Loud tapping from top end

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:17 pm

geordi wrote:

You might have missed where I said this before - All the injectors were tested by a Bosch shop, and they said they all passed every test except one - Three of them were slightly below spec on how much fuel they passed. They were all properly opening and closing without issue, working perfectly in that regard.

As an added test, I used the computer to disable each injector in turn - No change to the noise, just the motor running like crap with only 3 injectors firing.

I wish this was as simple as an injector issue - I have 4 spares of those.

Well there goes that idea.

How about pulling the oil cap while running? Was the noise more pronounced? That would indicate the lifters or rockers (I am assuming you checked the rocker arms too?)
I feel your pain. I recently got out of Volvo D24 diesels, though much simpler, because of frustrations. I sold my last one to buy the CRD back. Do I regret it? Yes and no. No in that I got my Jeep back, which I really enjoy.
Hang in there...

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:38 am

A mechanics stethoscope works best:
http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-52500-Mecha ... tethoscope

fastRob · **Posted:** Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:28 pm

Geordi,
Any chance the prob is in the turbo?
So sorry to hear your problems.
Thinking of dumping mine as well, you are not alone friend.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:01 pm

I wish it was as simple to diagnose as the turbo. No, the noise is without question coming from the top end. No change in volume when I open the oil cap, but that doesn't exactly mean anything - the oil cap connects to the intake side, the valve cover is basically sealed in the middle because of the injectors, so the tapping could be from the exhaust side now. What annoys the hell out of me is that there wasn't ANYTHING obvious about the rocker arms, but since I cleaned all the lifters and they all seemed to be compressing easily... It has to be a rocker.

I may get bored tomorrow and decide to pull the top again, hopefully I see something more conclusive if I do. No reply (or pending charge) from the place in England yet, so I guess I will need to call them on Monday to find out why they haven't charged my card and shipped the rockers yet.

As for selling it, I'm not looking to profit from this vehicle, just to replace it. I've found what I want (mostly) locally for a good price, so I should be able to sell the Jeep for just the KBB price and be able to clear my loan and replace it with the other car. I'll never get back all the money I've put into this thing. This little adventure is working out to be right at $1000, which puts my total repairs on the CRD close to $13,000 in 5 years of ownership. People will accuse me of abusing my Jeep, and that is why it has been so expensive. I disagree.

Everyone knows my previous vehicle was a 2001 Jetta TDI. What people don't know is how I drove that, and what I had to put into it or what broke.

I was younger, and I drove it like a go-kart. I beat the snot out of that car, foot-to-the-floor constantly. I didn't change the oil on schedule (although I always did use the same Mobil 1 TDT). I brewed my own biodiesel, and plugged the fuel filter a couple times. I ran it out of diesel once. I ran old construction company red fuel in it (off road, of course). I plugged the in-tank fuel filter with sludgy biodiesel, and had to clean the tank out with a shop vac. Ruined the vacuum. I had a high pressure injector line break at the fuel pump (IIRC, it was the #2) and drove it 800 miles at highway speeds with the engine being sprayed with diesel mist. When I got to my destination, I opened the hood and drained a full GALLON of diesel from the under-hood engine blanket.

Other than the fuel line, what broke on that TDI in 150,000 miles of flogging? Nothing. I didn't have a bad glow plug, I didn't have any transmission failures... I had a fuel pump problem, but the Bosch shop said that was due to the US change from "low sulfur" to the ULSD fuel which rotted a seal inside the pump. They had been getting a few of them, so it wasn't a particular issue for just me.

I haven't had 60,000 miles continuously on this jeep without a major teardown, and everyone here knows how crazy I am about maintenance, and doing it MORE than required. The results of good maintenance are not pleasing.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:22 pm

geordi wrote:

I may get bored tomorrow and decide to pull the top again, hopefully I see something more conclusive if I do. No reply (or pending charge) from the place in England yet, so I guess I will need to call them on Monday to find out why they haven't charged my card and shipped the rockers yet.

Who did you use? If it is who I think it may be, I am not thrilled with them. I was trying get some info on who makes the rockers/lifters that the sell on ebay, and the guy was pretty rude and not helpful at all. I explained that I was planning to make a bulk order since I am trying to get the CRD parts onto my website since we are branching out from Volvo parts. His loss. I won't sell a part that is garbage or of unknown origin or quality. Getting back to your rocker issue, is there any way they could be checked/tested?

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:34 pm

MRausch82 wrote:

geordi wrote:

I may get bored tomorrow and decide to pull the top again, hopefully I see something more conclusive if I do. No reply (or pending charge) from the place in England yet, so I guess I will need to call them on Monday to find out why they haven't charged my card and shipped the rockers yet.

Who did you use? If it is who I think it may be, I am not thrilled with them. I was trying get some info on who makes the rockers/lifters that the sell on ebay, and the guy was pretty rude and not helpful at all. I explained that I was planning to make a bulk order since I am trying to get the CRD parts onto my website since we are branching out from Volvo parts. His loss. I won't sell a part that is garbage or of unknown origin or quality. Getting back to your rocker issue, is there any way they could be checked/tested?

Sorry, I was editing my previous post when you typed this. The parts appear to be genuine VM components, and the name of the vendor is "VM Specialist" with a website of http://www.vmdieselspecialist.com/

Is that the same one you used? The person I was emailing with said they would be putting the charge in on Friday (when I got in touch with them EARLY on Thursday, so that didn't please me) yet nothing has happened. I am not impressed, but I don't have a lot of options for that price. $22/each is a helll of a lot better than the $68 each (Even shop rate!) that the stealer wanted.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:43 pm

geordi wrote:

MRausch82 wrote:

geordi wrote:

I may get bored tomorrow and decide to pull the top again, hopefully I see something more conclusive if I do. No reply (or pending charge) from the place in England yet, so I guess I will need to call them on Monday to find out why they haven't charged my card and shipped the rockers yet.

Who did you use? If it is who I think it may be, I am not thrilled with them. I was trying get some info on who makes the rockers/lifters that the sell on ebay, and the guy was pretty rude and not helpful at all. I explained that I was planning to make a bulk order since I am trying to get the CRD parts onto my website since we are branching out from Volvo parts. His loss. I won't sell a part that is garbage or of unknown origin or quality. Getting back to your rocker issue, is there any way they could be checked/tested?

Sorry, I was editing my previous post when you typed this. The parts appear to be genuine VM components, and the name of the vendor is "VM Specialist" with a website of http://www.vmdieselspecialist.com/

Is that the same one you used? The person I was emailing with said they would be putting the charge in on Friday (when I got in touch with them EARLY on Thursday, so that didn't please me) yet nothing has happened. I am not impressed, but I don't have a lot of options for that price. $22/each is a helll of a lot better than the $68 each (Even shop rate!) that the stealer wanted.

Nope, not the same guy I dealt with. The VM specialist was actually quick to email me responses, and were fairly helpful, but their feedback showed that they were sometimes slow to ship. Genuine VM is the way to go I think, and that is what the VM specialist sells. He sells on ebay and off of ebay. I personally don't like aftermarket parts on odd vehicles/engines, especially ones with no names. I won't use them or sell them to my customers. The guy I was referring to is "in the UK" on ebay, but it seems he is really in Poland from his feedback. They are aftermarket "no name" rockers and lifters. I cannot remember his name on there, but can look for it if you want. I do not recommend him. :2cents:

I am working with VM US to try to get these VM branded parts available to us other than through Mopar. They are working on it from what I am told. Something about an agreement with Chrysler, but that may change from what I understand. I am hoping to get a decent catalog operational so these parts are a little easier to get here in the US.

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:25 am

What i have learned from 80,000 miles of driving a VM CRD is the top of the engine design is the weak link. So any time i have the intake off I replace all the rockers and lifters. It's expencive but it may save a future teardown and save alot of frustration. I have had several rocker / lifter issues on the exhaust side only. I have lost a lot of confintance in the VM engine. But with the EGR removed GDE tune and provent installed i may have a few more years in it. Would have been nice to do the mods on a new engine and see how long it runs without issues. I do agree with Geordi the VW Jetta TDI is a great car and will be geting a new one for my wife. But it not a JEEP!

Good luck geting it back runing.

Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

Geordi,
can you share with us your maintenance habits and type of oil used? I'm curious as to what kind of oil you use and how often you changed your oil.

Thanks and good luck finding your issue.

D

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:08 am

Drewd wrote:

Geordi,
can you share with us your maintenance habits and type of oil used? I'm curious as to what kind of oil you use and how often you changed your oil.

Thanks and good luck finding your issue.

D

With pleasure, I want the future owner to come from the members here and know that this CRD has been maintained BETTER than the factory requires, and as I have said before, it WILL RUN PROPERLY before I sell it.

For the entire life that I have had it (since 30k miles, 134k currently) I have used nothing but Mobil One Delvac (also sold as Turbo Diesel Truck) full synthetic or Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic, in 5w40 weight. I also always use the M1-301 Mobil One oil filter. Prior to 120k miles, I was changing the oil every 6000-6500 miles. Most of my miles have been highway, this has not changed. Around 120k, was when Racer and others were discussing the lifter clogging problem, and it was suggested to use a bottle of Rislone oil treatment with every change. I did more than that, I started using the Rislone, and for the next 4 changes, did the oil at 3000 miles as a means of "washing out" anything that might have built up. The EGR has been disabled by the SEGR since the week I bought the CRD, and completely disconnected since 65k miles. The FCV is in place, but the disc is gone and it is unplugged. That has also been disabled since 30k miles by the SEGR.

The fact that the tapping noise has not changed other than location, even though I completely bench-cleaned all my lifters (and found NONE damaged - just stuck) says that my lifters are in good condition, and that I may be misunderstanding the level of pressure applied by the cam that the lifter has to counteract. The lifters may not have been "stuck" so much as they just cannot normally be compressed by just finger pressure. I will know more about that theory when I re-open the top end possibly tomorrow. I have work this week and no parts yet, so my time will be spent elsewhere for the moment. None of the rockers that I examined showed anything obvious, but I will be washing them individually in diesel and closely checking the bearings when I do open the top again. I want to understand what has happened for the group's benefit.

I have changed my transmission fluid approximately every 40k miles, and used a bottle of Lucas Transmission Fix to try and prevent the drainback problems. It has helped... But not completely solved that flaw. Neither the transmission nor the transfer case have been installed for 40k miles yet, but they are filled with synthetic ATF+4. I firmly believe based on the analysis of a transfer case specialist that that failure was a freak accident caused by an already damaged internal shifter in the transfer case (I hardly ever used it out of 2wd) that may have happened before I ever bought the Jeep. The shifter fork was bent and not secure, which could have allowed the transfer case to slip into gear - which it did. The replacement fully checked out and works perfectly.

I have 2 brand-new BFG Long Trail tires on the front, the rear are BFG Commercial Traction tires that are close to the markers, but not gone yet. I have the GDE ECO tune and the GDE transmission tune for reliability, the Etecno metal 7v glow plugs for the same reason, and I have done everything I can think of to make this a more reliable vehicle in spite of what Chrysler has done to it. I have an oil pressure gauge in the main gallery that feeds the turbo and the cylinders so you will know INSTANTLY if your oil pressure is not sufficient, I have an EGT probe installed in the entrance of the turbo - the hottest point so you know exactly what the turbo is experiencing, and I have a boost gauge installed in the outlet of the intercooler so you know exactly what the intake is receiving.

I installed the Hayden severe duty clutch and put the factory metal fan in, I installed the in-hose thermostat with a hole drilled in it and have never had a temperature spike or even an overheating event... I have used only HOAT coolant from NAPA...

I will be the first to admit, when I had my Jetta TDI, I beat the snot out of that car. I think I posted about that recently in this thread, but I wasn't anywhere near as maniacal about the maintenance of that car, and I thought that was why I ended up dropping about $2000 on the fuel pump repair, so I vowed to myself that I would be BETTER than the book on my next vehicle.

Yea... I will **NEVER** get back the money I have put into this Jeep to maintain it or repair the design flaws that have cost me time and massive amounts of money. With this repair, I am now into this vehicle for over $12,000 JUST IN PARTS AND SERVICE, not counting a dime for maintenance items or lost service time.

My selling price is simple: Bluebook value for this Liberty Limited with the upgrades that I can check off on their system is $10,700. For the Jeep, give me $10k once I say it is running again, and it is yours. We can go together to the bank and pay out what I still owe to those pirates for this, and you give them your address for the title. The parts will be most likely sold off separately, but the buyer gets first shot at whatever he wants, including the FULL Factory tool set of 4 cases worth, as well as the AutoEnginuity Scanner that can read from every system in the Jeep - ABS, airbags, wireless, you name it. It can clear codes from all of them. That scanner is $500 by itself, and laptop-based. If someone buys the Jeep and all the parts together, I will GIVE THEM a laptop to run the scanner on. My price for the whole package: $14,000. That is over $1000 in tools and the scanner, and FAR more than $3000 in spare parts. I will be doing a full inventory soon, but September is heading into my busy period.

A quick taste of what I have in spares:
NEW OEM water pump
Complete cylinder head with valves
Valve cover WITH CAMS in excellent condition - mirror finish, no pitting.
Complete set of injectors and injector lines
Fuel rail with both sensors, working and never disassembled
Multiple MAP, MAF, CAM, Crank sensors
FULL engine wiring harness
Cam timing belt gears
Exhaust manifold
Intake elbow
Timing belt tensioner
Timing belt idlers
Crankshaft pulley
Crankshaft serpentine belt pulley
Rod and piston parts - you may not be able (or want) to re-use these
Oil-pan-located balance shaft assembly
Bin of ALL bolts from the engine, lots of spares for when you drop one in an inconvenient location.
Numerous engine plastic parts - fuel rail fittings, etc.
lots more, I know I'm forgetting plenty. The parts I have FILL a 2.5' wide by 2.5' high by 4' long rolling box, AND an 18 gallon Rubbermaid container - Many are already bagged in ziplock to protect them and keep them in the condition they were removed in - fully functional. NONE of the oil coating has been removed to retain the protective layer.

omaharacer · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:47 am

Sorry to hear that you are having so many problems w/ the CRD. I tried to buy a set of rockers/lifters from VM Specialist through eBay - 3 weeks of frustration and had to file a complaint through PayPal/eBay to get my money back. Hopefully they have pulled their head out of their $$$ since then, but good luck. I ended up buying another set of rockers/lifters for my 2nd CRD here - http://www.ebay.com/itm/270935423374. Price is about the same, and I got them in 3 days from Lithuania via DHL. They shipped me Eurocam brand.

kjjet · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:00 am

I SEE A PROBLEM HERE!
The oil Geordi is using Moble 1 Delvac & Shell Rotella T6 5W-40 dose not meet Daimler Chrysler Mfg required API CF rating, Below is a copy of the rating:

CF – Indirect Injected Diesel Engine Service – Service typical of indirect injected diesel engines and other diesel engines that use a broad range of fuel types, including those using fuel with sulfur content above 0.5%. Requirements include control of piston deposits, wear and bearing corrosion. Engines may be naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged. CF rated oils may be used when API CD oils are called for. LE’s 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA Engine Oil, LE’s 8130 MONOLEC ULTRA-BLEND and LE’s MONOLEC GFS Engine Oil meet the CF requirements.

MOBIL web also calls for only:
Mobil 1 0W-40 (European car formula)
Current Vehicle:
Year: 2005
Make: Jeep
Model: Liberty
Engine Type: 4cyl. 2.8Liter Turbocharged

If you don't use the CF rating oil you may build up deposits that may block small oil passages. As far as i'm conserned i will continue to run only Mobil 1 0w-40 CF rated oil only!

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:06 am

You misunderstand the API ratings. The "CF" rating Chrysler wants refers to the following: The "F" or 6th revision of oils for "C" or compression engines. I don't know if there was a CG revision, but they advance in alphabetical order with each new letter's revision superseding the one before. The Mobil One Delvac and Shell Rotella T6 are both CJ-4, which is higher on the scale than a CJ, higher than a CI or CI-4. So Chrysler requiring a CF oil, The CF standard is very old, far older than even the CH revision, which also would be acceptable.

There are a LOT of people on this board that use the exact same oil, please don't scare them by saying they are not using the proper oils. Anything STANDARD oil is incorrect, that is absolute. The regular synthetic oils out there like Castrol tend to follow just the CF standard, where Turbo Diesel Truck is much more advanced.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:27 am

For those that care see http://www.api.org/certification-progra ... 20210.ashx for API "C" oil ratings. CF dates to 1994 and was replaced by CG-4 in 1995 and other ratings as time went by and "high" sulpher diesel was replaced by "lower" sulpher diesel. In the US at least "high" sulpher diesel has not been legal for on the road use for quite some time.

kjjet · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:06 pm

Thanks papaindigo. Agreed. I just talked with a Mobil Engineer and he stated while nothing fully replaced CF, with the introduction of Ultra low Sulfur Diesel the CF designation is no longer needed. But he stated Daimler Chrysler Mfg requires this engine to run a Viscosity index of 185. The only oil Mobil makes that meets this is 0w-40 (European car Formula) which is CF. Delvac 5w-40 has a Viscosity index of 156. He would not recomend runing it long term. Great for big Trucks but not thin enough little European engines.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:10 pm

Then he should be made aware of the oil suggestions for this engine in the rest of the world, which go as high as 15w40 standard weight oils.

The owners manual and Chrysler both also state that the 5w40 is an acceptable alternative.

turbobill · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:58 pm

Geordi, when you pull it apart again I would be very interested to hear if you have any lifters that you can compress more easily than others. They should all be very difficult to compress. You mentioned the forces on the lifters and they are very high, if a valve does not move. You have a two inch lever working against the rotating cam leveraged off the top of the valve stems trying to force the lifters down. If the valve were hitting the top of the piston I am sure that either the valve stem or the piston top would give way if the rocker or lifter top did not break, thus our design that uses the lifters/rockers as designed points of failure. As I reported earlier I broke the tops out of five lifters when I mistimed my exhaust side during a timing belt change and my exhaust valves were making contact with the pistons tops. Good luck on the next tear down.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:50 pm

kjjet wrote:

I SEE A PROBLEM HERE!
The oil Geordi is using Moble 1 Delvac & Shell Rotella T6 5W-40 dose not meet Daimler Chrysler Mfg required API CF rating, Below is a copy of the rating:

CF – Indirect Injected Diesel Engine Service – Service typical of indirect injected diesel engines and other diesel engines that use a broad range of fuel types, including those using fuel with sulfur content above 0.5%. Requirements include control of piston deposits, wear and bearing corrosion. Engines may be naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged. CF rated oils may be used when API CD oils are called for. LE’s 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA Engine Oil, LE’s 8130 MONOLEC ULTRA-BLEND and LE’s MONOLEC GFS Engine Oil meet the CF requirements.

Our engines are not indirect injection either, but direct. CI-4 or CJ are better oils.

Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

Geordi, sounds like you've been doing everything right. I'm not familiar with risilone engine oil treatment and hope others can chime in and comment on it.

Before tearing it down again assuming it is a sticky lifter, I'd probably drain 2 quarts of oil from engine and replace it with kerosene and run engine at idle only for 20 minutes or so and see if that helps.

I hope that CF oil guy was kidding, he was, wasn't he?

I'm a little scared about lifters now too and will probably try a PAO/ester blend oil such as redline and see if it helps prevent any issues down the road

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:00 am

Let me first say that I am by no means an expert in oil types. However, I have a very learned friend who is. He directed me to the oil that I have used in my CRD since I bought it. For the record, I purchased my Liberty w/85k on the clicker and it currently has 121k. I had no knowledge of the service history of this CRD prior to buying it. To date, the biggest repair that I have done is the timing belt. I have the original turbo, injectors and CP3 injection pump.

I have always used Amsoil European Car Formula 5W-40, 100% Synthetic. Too, I have always used a pint of Amsoil motor flush added to the oil and run for 15 minutes before the oil change. Here is a link the web page:

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx

Rather than the CJ-4 rating etc, what I looked for was the Manufacturer Spec indicators. This oil, as you can see on the site is approved by many manufacturers, including Volkswagen 505.00/505.01 and Mercedes-Benz 229.51. As well, it also meets the DaimlerChrysler material spec, MS-10725, a point that is printed in bold type in the Owner's Manual. Page 315, paragraph 2, Second Edition.

Given that these car makers have very strict standards, I felt confident that this oil would work well in my Italian-engined Jeep.

FWIW,

Hoosier CRD

Loud tapping from top end

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