Loud tapping from top end

kjjet · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:51 am

Members: don't think this is a attact on you. I am just trying to provide facts. It's your engine. I'm sure you all have read the below info from the jeep manual.

The fact is oils that do not meet both MS-10725 & SAE Viscosity rating should not be used.
Also it states 5W-40 is acceptable if you can not find 0W-40. It's my and My local Jeep MGR's beleve that 5W-40 should only be used in a pinch. Not long term. Becouse it dose not meet the Viscosity rating. Also in the manual it strongly recommends against any additives.

FROM THE JEEP MANUAL
Engine Oil Selection (Diesel Engines)
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends using synthetic engine oils
that are API Certified (SL/CF), and meet the requirements
of DaimlerChrysler Material Standard MS-10725.
Engine Oil Viscosity (2.8L Diesel Engines)
Use SAE 0W-40 Mobil 1 Synthetic Engine Oil that
meets API categories CF or better and the requirements
of DaimlerChrysler Material Standard MS-10725. If you
cannot find SAE 0W-40, then SAE 5W-40 Mobil 1
Synthetic Engine Oil is acceptable. Any engine oil that
does not meet the manufacturer’s requirements should
not be used.
Lubricants which do not have both, the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
Synthetic Engine Oils — All Engines
There are a number of engine oils being promoted as
either synthetic or semi-synthetic. If you chose to use
such a product, use only those oils that are certified by
the American Petroleum Institute (API) to display the
symbol on the front of the container or the proper ACEA
category and show the recommended SAE viscosity
grade. Follow the service schedule that describes your
driving type.
Materials Added To Engine Oils
The manufacturer strongly recommends against the addition
of any additives (other than leak detection dyes) to
engine oil. Engine oil is an engineered product and it’s
performance may be impaired by supplemental additives.
MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLE 315
7

cerich · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:35 pm

you're wrong. Sorry.

Look at the same engine in global use and the recommendations elsewhere.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:30 pm

Hoosier CRD wrote:

Let me first say that I am by no means an expert in oil types. However, I have a very learned friend who is. He directed me to the oil that I have used in my CRD since I bought it. For the record, I purchased my Liberty w/85k on the clicker and it currently has 121k. I had no knowledge of the service history of this CRD prior to buying it. To date, the biggest repair that I have done is the timing belt. I have the original turbo, injectors and CP3 injection pump and rocker arms.

I have always used Amsoil European Car Formula 5W-40, 100% Synthetic. Too, I have always used a pint of Amsoil motor flush added to the oil and run for 15 minutes before the oil change. Here is a link the web page:

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx

Rather than the CJ-4 rating etc, what I looked for was the Manufacturer Spec indicators. This oil, as you can see on the site is approved by many manufacturers, including Volkswagen 505.00/505.01 and Mercedes-Benz 229.51. As well, it also meets the DaimlerChrysler material spec, MS-10725, a point that is printed in bold type in the Owner's Manual. Page 315, paragraph 2, Second edition. Given that these car makers have very strict standards, I felt confident that this oil would work well in my Italian-engined Jeep.

FWIW,

Hoosier CRD

CORRECTION:

It appears that there are at least two (2) editions of the 2005 Owner's Manual. I happen to have a first and second edition in my possession.

The first edition states that for 2.8 Liter Diesel Engines, the owner should use "SAE 5W-30 Mobil One Syntethic with API categories CF/CF2 and/or CG-4." Page 301, 3rd paragraph.

The second edition of the 2005 manual included the MS-10725 information is given as stated above. The earlier post and the quote herein has been edited to reflect this change.

In both editions, it does clearly state that "the manufacturer strongly recommends against the addition of any additives (other than leak detection dye) to engine oil. Engine oil is an engineered product and it's performance may be impaired by supplemental additives."

Hoosier CRD

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:02 pm

The oil suggestions also do not take into account the changes that the oil industry has made to be in compliance with new requirements for (what else) emissions, at the expense yet again of engine lifespan. I am speaking specifically of the removal of zinc packages from the oil, which has had a protective effect on things like camshaft follower wear in other engines.

The additive Rislone that I was using wasn't the ZDDP type (Zinc) but it was to help keep the engine cleaner to hopefully prevent lifter issues. Maybe it did, maybe not... I still have no information.

I would not suggest any even thinner oils in this engine, especially when it is acceptable in places like Africa to use standard oils and not even synthetics.

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geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:09 pm

Now... Let me tell you about tearing it open yet again, to bring this thread back on track. I have the valve cover removed again, in preparation for the lifter arrival.

All the lifters are pumped back up firm again - I cannot compress them with my fingers, so obviously the oil galleries re-pressurized them. None of the rockers show anything unusual (still) so I am once again at a complete loss as to what has happened to cause this noise.

None of the rollers was anything other than smooth, so I am completely stumped. Again.

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turbobill · **Posted:** Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:54 pm

Geordi, my crankshaft pulley failed this week. Fortunately I caught it before it came completely apart, but it did make a racket when the engine was running. Sounded like a wind chime in a hurricane. I know the symptom is different than you are having but if it failed in just the right way maybe you would bet the tapping sound. The sound seemed to come from the top front of my motor but it was in fact on the bottom front. Just a thought.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:11 pm

turbobill wrote:

Geordi, my crankshaft pulley failed this week. Fortunately I caught it before it came completely apart, but it did make a racket when the engine was running. Sounded like a wind chime in a hurricane. I know the symptom is different than you are having but if it failed in just the right way maybe you would bet the tapping sound. The sound seemed to come from the top front of my motor but it was in fact on the bottom front. Just a thought.

Which pulley? The serpentine belt, or the timing belt? If you are talking about the serpentine belt pulley... The engine is still tapping away loud as ever, while that pulley is on the ground in a box of parts.

In other news, I decided to try some destructive testing on one of the used head bolts, to see exactly how much force I could apply to one before it either yielded or failed entirely. I have a Pintle Hitch on my generator, which is about a 4-inch wide space between 2 sections of 1/4" thick steel, filled with solid steel of the pintle loop - So I have a 4.5 inch wide tube of solid steel to play with.

The bolt (and the grade 3 nut on the other end) took almost 220 lbs of torque, AND at least 3 full revolutions after the book-spec torque-plus-150 degrees of turn before something failed.

What failed? The nut was partly compressed INTO the hole on it's end, but the actual failure was the head of the bolt. No, it didn't shear off... The corners of the bolt head rounded off completely, within the 11mm socket. The socket did not fail, the head is now completely round. No stretching of the bolt was evidenced at all, although I have not compared it yet to another bolt or tried a second one in this demolition test.

Wow.

turbobill · **Posted:** Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:43 pm

serpentine belt pulley. sorry for not reading your post closely enough

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:15 am

turbobill wrote:

serpentine belt pulley. sorry for not reading your post closely enough

Totally OK, I'm interested in any theory at this point. That is part of the reason I started it up after cleaning the lifters and only reassembling to the timing belt - so that if it somehow was everything else, I would hear the quiet OR isolate the external parts as good. Unfortunately, the external parts are not the source of this noise.

Randy B · **Posted:** Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:28 pm

geordi wrote:

turbobill wrote:

serpentine belt pulley. sorry for not reading your post closely enough

Totally OK, I'm interested in any theory at this point. That is part of the reason I started it up after cleaning the lifters and only reassembling to the timing belt - so that if it somehow was everything else, I would hear the quiet OR isolate the external parts as good. Unfortunately, the external parts are not the source of this noise.

I have been following this post, and this is just a theory, could it be a damaged lobe on one of the cams? But I would think you would have seen some kind of sign either on the lifter and or rocker/ Just a thought. :2cents:

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:13 pm

Randy B wrote:

geordi wrote:

turbobill wrote:

serpentine belt pulley. sorry for not reading your post closely enough

Totally OK, I'm interested in any theory at this point. That is part of the reason I started it up after cleaning the lifters and only reassembling to the timing belt - so that if it somehow was everything else, I would hear the quiet OR isolate the external parts as good. Unfortunately, the external parts are not the source of this noise.

I have been following this post, and this is just a theory, could it be a damaged lobe on one of the cams? But I would think you would have seen some kind of sign either on the lifter and or rocker/ Just a thought. :2cents:

That was one of my first thoughts, except for three things that deflate that theory:

1: No damage is evident on either the cams or the rockers.
2: I swapped the entire valve cover (complete with 2 OTHER cams already installed) with the one from my original engine. No change.
3: The noise seems to have "moved forward" in the engine, which tracks with the lifters getting rearranged when I cleaned them and lost track of which ones came from the #3 cylinder... BUT the rockers (which all STILL seem to have the same smooth feel and no damage) from the #3 were specifically placed on the #1 cylinder instead. The noise now seems to be on the #1 cylinder.

This points (again) to the rockers / lifters being the source of this noise. I just wish that damm box from the UK would arrive, and I could get this thing running again.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:48 pm

The rockers finally arrived from England today, and it is back together again to the timing belt.

Here is a video of it idling... And still banging merrily away. https://www.dropbox.com/s/bwf69yozduefn ... .25.47.mov

^%$$#&^$%@I*%$&^^%*&@$%^&^$!@^$*&^!%*^&%$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is about what I said after I started it up and it returned to doing this. Anyone want a Jeep before I find a friendly military type to use it for target practice?

I'm completely out of ideas again. If I tear it down again, I'm putting the other head on it, the one from my bottom end detonation. Right now, I have no clue WTF is going on with it.

fastRob · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:13 pm

Have you tried a stick/stethoscope to check everything except the fan of course, but i would check that too.
Bless you.
What a challenge!!!

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:37 pm

fastRob wrote:

Have you tried a stick/stethoscope to check everything except the fan of course, but i would check that too.
Bless you.
What a challenge!!!

No fan in place, no accessories. That is why you can see the cams rotating freely.

It did not make any tapping noises while attempting to start, so I think I will try swapping that #3 injector first and see if that changes anything.

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 am

But I thought you had the injectors inspected already and the injector shop gave them a "good to go"?

An old diesel mechanic I know says to use ATF fluid poured into an empty fuel filter to clean the injectors, it works the best.

It does sounds like an injector knock. Listen to similar YouTube videos I found online regarding injector knock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WosBLt54nQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orbbourGCOQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPV-HPxWY08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJBNlX_PXFg

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:38 am

Or you could try filling your fuel filter with a combination of Stanadyne Performance and Lubricity Formula additives.

I really hate to hear that you still have the knock. I would especially hate to hear that you have a bad injector, or at the very least a stuck injector after having them tested at a Bosch approved diesel shop. You may give those guys a call and see if they can give you insight on Common Rail injector noises. These injectors, while similar to the old-school pencil style, are vastly more complicated and precise.

IF you need an injector, the Bosch P/N is 0 445 110 217 and should cost in the neighborhood of $610.00 each.

I truly hope that you find a different problem.

dkenny · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:06 am

a cheap thing to try. 2 cycle oil in the fuel..same idea as Hoosier but using a cheaper source of oil.

-dkenny

kjjet · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:12 am

Sounds close to a injector knock?? Send them out for sure. I had mine cleaned & tested for $30 each. You also can try LubriBor its a Super Concentrated Lubricity Agent Specially for Diesel and Jet fuel. It lubricates the injectors and pump. I use it in every tank full. You could try a large dose of it directly in the filter.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:20 am

I hate to say it, but I, too, am still leaning towards an injector knock. You have checked everything else. Swap out another set or switch them and see what happens. At the very least it will rule it out. When I change my fuel filter, about every 10-15K, I fill the filter with Diesel Kleen. I used to do this on the old VW engines. ATF works as well, but I am not sure it is such a good idea in a common rail engine given the high PSI's. I'd stick with an actual diesel cleaner. Hope you get your tapping resolved soon!

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:46 pm

I have a full set of injectors from the old engine, they have been sitting in a Ziplock since the engine replacement.

Swapped the #3 with one of the #1 or #3 units... No change, noise still present, except now it runs much worse, was harder to start, and has an occasional squeaking noise. Did it with the other one, and same results. Tried putting it in gear and accelerating while holding the brake, can't get it over 1100 RPM. Just refuses completely.

Tried starting it with the #3 injector not mounted (open cylinder) but connected to the fuel rail and electrically unplugged - so that the fuel rail could pressurize. Started, ran, didn't make tapping noise that I could tell... I'm completely stumped.

I'm waiting for it to cool now, and I guess I will be tearing it down AGAIN. I hate this thing so much right now.

Loud tapping from top end

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