Loud tapping from top end

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:42 pm

I'd love to... But I haven't figured out how to open them without damaging them, and simply squeezing them in the vise seems to have made them un-stuck.

The diesel bath has now been 2-3 cycles, and they are all moving smoothly, I can compress them fully with just my fingers where the vise took a LOT of force to compress them, even after the first bath in diesel. It would seem like there are 2 distinct chambers according to the breakout image that TurboBill posted here:

viewtopic.php?p=715623#p715623

I did not disassemble any of mine, b/c the one that I was messing with, I couldn't get the crimp top to release without more fight than I wanted to give it. I don't want to damage it. Cranking down on them with the vise, several of them (after a wash in diesel) "popped" through the top hole like they were releasing some pressure, but it still took a fair bit of effort to compress them the first time. Once compressed, they all worked easily with just my fingers. It would appear that the entry hole on the side (which fills them from the oil gallery running along side the lifter holes) allows the oil into the side of the top section, rather than injecting the oil below the lower piston. I don't know if there is a hole between the top section and the bottom section to allow oil into the spring, BUT when I compressed several lifters in the ziplock bags I had stored them in, they ejected oil from both holes. After a swim in diesel, none of them ejected anything through the side hole, which makes me suspect that the side holes drained easily, but everything holding them stuck was between the two piston halves.

I may have to sacrifice one of my extra lifters to really getting that crimp top off so I can see inside where TurboBill's image doesn't show. As it sits right now, I'm of the opinion that I can re-use these lifters, they are all working smoothly now.

jw5714 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:19 pm **Posts:** 8

Hello all. Love this forum!
I am new to the jeep world (05 CRD w/200k) ebay purchase fully knowing of the "miss".

I am having a similiar issue. Best described as a loud tap or light knock on a cylinder with a very light but noticable puff back out the intake.
It still ran ok smooth idle, plenty of power, and no excessive smoke. Just sounds awful.

Codes
P0210 Injector Circuit Malfunction Cylinder 10
P1641 Fuel Pump Primary Circuit Failure
P0230 Fuel Pump Primary Circuit Malfunction
P0420 1/1 Catalytic Converter Efficiency
P0330 Knock Sensor # 2 Circuit
P0220 Throttle / Petal Position Sensor / Switch 13 Circuit Malfunction
P0120 Mass Air Flow Sensor Circuit Low / Short to Ground
P0299 Low boost
P0240 Turbo Charge Boost Sensor B Circuit Range / Performance
P1266 Glow plug #4 control circuit open

I did a compresion test and getting about 400psi on all 4.
Got the tb kit and was hoping it jump a tooth, but all 3 pins line up.

Is there something else I could check before tearing it down farther? (with limited funding)

Update: spoke with Keith he recommended checking out the rockers due to the miles. Found bad exhaust rockers #4, 1st roller & bearing completely gone / 2nd roller locked up and pushed/wore down. exhaust was pushed back through the intake.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:39 pm

Cylinder 10?! No wonder they have so much torque... :-)r

I think you should clear the codes and see what pops up.. this looks like an electrical / ECM issue. Maybe from a battery failure or disconnect.. bad connector, shorted wires, etc.

It's hard to diagnose the true problem with nonsense codes, so I'd tackle that problem first?

Mark

jw5714 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:19 pm **Posts:** 8

yep, It's a beast.
I'll get it back together and see what it gives me.

Thanks mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:21 pm

Geordie sorry to hear about your new grief. Our lifters only serve as pivot points for the rocker. They remain stationary in thier ports. They are hydrolic only to reduce engine noise. The ports in the litters are very small so are easily blocked. Even having them full of clean oil will make them very difficult to compress. If squeezing them in a vice frees them up then they should be fine. If a lifter were compressed such that it was not as long as it should be then you would have the tapping noise and no damage But not sure how high boost pressure would be caused. I would spin the engine with a drill and see if you have tapping without the head installed. The boost pressure is certainly the clue.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:39 pm

Sadly, no the high boost code doesn't mean anything to this. I've had that before, it has to do with the turbo and the vacuum controller. The turbo sometimes is allowed to boost up to 20/21 psi, where the computer spazzes out and tosses that code. On the last turbo with the VNT problem, it would actually spike to 26psi sometimes. THAT is overboosting and certainly a huge problem. Building slowly isn't as big an issue, and 21psi shouldn't be outside the usable range for actual WOT.

It may also have to do with the vacuum line not properly releasing the pressure, but this thing goes into limp mode basically every time I try to do a WOT run - every time. That wasn't unexpected.

The springs in the lifters are used to take up the valve lash, so if they get stuck in the up position like mine were, then that would possibly hold the valve open just a bit longer than it should, leading to the possibility of combustion entering the intake when the valves go to swap positions... Maybe. I don't know, they are the only part left in this setup, everything else has been checked.

They are all cleaned now and compressing easily, and I have no idea which is which anymore... So if the misfire is still present but in a different cylinder, then I will know for certain that it is the lifters. If it is still present but on #3... I might just shoot the thing.

turbobill · **Posted:** Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:38 pm

OK, then let me share my thoughts on the lifters and see if it makes any sense. Yes the lifters being hydraulic will take up valve lash but the rockers are not rockers. The cam pushes the middle of the valve actuator not the end of the rocker. Our cam followers that actuate the valves move up and down on the lifter that is positioned at one end of the rocker, something like this
..........................................O Cam position.........................................
.....................Valve\/¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯/\Lifter.....................................

Geordi, I know you are intimately familiar with this setup but I added the detail for others watching the post. There is an oil port in each of the lifter wells and a port in the bottom and top of the lifters. Pressure from the engine (oil pressure) forces oil in the bottom of the lifter and tries to push the top of the lifter up. The cam rides the middle of the cam follower and compresses the valve when the cam lobe rotates and pushed the follower down, pivoting the follower off of the lifter positioned at one end of the follower, making the valves lash self adjusting. The lifter can not be overextended because it is held in position by the cam follower which is pinned in position by the cam and valve springs. Also in your particular case if there had been a lifter forcing a valve to remain open then you would have easily seen the results, as deeply as you have gone into your engine.

Because there is pressure put on a lifter each time the cam rotates, enough pressure to fully open the valve, there may be a chance that a lifter could be compressed the small amount they will compress and not fully extend to take up the valve lash, creating a tapping noise. I believe this is also unlikely. From what I have seen the most logical mode of operation is that when new lifters, or clean lifters that are empty of oil, are first actuated, they fill up with oil quickly, adjust the valve lash out and then are pretty much stable after that, since even a clean lifter that is full of oil takes a great deal of pressure to compress because of the very small ports in the lifters.

When I rebuilt my head I had broken 3 rockers and 5 lifters (either a lifter housing or a rocker broke but not together) on the intake side of my engine. That side was out of time 1 tooth. I did not use new lifters but replaced the broken ones with used lifters and since I did not know the history of the used lifters I set about cleaning them all. I took them apart to do so because I was not astute enough to put them in a vise to compress them. The crimp tops on the lifters provide about zero structural strength to the lifters coming apart, they are held together in the engine by the pressure of the cam follower on them created by the cam and valve springs.

I am absolutely sure that if a lifter is used long enough and the engine not properly cared for that they can fail in some way, but at 100,000 miles I could not detect anything more than minor staining on the lifters I removed and replaced in my engine. I did not find any gunk in the lifters, but I know for sure my engine was not well taken care of the last 20K miles are so. Cleaning was accomplished by straying carb cleaner through the ports of the disassembled lifters and everything was bright and shinny and went smoothly back together.I did put the crimp tops back on my lifters but that was more to facilitate the re-installation of the lifter/cam follower hardware in the engine. If it had not been such a pain to get the came followers into position and remount the cam housing I would have left the crimp tops off.

Geordi, if you don't have the engine back together yet (head installed) I would still spin the engine with a drill motor and see if everything turns smoothly. Spin the cams individually in their housing for the same purpose, then put it back together and and try it again with the glow plugs and fuel injectors removed. I am not sure you will hear tapping over all the blowing and sucking that would be going on but it is worth a shot unless someone else has tried with with poor results.

You have a mystery tap. Again, I know you know everything I annotated about the valve/lifter/cam follower set up but I gave the detail for others reading the post.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:18 pm

Excess detail is never a bad thing, the theory of operation on these is something that I didn't have a full picture of, so that was helpful.

My problem is that I didn't see any lifters that were already squashed, and all of them were a bugger to try and compress. The fills-up-and-stays-up theory makes some sense... But it still doesn't explain the tapping and the misfire code. At this point, everything has checked out perfectly, and yes I have spun the engine a few times (not with a drill) and it has turned over quite easily and smoothly. There isn't any evidence of ANYTHING out of proper alignment, which of course doesn't help me one bit.

I will be starting the reassembly tomorrow, all the gaskets came in today and I have a shiny new 2' torque wrench to apply gorilla force to the head bolts. Next thing to discover is the idiot-speak they used in the manual for tightening the head bolts. Are they saying tighten to a torque spec... Then step 2, tighten by rotational degrees, same in step 3? Or are they actually saying torque spec... Then 75 lbs of additional torque... Then yet again another 50 lbs?

Its like the manual was written in Italian, translated to Chinese, then barely translated to English.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:37 pm

Keith of GDE just addressed the issue of the torque procedure the other day. From the sounds of it you may want an even bigger wrench and help from a friend.

viewtopic.php?p=749162#p749162

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geordi · **Posted:** Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:08 pm

I broke them all loose using a 2' breaker, I wanted to get a bigger torque wrench just in case Keith had some actual torque numbers for these things. I think using such random degree measurements is retarded - Without a protractor, nobody can accurately gauge 50 degrees or 75 degrees. I hate stretch bolts with a passion. As for needing a 5' breaker... They should work out more.

I know that with just a normal 1' bar, I'm able to pull down 120 lb-ft reasonably easily. I'm more concerned about twisting the SOCKET off on these things, they are only 10mm bolt heads! I may have to go get a better socket tomorrow, the breaker bar and this torque wrench are both 1/2" drive, my 10mm socket is 3/8" so I need a reducer. I've twisted the box off of 3/8" reducers before with just the 2' bar and my arms. I might not be a gorilla, but I am stronger than I look.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:13 am

You might pick up an impact socket for the job, they're quite tough.

I'd look for the 1/2" drive - I'd be concerned about snapping a 3/8" one.

Harbor Freight has them at a very reasonable price..

FYI

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:37 am

Based on the updated instructions from GDE, after the initial snugging to the head, some of the bolts are turned 75° on the first angle torque and while the remainder are turned 50°. Once all that is complete, all are turned an additional 75°. ...if I interpreted the instructions correctly. In which case this means that the bolts are turned either a total of 150° or 125° in the process...both values being less than "half a turn" which is 180°.

If it wasn't for the added expense, it would seem that the ARP studs would be more convenient as one torque them to some ft•lb value.

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kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:43 am

If you don't already have one you may want to consider one of these.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/access ... ier=141510

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geordi · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:15 am

kdlewis1975 wrote:

If you don't already have one you may want to consider one of these.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/access ... ier=141510

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I don't have one of those... But I think I'll be getting one! That looks like just the thing to do this properly.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:15 pm

That angle gauge is chinese crap - every time I put any torque on the socket, the PLASTIC gauge backing would warp against the holding-stem and distort the reading. Luckily, the shotgun bore cleaner kit that I had gotten in Wal-Mart had 2 extension rods that were exactly the right diameter for the holding-stem hole. Used those against anything solid and convenient, and I have now gotten the head torqued down in perfect accordance with the service manual's directions.

As an added gift to the forum, I determined approximate torque values at the same time. I must say, I am quite surprised at the final torque numbers that were in agreement with the angle gauge.

Initial torque on all bolts: 22 ft-lbs, just to start the process. THE 2006 FSM BOOK DOES NOT HAVE THIS INFORMATION.
Second step, all CENTER bolts get an added (from the 22-ft-lb initial) 75 degrees of turn, which puts them right at an average of 66 ft-lbs.
Third step, all OUTSIDE bolts get an added (from the 22-ft-lb initial) 50 degrees of turn, which seemed to be about 55 ft-lbs. This one was less conclusive for me, but I was having issues with the gauge too.
Fourth step, ALL BOLTS get a final 75 degree turn, which puts them at just about 105 lb-ft of torque.

I have a call in to Keith at the moment for some final clarification on this... Because that seems awfully low to me. That is perfectly according to the book however, with the only variation being that stupid angle gauge. To compensate for any silliness on that gauge, I aimed for even numbers and used 80 degrees for the turns, so I might be just a touch strong, but certainly nowhere near the force I needed to put down to get the old ones OUT. The only thing I can think is that the mechanic who replaced my engine did stupid things there too, and massively over-torqued the bolts. I have no idea, but I certainly hope the blasted thing runs properly after all this work.

The turbo is back on, the thermostat is back in... Now it is down to the lifters and the top end. IT WILL RUN TODAY.

jkbkwarner · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:43 pm

My fingers are crossed for you Geordi. 1) I hope your Jeep is back to "normal." 2) I hope you stay a CRD owner (selfish of me, hoping you'll continue to be an expert contributor to the CRD portion of the forum), and 3) Put some healthy miles on it before you decide to part with it. Who knows you might come to get some good vibes about keeping it :roll:

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:42 pm

Don't worry about my continuing to be a resource (and a warning to others) about these things here... I have the knowledge, and I want to save others from the headaches that this thing has visited upon me. I don't see myself remaining a Jeep owner much longer however. I might shoot it first, which will certainly be ruled a case of self defense.

FYI: It is running as I said I would get it... And it continues to merrily bang away and smoke like a train. The smoke might be from a liberal amount of oil that I spread around the top of the head while assembling the lifters, but the banging is still loud as ever. It does seem to have moved forward, which partly tracks with the only thing I know that I did: The 4 rockers from cylinder #3 are now on cylinder #1. Unfortunately, the computer has decided to NOT be helpful and throw a misfire code... So I'm on my own again. None of the lifters are identifiable, and they were separated and scrambled when I was cleaning them, but I left the rockers in their numbered bags. The problem is - I can't find anything wrong with the dang rockers! Obviously SOMETHING is, so I have an email out to the UK supplier, and I will just bite the bullet and get a full set. I'm SO over this thing, you have no idea.

As I said before, I'm not opening the head bolts again - the problem is not below the lifter area, so there is no need to. The bottom of the engine rotates smooth, so this has to be on the top end somewhere. The only thing left are the stupid rockers and lifters. As always, if anyone has a differing opinion, I'd love to hear about it. I certainly don't have a clue WTF is wrong with this thing, I can only eliminate the stuff I know IS working.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:52 pm

I am still leaning towards an injector issue, but you can rule that out by swapping injectors among cylinders. I would think that if it were a lifter, removing the oil cap while it is running would prove this as the noise would become more evident? Just a thought...

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:15 pm

You might have missed where I said this before - All the injectors were tested by a Bosch shop, and they said they all passed every test except one - Three of them were slightly below spec on how much fuel they passed. They were all properly opening and closing without issue, working perfectly in that regard.

As an added test, I used the computer to disable each injector in turn - No change to the noise, just the motor running like crap with only 3 injectors firing.

I wish this was as simple as an injector issue - I have 4 spares of those.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:10 pm

After mentioning your plight to my wife, she suggested that your engine may be trying to speak in Morse code. :wink:

...sorry your still having issues.

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Loud tapping from top end

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