Loud tapping from top end

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:54 pm

Interesting. Do the injector numbers match?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:15 pm

I think the 12 digit number is the serial number, the 6 digit alpha code doesn't (but I know what that is for) but the other number (part number?) does match.

jkbkwarner · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:14 pm

Could there be a correlation to the injector pump? Meaning if the injector themselves impact the behavior, maybe it's an affect of the pressure / flow to the injectors?

:2cents:

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:30 pm

It is dead. At this point I will probably be stripping everything off of it and parting the entire vehicle out.

It broke a rod bottom exactly the same way it did the first time, only this time it put the rod through the SIDE of the block about half way up. At idle. While FULL OF OIL and never run low. I have no words for how pissed I am at this design, but I will NOT put any more money into this waste of a vehicle. I am already most of the way back to the lifters, and I fully expect to find that they are all still perfect. The reasons for this failure completely eludes me, the bottom end on this engine should not have fallen apart like it has.

$16,000 original purchase price.
$800 turbo #1
$8000 engine #2 after #1 broke the #1 rod and put it through the oil pan.
$800 transmission
$400 transfer case
$1200 r/r of both with new torque converter
$1100 in parts and diagnostics for the top end... When apparently the bottom end can't be trusted to remain in functional condition.
Bought used in October 2006... 6 years almost exactly of ownership, with fully 12 months not in service due to catastrophic failures.

FML.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:37 pm

Wow, what a disaster. Sorry Bro. :dead:

I wonder if the valve-hitting-the-piston was the cause, or if the noise was the rod failing all along?

As you say, if you can't discern the cause it really brings everything into question.

Whatever you end up with to replace it - here's hoping you pick a good one.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:51 pm

OUCH!! darn, man. I am truly sorry to hear about this. Yeah, part it out, get rid of it.

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:31 pm

What the heck happened? How?

Can someone shed some light as to what caused this?

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:00 pm

Geordi - sorry to hear about the engine

- I'm also confused about this - I could understand the turbo dumping oil - but it everything's good???

was there anything in the second engine that was a carryover from the first?

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:18 pm

Dude, sorry to hear about that. I am just hoping that you're a black cloud and that this is not the "norm"

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Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

Geordi,
My deepest regrets regarding your discovery and decision. I was secretly hoping that your mechanical problem was something simple given your history with the Liberty CRD.

Good luck in finding a replacement vehicle. You probably don't want anything to do with a Jeep or another diesel but my Grand Cherokee CRD has been very good to us and I'm now thinking of selling my Liberty CRD to get out of it what I can before it self destructs and buying another GC CRD or something more reliable.

Good luck,
Drew

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:30 am

Drew... I wish you the best of luck with any Chrysler, but that manufacturer has seen the last dollar from my entire family.
ChooChoo: It may be that the purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others... But I already know that I am not the first engine failure of these... I do believe that I am the first with TWO engine failures, and this second one has no cause that I can discern right now. There is NO REASON for this to have happened that I can figure out. Other than just an extremely poor design, which is the reason that puts a ticking clock on ALL our vehicles.

ATX: Nothing on the internals of the engine (nor the head, nor the valve cover, or anything in between) were from the old engine. The replacement engine arrived with 60k miles on it, and went into a chassis that also had 60k miles on it, so it has an honest 133k according to the odometer. The variance between the two engines in mileage was less than 5k miles.
The only components that were reused were the external accessories - Power steering, AC, alternator, radiator. Not even the water pump was reused, and I also got a replacement viscous heater and fuel pump.

I was wrong about which cylinder failed, which only throws even more confusion on this. The computer code was for a misfire in #3, which was where I thought I had heard the tapping before. I thought I heard the tapping move forward to #1 when I shuffled the rocker arms around... But the rod cap on the bottom that broke and the rod arm that punched through the side of the block is NUMBER FOUR - A cylinder that was never in consideration for a problem!

This engine has NEVER been operated low on oil. It has NOT suffered a turbo failure that resulted in an oil leak (which is what killed engine #1, and this is well known and understood why and how it happened)... This oil change and the 4 previous were all done at 3,000 mile intervals, HALF of what the book suggests. The ONLY OIL I have ever run in this vehicle is either Mobil 1 Delvac (Truck and SUV) or Shell Rotella T6, both in 5w/40 and fully synthetic. The oil filter has always been a Mobil 1 M1-301.

ALL the rockers are STILL in pristine condition, and I would have no problem selling them to anyone that wanted them. The ones from the UK have exactly 5 minutes of IDLING on them before the engine grenaded, and none were harmed in the failure. At no point did a piston ever contact a valve. I wish to God that one had - that would be an expected failure mode for this engine... What happened to mine, I am at a complete loss to explain.

I have already pulled the valve cover again and ran out of time tonight before I could pull the head, but I don't expect to find any damage on the head - again - and that whatever happened, happend below the pistons where I never thought to look, even if I could. I have to drive to a gig in Florida tomorrow or Thursday, so I will try and get some pictures of the teardown when I can for everyone. I want to know what happened just as much as anyone else. The randomness of this failure makes me VERY nervous for all the members here.

Edit: Well, I came back from my meeting and having a couple drinks (so obviously not THAT kind of meeting!) ...I needed those drinks, I feel a bit better now. Anyway, I was awake and bored, so went back to beat on it some more. Got the head pulled.

No damage at all to the head - looks perfect. This confirms what I suspected when I got the rockers out - they were all mint too, so I now have 2 full sets of rockers / lifters for anyone. The crankshaft is COMPLETELY frozen. Can't make it budge in either direction. Whatever broke in there, is wedged but good. Also can't budge the exposed rod end in the side of the block. What I suspect, is that since the balance shaft setup (of which I have a spare) is this big gears-and-swinging-weights-of-steel arrangement under the 2/3/4 cylinders... Some of the broken rod cap may have forced itself into the gears and jammed up the works. The top of the pistons (and the head gasket) all looks pristine too.

Whatever happened, it all happened below the pistons, in an area that is beyond my abilities to know how to inspect. I don't know what to tell anyone, the first time I had a rod cap failure, there was a concrete reason to point to - lack of oil flow ruined the rod bearing. This time... It had full oil flow, the oil pressure gauge said as much, 40-60 psi at idle with a cold engine. I have no answers at all.

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:10 am

I've heard of 2 CRD engines throwing rods and you possess both of them, incredible but true.

Similar to winning the lotto twice......few and far between.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:39 pm

Geordi,

In the interest of finding out more information about the failure, it would be great if you could send an oil sample off for analysis. That way, the group can learn more of what to look out for with higher mileage CRDs and also have something to compare their results to. Just a thought.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:26 pm

I'm willing, and I have plenty of oil still in it (only about 3200 miles old) to do it with... But I've never done that. How do I do it?

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Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:33 pm

I'll gather the information and post it here.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:34 pm

[quote="geordi"]I'm willing, and I have plenty of oil still in it (only about 3200 miles old) to do it with... But I've never done that. How do I do it?

Well, to be honest, I have only had one oil analysis done before. It was many years ago. BUT, this company is referenced in other threads of late, so here ya go:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:25 pm

I have used Blackstone Labs a few times before.....twice on the CRD and once on my Pontiac Vibe. My folks also used them once. They are pretty quick on getting the analysis back to you. I like the fact that they not only give you the analysis but also an interpretation of the causes to what they find.

Jim

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:09 pm

Heh, their analysis of mine will probably warn of "potential engine damage" when I think I might already have that... :p

When I'm back in Savannah I will pull the oil and send it off.

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Loud tapping from top end

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