Loud tapping from top end

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:28 pm

Ok... The injectors have been dropped off at a Bosch shop for testing, the head has been dropped off at a head shop (heh) where they will do a vacuum / pressure test on the valves and see what they can see. They are also capable of fully inspecting the head for warping (it isn't) or cracking (also not) and generally work it over. I suspect either a mis-seated valve will be discovered, or a leaking injector... If nothing is found, I am out of ideas, so I hope one of these has an answer.

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Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:23 pm

Cool, cool and cool!

Here's hoping that the issue is readily resolved. :BINGO:

Hoosier CRD

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:44 pm

Got the word back about the injectors - one passed every test they had (not cylinder #3's injector), the other 3 each failed one test by a small margin, something having to do with pressure - one read at 800, another at 770 or so, the purpose of that reading I don't know.

They said that with those numbers, they wouldn't fail them out if they were a dealership's, and all were closing properly and not leaking, so they did not think there was any indications that the injectors were the source of the tapping sound.

So I'm back to suspecting the head... And waiting to hear from them.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:52 pm

"Got the word back about the injectors - one passed every test they had (not cylinder #3's injector), the other 3 each failed one test by a small margin, something having to do with pressure - one read at 800, another at 770 or so, the purpose of that reading I don't know."

So... bottom line is the injectors are on the border at worst and functional but not necessarily in need of replacement when all is said and done. Good news really. You have to know that there are several values that they look at when testing an injector on the stand. Many fail, especially with miles on them.

Speaking of miles, how many miles do you have on your tractor? Specifically, how many miles are on those injectors. I'm trying to get an idea of how long they last so I can start planning on when to replace mine.

Hoosier CRD

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:52 pm

The injectors have 137k on them, I am reasonably certain these are the injectors that came with the replacement engine, which was also at about 60k when mine died at 60k. The injector shop said they performed fine, and there wouldn't be any real benefit to working them over to change such a small value. They also said the nozzles were spraying just fine, no evidence of clogging or wear from bad fuel. I would suspect they will continue to last for quite some time.

I got the word back on the head too - Totally flat (ok, I knew that, my CRD has never overheated with either engine) and they said that it held the vacuum JUST FINE on the valves. Their gauge stops at 8, and "good" generally reads about 7-7.5, OK around 6, where bad would be below 6.... My valves? Pegged the needle at 8. They also said that it looked like there might have been some minor "peppering" on the underside of the cylinder areas, possibly caused by some carbon or a bit of metal that had been banging around in the chamber. They said they could resurface the head, but they would have to remove all the valves. I declined for now, maybe I will do it when I actually see what they are talking about, but it didn't look that bad to me when I wrapped the thing up for them.

Bugger. Now I don't know what is wrong again.

Good news: There appears to be a gentleman in Germany that works for Elring, selling parts to the aftermarket. I will be talking to him tomorrow, hopefully able to order the head gasket separately and not have to waste money on the bolts.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:09 pm

You suppose the peppering is from a glow-plug tip?

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:04 pm

I would agree with you except for one thing: All the ceramic glow plugs that I have (except one) are fully intact, and the one that was broken was found OUTSIDE the engine in the box of loose parts. I don't know where the other 3 were (since I only had a total of 5 good loose ceramics) so MAYBE the answer is that one of my plugs broke way back when on the old engine (Or was shattered when the #1 cylinder broke up?) and replaced by the mechanic... The rest were left in place until I removed them for the metal plugs. But that still means that my parts box should have 2 more plugs, broken or otherwise - The new engine came with them, and how did I end up with FIVE good ones? The math doesn't work, I'm missing something somewhere.

I don't know. I'll know more when I see which cylinder has the "peppering" they are talking about. If it is the #1... Well, I know then which head I have in use - my original that survived the engine disaster. Either way, the peppering must not be that bad, if the head has been in fine service this long without any performance problems up until this tapping started.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:16 am

OK... My wallet is in some serious pain here.

The injectors: 3 of them failed slightly-below-spec on the total amount they are supposed to flow. They suggested some fuel treatments might help that (although they said they DID run pressurized Stanadyne cleaner through them while testing) That little adventure was $180. Oof.

The head looks great ( haven't flipped it yet to look at the cylinder surface) and for $65, they are a fantastic value, because they also looked at the lifters and may have found a possible cause:

The lifters cannot be compressed by hand. The guy at the shop took one and since he immediately recognized it as a hydraulic lifter (although they were saying "never seen this design before" a lot about the head AND the lifters)... Put it into his shop vise and squeezed it - It bled out oil, then it was capable of being worked by fingers to compress and release.

Thoughts? Should I look at replacing all the lifters, even though none of the roller arms or rollers show anything unusual? I asked about cleaning them out with spray, they said that would be a bad idea. I can't figure any way to take them apart anyway, not that I want to... BUT I am thinking right now to compress each one and get it at least flexing. Is this even worth trying? It would seem that the oil can come out either through the top of the lifter or back out the side hole where it entered from... But there is a LOT of pressure in these things that has to release itself as you are tightening the vise. According to the shop guy, they should "pump themselves back up" when the oil hits them, but he said that if they didn't... Then that COULD be a source of the knock I heard.

But why would it register as a misfire? Maybe holding the valve slightly open because it was stuck in the fully-extended position? ALL these things seem to want to settle in the fully-extended position, even after I have compressed them and driven the oil out, but before compressing them, they can't be moved without the vise.

Right now I'm debating dropping another $400 on lifters and rockers... What does the group think?

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:13 am

If the lifter is jammed or movement is restrained, then for sure there will be a problem with valves not opening or closing.

The lifter issue you're having is not new to this forum.

Other members have experienced the same thing and posted pictures after dissassembling them. They experienced limited movement and one member took them apart, cleaned the junk out and reassembled them.

I have always thought that the cause might have been lack of proper oil change intervals, but knowing how well Geordi maintains his CRD and how often he changes his oil, I would say that this isn't the case here. (3000 mile oil change intervals)

What could be the cause of the lifters retaining the oil and junk inside them?

I am sure that the designers of the lifters considered this, so could the additional pressure from the oil built up be part of the design. I doubt it.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:01 am

geordi wrote:

OK... My wallet is in some serious pain here.

The injectors: 3 of them failed slightly-below-spec on the total amount they are supposed to flow. They suggested some fuel treatments might help that (although they said they DID run pressurized Stanadyne cleaner through them while testing) That little adventure was $180. Oof.

The lifters cannot be compressed by hand. The guy at the shop took one and since he immediately recognized it as a hydraulic lifter (although they were saying "never seen this design before" a lot about the head AND the lifters)... Put it into his shop vise and squeezed it - It bled out oil, then it was capable of being worked by fingers to compress and release.

Thoughts? Should I look at replacing all the lifters, even though none of the roller arms or rollers show anything unusual? I asked about cleaning them out with spray, they said that would be a bad idea. I can't figure any way to take them apart anyway, not that I want to... BUT I am thinking right now to compress each one and get it at least flexing. Is this even worth trying? It would seem that the oil can come out either through the top of the lifter or back out the side hole where it entered from... But there is a LOT of pressure in these things that has to release itself as you are tightening the vise. According to the shop guy, they should "pump themselves back up" when the oil hits them, but he said that if they didn't... Then that COULD be a source of the knock I heard.

But why would it register as a misfire? Maybe holding the valve slightly open because it was stuck in the fully-extended position? ALL these things seem to want to settle in the fully-extended position, even after I have compressed them and driven the oil out, but before compressing them, they can't be moved without the vise.

Right now I'm debating dropping another $400 on lifters and rockers... What does the group think?

I admit that I do not know anything about the lifters on our tractor. My first thought is though would be to look at the #3 units and see what they are like after the oil goes away. When drained, are they all the same movement-wise? Compare them to lifters from the other cylinders.

Even with good oil and frequent changes, is it possible that some amount of slag could have gotten in and not gotten out? I don't know how well the oil circulates through the lifters.

Slow and steady to find it if you don't want to replace them all, which I can't blame you.

BTW, regarding the injectors, Stanadyne Lubricity Formula (purple label) will improve the injector activity; 16 ounces treats 125 gallons. I combine with Performance Formula (blue label). Others use other things, like 2-cycle oil and transmission fluid; it's your choice of course. The testing fee of $180 ($45/each) is about right. My shop charges approx. $52 each.

FWIW,

Hoosier CRD

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:34 am

I haven't had a chance to go digging for the lifter cleaning thread yet, work has gotten silly again (a good thing) but the reason why I was trying the Rislone and the 3k oil changes was to prevent the lifters from clogging. Nice to know THAT was pointless... Pulling the valve cover is enough of a pain that I think I might just replace them all rather than test a cleaning... BUT I will compress and clean them in case someone else needs them.

Such a great design, this engine is. How can this be a 500k mile engine with design choices like this?

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:55 am

I still think you should go with the ARP studs since the old ones can't be reused, don't miss the opportunity if you plan to keep the jeep.

With the amount of money you have spent on this thing through the years, you probably could have invested in a UNIMOG and modified it for street use. That thing will pull a tank out of swamp mud.

Hydraulic Jack · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:04 pm

If I read the other post correctly these are the right ARP studs and this is the cheapest place I found them....HJ

http://www.kermatdi.com/servlet/the-489 ... for/Detail

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:45 pm

I'm not reusing the old bolts, I am getting new by force from the dealer... ARP also says the real benefit of studs is in the ability to be reused, not that it increases clamping force. As I'm hoping to never open it up again, the bolts will be ok, the clamping force of the studs would only match stock anyway.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:14 am

Soak the lifters in solvent overnight and work the crud out using the vise, reuse the lifters.

Forcing you?

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:50 am

Diesel Fuel is a great solvent for dunking the lifters, so is Mineral Spirits.

Hoosier CRD

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:47 pm

Hoosier and Racer, thanks for the support and the idea - I know that diesel is a great solvent (biodiesel even more so) but had forgotten it in the insanity of this week and this problem.

I have all the lifters in a pint or so of diesel right now, and before I even finished pouring the diesel over them, the fuel was turning dark from washing the crud out. Some gentle agitation, and the fuel is completely opaque. I'll let it sit for an hour or three, then change the fuel covering them and slosh it around some more.

Racer: I say I have been "forced" to buy the stretch bolts because the dealer was unable to order just the gasket, even while having the individual part number. The system forces you into spending $212 (my price) on the "kit" with everything.

I appreciate the sentiment about doing the studs if I am planning to keep the CRD... That has not been determined yet, I am still at the "get it running again" phase before I decide whether to keep it or not. The reality is that I have experienced many of the design flaws that VM specifically is responsible for, and although I would love to blame Chrysler for changing a working design... The failure of the lifters is solely on VM. This is a bad design. Had I recognized that the lifters were the source of my problem (and they are ALL stuck in the fully-extended position without extreme help to compress them) I would never have loosened the head in the first place. I don't plan to ever do it again either.

According to Jason at ARP (Yea, I got right to him on the phone) the main advantage to the studs is being able to re-use the studs when you remove the head another time. The second benefit is that they retain their ductility (ability to stretch and return to original) under load better than the stretch bolts... And would be an upgrade IF said bolts had weakened from excessive cylinder pressure and allowed a head gasket leak. Since I have not had a gasket leak, the studs would only be matching stock performance for my application. He also expressed concern about the diameter of the selected studs, that they narrowed between the ends, such that torquing them much beyond 125 ft-lbs or 75% of yield would put them very close to their own ductile limit, where they might do the same as the stretch bolts - stretch too far under cylinder pressure, and not retract - gasket leak.

I've completed the research on the studs, it is up to someone else to progress to the experimentation phase for them. I just want my CRD running again before I decide whether I'm even going to keep it. I have YET to have more than 60k miles pass by without a major engine teardown... This is not something indicative of a 500,000 mile engine. I have heard noises that the London Black Cabs use these engines. I do not know this for certain, but honestly - Can you imagine any fleet manager approving of the use of something that has to be repaired as often as these do, for critical design flaws? Taxi service is constant low-speed start and stop abuse of an engine. Lets review the design flaws and their results, hmm?

Turbo overspeeds (with strictly stock programming) and fails - 20 seconds or so to discover the problem / oil leaking... Or the engine is destroyed.
Turbo oil passages are exceedingly small, possibly leading to insufficient oil cooling flow and turbo failure - see previous result (happened to me)
Oil pan threads are far too small and weak - frequently improperly torqued, could lead to loss of oil plug and less than 10 seconds to engine destroyed. - This would be a HUGE problem for a fleet manager, as they would be wanting to service the vehicles quickly and often, increasing the chances that someone will screw up the plug.
Timing design involves critical placement of small non-torque-bearing keys, which then must survive some torque application (even with the proper cam tool in use) or timing will be incorrect... Leading to destruction of rocker arms and engine teardown. Cams are not keyed even though proper belt position CAN BE MAINTAINED if they were, as the belt tooth count is a non-variable. (happened to many)
Lifters are hydraulic oil-supplied, with exceedingly small passages. Filth build-up leads to lifter jamming, and attendent rocker arm damage from stuck-open valve being impacted by piston. (Has now happened to me as well as others)
Head gasket leaks / overheating / insufficient coolant flow / overly complicated thermostat design... All leading to engine destroyed if not caught in time with a major teardown.

This design just does not seem to be worthy of a 500,000 mile lifespan without continual major repairs. Everyone here knows that while I might ask my CRD to do things that are at the upper end of its ratings, I have not exceeded the capabilities of my Jeep at any time. I have also taken great pains to maintain it BETTER than the specs require, to try and prevent design flaws from endangering the simple availability of the CRD as a form of transportation to my work locations. Carrying around my fat arse is its primary duty, towing comprises far less than 5% of the total miles I have put on it. It has not succeeded at its primary role.

I come back to something Keith said: He has worked for 15+ years with VM, as well as Detroit Diesel, VW, Mercedes, and possibly he said the other big names of Ford and Cummins... All with their diesels. What he said was out of all the diesel engine designs he has worked with, the VM engineers are THE WORST he has ever worked with. He owns a CRD, and what does he choose to drive, with experience like his? A 2006 Jetta TDI.

The Italians have incredible skills at producing gorgeous women. Their engineering? Not so much.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:00 pm

Did you contact Erling for a price on a head gasket?

http://www.elring.de/en/02en/09_spezialanfertig.php

I would still consider using the ARP studs.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:40 pm

I have attempted contacting them, the person a buyer would need to speak with is a Mr Joachim Goetz, and he is located in Germany. All their part sales are now handled through Germany, but I have not been able to get in contact with that gentleman. I also got the distinct impression that they only want to sell to companies, which might explain why I have not gotten any reply from Mr Goetz.

I understand your position Racer, but don't forget - I have not had any head gasket issues between two different motors. I put a ton of money into my VW Jetta chasing a problem that ended up being in the injection pump. If I had the knowledge about engine work and timing belts that I have now, I wouldn't have had an issue pulling the pump at the first sign of a problem that might be fuel related. As it was, I paid someone to R&R the pump and set the timing (a local forum guru similar to what I have become with these) and have no regrets about his services.

I then sold the vehicle because of an irrational fear based on comments on that forum about the complete lack of reliability of the auto transmission, while not bothering to learn several critical things ABOUT the transmission:

1: It only fails if you are not diligent in changing the transmission fluid. VW fills it with a "lifetime" fluid and no dipstick. Owners stupidly believe this means it needs no service... And don't, until it eats itself.
2: The transmission weakness (yes, there is one) is in the valve body, and that develops cracks which allow the fluid pressure to leak back to the pan, causing gradually escalating slow engagement of the reverse and drive gears. If ignored, this will cause excessive wear of the clutch plates and kill the transmission. It takes a LONG TIME for this to happen.
3: Replacement of the transmission is something big and scary and costs $6000. (BULL-PUCKY! That is only true if you ignore the warning signs and don't replace the valve body with a $300 kit, AND you are dumb enough to go to a dealer for the transmission. Complete units are available from boneyards for much less, and are not that hard to install.)

I hate the idea of putting all this work and money into the CRD right now, only to sell it again... But unlike the VW, I am not selling it based on an irrational fear of a potential problem. I now have a MUCH better idea of the litany of design problems with this vehicle, and for me personally, I do not believe it fits in with my life anymore. I don't need a project vehicle or a toy that only gets used occasionally... I need a vehicle ready to work as hard as I do, WHEN I do.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:46 pm

pictures of the caked lifters would be good

Loud tapping from top end

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