Turbo Blew

Boss · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:35 am

Brian's Morning Newsletter
Tuesday, April 17 2012

Good Morning
Yep, the non-mechanically inclined can skip this morning's newsletter.
I'm posting this on the LostJeeps forum this morning so it is a dissertation on the turbocharger repair as much as a newsletter.
The Jeep lost power with a puff of smoke during the last leg of a ~500 mile round trip to Kenton, Oklahoma from our home in Northern New Mexico, near Sapello (87745)
I trouble shot the engine problem using a combination of experiences. As I suspected it was the turbo, because it has been making whining noises since Fall. Nell and I replaced the fuel filter in the parking lot of the gas station in Wagon Mound where the trouble occurred, so the lack of power wasn't a fuel delivery issue. This was the first trip of the season using biodiesel, so we had to get the fuel filter out of the way.

Also I now have the bluetooth OBDII scan tool and the Android App Torque running. It had reported a MAP sensor discrepancy, nothing more. I have not been able to dig very deep in the Torque App, or at least not been able to get very much from the App nor the Wiki and forum, but I have played with the program often.A nyway I didn't know if I believed the MAP sensor error under these conditions. It didn't really matter what the Jeep's computer was saying, this wasn't my first dance with a blown turbo. I knew the symptoms. The most important is to monitor the engine oil very closely. When a turbo breaks it often sucks the engine oil normally used to lubricate the turbine shaft bearings and shoots it into the diesel engine. The results can be quickly disastrous. The engine could enter what's called a "runaway," condition, meaning it is feeding on its own motor oil. A diesel can maintain a runaway condition until it uses all of its engine oil, and when it's out, the engine having none left for its own lubrication dies a horrible death.

We were hopeful. It was Easter. Alas, the fuel filter didn't change the fact that the engine didn't have any power. We drove the Jeep up a block and back amid a terrible cloud of white smoke. I shut it off and thankfully,it did so. There was oil dripping out of the bottom of the muffler. The only thing left for us to do was figure out how we were going to get ourselves and our Jeep the rest of the 50 miles home with out starting the engine again.

turbo-exhaust-side
(turbo-exhaust-side) After much shuffling of vehicles we had the Jeep in the shop. The VW Diesel Rabbit cylinder head project got literally put on the back burner as it easily went with a light push from Jack and me. The Jeep was turned around in the field and with the aid of a long tow chain we were able to sling it around and get it close enough to the garage door to pull it the rest of the way in with the chain hoist. While the VW weighs around 2000 pounds the Jeep weighs in at nearly three tons.

I removed the air charge upper hose. Oh by the way, the air cleaner box wouldn't budge until I read about it from the Lost Jeeps forum that it requires a hellofa good yank to free it from its rubber holders. Thanks Lost Jeeps. The coolant tank also needs to come out, and a couple cables get unclasped, all in all it was simple to get to the turbocharger. Once I had the air charger hose off I was able to get my finger into the air side of the turbine fins.What I felt wasn't good. The turbine was loose, wobbly loose, not free and easy loose.

After reading on Lost Jeeps about the frailty of the air charger hoses I was on the look out for rubber disintegration. Oh, I should explain what an Air Charger hose does for the folks in the dark. In the modern turbocharged engine air derived from the air filter, is sucked through the turbine, driven by the exhaust gas turbine which has the unwanted effect of heating the air, so it is blown through a special radiator called an Intercooler where the air is cooled before being injected into the engine.

(Turbo still in) Most everything with the Jeep diesel engine is logically designed, well at least so far I'm happy with what I have worked on, which includes replacing the timing belt. In the above photo the exhaust pipe is removed from the turbo, a process made so easy becasue of a well designed clamp and a flex pipe below, honestly I couldn't believe that it was off and completely out of the way as quickly as it was. The four nuts holding the turbo was just like any I've encountered before, a bit of Mechanic's contortionism and many many 1/16 turns with a box end wrench and off it came. For a brief moment after looking in the factory service manual (FSM) I thought maybe there were only three nuts, but no, there are four.

It says in the FSM that the splash shield under the engine needs to be removed to get to the oil return pipe bolts. I haven't been able to get one of the bolts off my Jeep's splash pan, so I didn't remove it. On the bright side I don't see how it would have helped. It really isn't in the way. The engine mount is in the way, but not the splash pan, at least not the type on my 2005 Jeep Liberty. Yep, those two eight millimeter bolts were a tight squeeze to reach. I tried a few things, extensions, swivel adapters, pneumatic ratchet, finally a stubby handle ratchet with a eight inch extension got them both.

(turbo-intake-side) Mopar parts lists the turbo for a whooping $1,595.00. From the image above you may be able to make out the damage to the aluminum housing where the turbine was rubbing, no doubt the noises I heard. Reed Patridge from http://turborepair.com says a cartridge can cost from $800 to $1300 depending on a lot of things not the least of which is that damage to the housing.

(turbo-bro-Jack) My brother helped and made me persevere. Besides the damage to the housing, the shaft is broken. Yeah, when I blow a turbo I leave nothing undamaged. Well that's not entirely true, I did shut off the engine and checked the oil, so no damage beyond the blown turbo. I trust Reed completely, I recommend his team after he went beyond the call of duty to locate a turbo for my Isuzu diesel a couple of years ago. Since I last spoke with him he has revamped is site and now focuses on racing as well as standard turbochargers. For us CRD lovers Reed has in stock a (large) selection of Garret turbocharger parts

(turbo-larger-exhaust-side) Once I had the turbo on the bench I noticed that the shaft wasn't connected from one side to the other.

(turbo-larger-intake-side) Variable geometry turbochargers, I had to look them up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-g ... rbocharger Pretty cool stuff if you ask me.

(turbo-part-number) 35242112G
LIBERTY CRD 2005 R2816K5 (VM) 160 2.8/4 D GT2056V 763360-0001 35242115F

Okay I'll give ya one odd ball picture from the yard this morning

April2012-elk Four or five bull elks were right outside our door prior to dawn. Unfortunately as I had the door open to take some pictures the dogs got out and scared the elk away.
Alrighty then, I gotta go finish irrigating the field
Brian Rodgers

fastring · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:16 am

Great write up, thanks for taking the time to share it. What was the mileage at each turbo opportunity? Are you considering one of the GDE replacement options?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:55 am

Hello Brian!

Firstly, I'm glad you did not attempt to run the jeep much after the turbo failed, however don't think that you are completely out of the woods yet on engine damage. I too experienced a shaft snapping on my turbo, and discovered the same thing that happened to you: The oil did not get put into the intake, it got put into the exhaust line.

The problem is that the oil feed for the turbo comes from the main gallery that also feeds the rod bearings and piston cooling jets. At idle on a warm engine, this gallery is ONLY reading about 18-20 psi, and that is when the turbo is providing a proper restriction to the oil flow. With the turbo broken, that can equate to a giant hole in the oil gallery, allowing critically needed pressure to escape rather than push oil to the pistons. Driving it for 2 blocks is not much different than what I did of coasting for slightly longer than 2 blocks. How low is your oil reading? That will be the first indicator of whether you did any more serious damage.

Now, about the turbo replacements. I'm sure some of the other members will chime in here, most notably a Hoosier CRD who knows a great many things about Garrett turbos, and they will say the same thing: Garrett does not rebuild these VNT turbos. Your friend might have lots of parts that are compatible, but they are NOT authorized by Garrett for rebuilding the VNT turbo that we have.

This is not to say that it cannot be done, I bought one of those rebuild bearing kits and tried it on a turbo that had started making scraping / whining sounds, and I believed that the rebuild was a success. Until I installed it. The turbo then made no odd noises while running, but when shutting the engine off, it makes a scraping sound. I pulled that turbo out of service and combined its VNT section and exhaust housing with the factory center cartridge (that did work) from another turbo which had a VNT problem. I now am driving on a functional FrankenTurbo, and I know full well that I am on my own as far as Garrett is concerned.

The prices you have found are not unusual for a complete turbo, IF you are foolish and only look at Mopar for supply. The cost for a replacement cartridge is ALSO too high, see the previous paragraph about Garrett NOT SELLING PARTS so I do not know where he sourced those center cartridges.

Want a BRAND-NEW Factory fresh Garrett turbo, complete? $1080. From Garrett. Go to your local Bosch diesel injection service shop, they will most likely also be a Garrett distributor, and can look the turbo up directly from the numbers on it, and tell you the ACTUAL price. Mopar is SCREWING THE OWNERS by charging a 100% markup just-because. The ACTUAL Mopar cost is $750. I know, because that is what I paid for that turbo with the VNT problem (had it from day one - factory defect) when I got it from a dealer friend of mine.

Obviously, I am not in favor of giving Mopar ANY more money, they have done NOTHING GOOD in their treatment of the CRD or the owners of that vehicle. Bosch shops and the Association of Diesel Servicers (ADS) members will take care of the hard stuff... We are on our own for the rest, which is where this forum comes in.

Boss · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:39 pm

Franken turbo. I like that, haha
I plan on shopping around today. the advice is much appreciated, For better or worse we don't have a grand lying around, so an impulse buy ain't gunna happen, sigh

Boss · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:54 pm

I forgot to mention, the oil on the dipstick went from normal to add a quart in a block, and it was dripping out of the muffler

Boss · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:05 pm

Quote:

$1080. From Garrett. Go to your local Bosch diesel injection service shop, they will most likely also be a Garrett distributor,

only problem is we live way out in the middle of nowhere, no businesses or dealers of any kind. I'm hoping for a Internet source for the turbo complete. Also are you suggesting the GDE Green Diesel Engineering has turbos? No you mean the chipsets right? yes I want the ecco tune set, but then again we do live in the middle of nowhere, with incomes to match the lack of people, it is a price worth paying and we're learning to live with little to no budget, cry cry

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:44 pm

GDE does have a very good stage II turbo but it's not cheap. $2,500 with the necessary turbo tune or somewhat less if you already have a GDE tune and Keith only builds the kit when he has enough orders. I got mine a couple of months ago and just recently installed it with geordi's able assistance; I have no clue if he still has any in stock. I also should mention that with this turbo if you have the stock torque convertor (not Euro or SunCoast) you WILL need to drive with a very light foot or upgrade your TC as any agressive throttle will produce virtually instant shudder (been there done that took like 100' under power)

Boss · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:57 pm

Quote:

GDE does have a very good stage II turbo but it's not cheap. $2,500 with the necessary turbo tune

Good to know, thanks for the info.
I just checked with a Denver Garret distributor http://www.centralmotivepower.com/ $1500 and change for the replacement, I should have asked them to let me sit down before he told me. :shock:

What was plan 'B" again?
:roll:

I'll be watching this thread closely in case someone has a cheaper source

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:53 pm

You might check with http://www.dfispdx.com/ ; http://idparts.com/catalog/index.php?fi ... ehicle=124 (they don't have them but they are trying to support CRDs and might be able to start looking); http://shop.midwestturboconnection.com/ ... ing_c3.htm ; http://oregonfuelinjection.com/

I have no idea whether any of these folks can help you out as these are just links I've saved from past forum conversations about CRD fuel systems including turbos and such.

irollgen4s · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:49 pm

what was the whining sound like? something for us to look out for :dizzy:

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:26 pm

Re: how it sounds (the whine)

If you've ever listened to the engines on a DC-10... that's gotta be real close! :ROTFL:

They've got this distinctive mechanical sound right along with the turbine-whistle and it always sounded like they were on the brink of failure (to me).

Boss · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:41 pm

Quote:

what was the whining sound like? something for us to look out for :dizzy:

Started whistling, sounded kind of neat at first. Sounded just like the turbo in the Isuzu TD before it blew. I didn't do anything about the turbo, because this has been the worst year of my life. Everything it seemed had gone wrong, I couldn't do anything, I was frozen with depressing events. I'm trying my best to keep my chin up and deal with it now that it blew.
Anyway, the turbo went from whistling to making a chirping noise.
Because of my financial situation I now have to consider an after market turbo. What do y'all think about those? Am I wasting my time? I should be able to buy the OEM turbo in about two weeks if nothing else comes up heavy bill wise.
Brian Rodgers

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:05 pm

This the place that I talked to, yes, they are in Florida, but then if you are looking in Denver, then it might be worth it to call Everglades:

http://www.evergladesdiesel.com/

They are great guys, and you can tell them that they found a turbo for me that was in Brazil, for $1080 last year. That was the price they quoted me to bring it in and sell to me over the counter, a complete unit. They should be willing to ship it to you for a few bucks more.

The thing you need to know about these: There aren't any "aftermarket' turbos as far as I am aware. Anything that is a Garrett turbo is either COMPLETELY NEW and with ZERO CORE CHARGE (Garrett doesn't want them back) or IT IS NOT A NEW TURBO FROM GARRETT.

Garrett does not rebuild these. Garrett does not authorize anyone else to rebuild these. Anyone (like Chrysler) that is charging a core charge for this turbo is pulling some kind of scam somewhere, and you do not want to buy from them, b/c you have no way of knowing whether the unit you get will be NEW... Or someone else's problem.

Yes, I took a chance and rebuilt mine, but I did that myself on my own vehicle, and went into it with my eyes open and fully understanding the risks. It didn't work. I know why Garrett doesn't rebuild these - The passages for the oil are TINY within this thing, and the tolerances are exceedingly small. The center cartridge needs to be able to spin at upwards of 100,000 RPM, so the tiniest amount of imbalance WILL CAUSE destructive vibrations, and the thing will eat itself. Add to that, our programmed speed (From Chrysler) is too close to the operational limits of the turbo they selected for our motors... And it becomes obvious why the turbos eat themselves on our CRDs. The solution to this is the GDE turbo and engine tune... But I understand your financial limitations - I have them too, or I would happily sell you my fully operational FrankenTurbo.

camo · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:05 pm

Hi, I have a used turbo in good condition that I bought back when I had 2 CRDs and was panicked about a blown turbo because of reviews like this :frankie:

Any way, 2nd CRD is sold and though my turbo might go bad (nothing last forever) I don't see any reason for it to happen as my CRD limited is really solid. That being said, if you are interested I'll let go the turbo for what I got it $550. let me know if your are interested, my wife and I got a baby on the way and some extra dough is on call right now.

Here is a thread where I first offer the turbo about a month ago. viewtopic.php?p=726014#p726014

Boss · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:08 pm

used turbo is a dream come true, yes yes. would you PM me your number and i will make arrangements
Brian Rodgers

camo · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:32 pm

I just PM you. let me know if you got it.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:58 am

Awesome Camo... This is what makes this group great.

I'm glad it looks like your CRD will be back on the road soon Brian.

Boss · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:40 am

Yes awesome, I can't wait. I miss my Jeep somethin aweful

Boss · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:20 pm

Quote:

Garrett does not rebuild these. Garrett does not authorize anyone else to rebuild these. Anyone (like Chrysler) that is charging a core charge for this turbo is pulling some kind of scam somewhere, and you do not want to buy from them, b/c you have no way of knowing whether the unit you get will be NEW... Or someone else's problem.

You are correct, I just received a message from the the turbo repair place saying Garret doesn't have replacement parts. Good thing Cammo was reading my thread

Boss · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:25 pm

one more note, a reader from biodiesel.infopop.cc he noted from one of the pics that the nut on the air side of the turbo was missing and i should look for it in the hoses and intercooler before reassembling

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