuesday

Tuesday - We arrange for it to be flat bedded back to the dealer. As we are waiting for the tow, we try to start it again and it starts. WTH? We drive it on to the flatbed and send it on it's way.

Tuesday through Friday - Dealer can not reproduce the condition, it's starting and driving fine. The weather is nice and sunny out, no rain for 4 days. Dealer says to come pick it up on Saturday.

Saturday - We go to pick it up and it's back to a no crank condition. Service writer think's it may be the starter but won't know until Monday morning when the tech looks at it again.

Monday - Tech says it's the starter and it's causing the system to ground out. We tell them to go ahead and replace it and keep the Jeep for the remainder of the week. Since it's going to be raining out

Thursday - Dealer calls to come pick it up, It's been driving fine. No issues at all in the rain.

Thursday Afternoon - Wife goes to pick it. Tech took it out to put some gas in it for all the driving they did with it. While it was out getting gas, the gauges started to reset and having seizures again. Problem is still not fixed. Dealer gives us a 2011 Malibu as a loaner until they figure out what is going on with it.

Friday - No call

Monday - Dealer calls to tell us they found a single broken wire going from the cluster to the PCM and they believe that it's the reason for all of the issues. They go ahead and fix it. We tell them to keep it for the week again in the rain to make sure it's good to go.

Thursday - Dealer calls and says everything looks good. No issues and asks for permission to take it home. He has a 40 mile commute and it's raining out so it would be a good test. We tell him to go ahead. I actually pass him on the highway going home that night. It was funny to see it going down the road.

Saturday - We picked it up and so far so good everything is ok.

This has been a huge PIA getting this thing fixed. No fault to the dealer since it was an intermittent electrical issue that only occurred in the rain after the moisture was allowed to build up and cause a short. It was at the dealers for the past 3 weeks, not including the first trip when the CPS and the keys were reflashed.

Kudos to the dealer, they really stepped up to the plate in getting this thing fixed. They didn't charge us for the time to find the broken wire , since this is why we brought it in the first place and they gave my wife a Enterprise rental car for a week on their dime and they detailed the Jeep when they were done. They made absolutely no money on this repair.

Bad battery or something else?

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