Cold start problem help request

dyneq · **Joined:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:01 pm **Posts:** 22

Howdy All,

I've been reading this forum ever since I got my 2005 CRD a few years ago, but have never had to ask a question until now! My better half would like to get rid of the Jeep because of this issue, so please help me out if you can - I love this vehicle and want to keep it.

I have always had difficulty starting in cold weather away from power (no problems when using the block heater). I live in CO and go on overnight backcountry ski trips where I need to leave the Jeep parked in very cold weather at high altitudes (10K feet and up) with no way to plug in. Here is what I have done to try and help the situation:

- Replaced battery twice (new red top and then recently the Sears P1).
- Had the dealer replace the glow plugs and module under the recall.
- Replaced the fuel filter head and made sure that there is no trapped air.
- Adding Diesel Kleen Fuel Supplement.

It will eventually start after about 15-20 minutes of GP cycle and starting. When it does start, it runs very rough and smokes excessively for a while. I've tried multiple GP cycles, etc., but nothing has made a difference. FWIW, I do have the GDE Eco Tune, but I had this issue before that was flashed.

Thanks,
John

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:42 pm

Talk to Keith. He tuned someone, who I believe lives in Canada, and who has the 5v GPs and used the 7v logic. You will probably have to replace the GPs more often if you do this. I mean, it is worth a shot.

By the way, how long is your GP light staying on for? And, as far as cycling, I have not had any luck with that. If I don't start it as soon as my GP light goes off, then there I have not been able to get them to cycle again no matter what I do. Where I am, I have had no issues down to 5 or so degrees, but it is probably colder where you are.

BTW, here is a video of a few cold starts...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShYDU0W1 ... IRSf3HsFvw

dgeist · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:44 pm

I know it's not really "solving the problem" (if there is actually something wrong), but you have decent bettery charge, you could try running the AC heater off a small inverter for a while and see if it helps. Granted, this might hamper your CCA capacity. I think there are little "all-in-one" units that are battery based designed to power AC appliances.

Dan

dyneq · **Joined:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:01 pm **Posts:** 22

Thanks for the ideas so far.

Is Keith the guy from GDE?

The inverter might be worth a try. At home, I plug it in for about an hour when it gets down to the teens or below, but I'm not sure how long would be sufficient up in the mountains. I obviously wouldn't want to kill my battery...does anyone know what the draw is for the heater?

If the plugs or sensors are bad, I'd be getting a check engine light with codes, right?

CATCRD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:41 pm

dyneq wrote:

Thanks for the ideas so far.

Is Keith the guy from GDE?

The inverter might be worth a try. At home, I plug it in for about an hour when it gets down to the teens or below, but I'm not sure how long would be sufficient up in the mountains. I obviously wouldn't want to kill my battery...does anyone know what the draw is for the heater?

The heater draws 400w. It would kill your battery quickly. You would be robbing Peter to pay Paul by killing the cranking power of your battery just before trying to start the motor. Bad idea.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:25 pm

See if you can pick up an inverter generator made someplace other than China who tend to use lousy windings and voltage regulators. The North American, Japanese, and Euro ones are good and work great. Start the inverter Generator plug in the block heater and go out and start the CRD.
Cheers.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:00 am

warp2diesel wrote:

See if you can pick up an inverter generator made someplace other than China who tend to use lousy windings and voltage regulators. The North American, Japanese, and Euro ones are good and work great. Start the inverter Generator plug in the block heater and go out and start the CRD.
Cheers.

Worst case. Harbor freight 800watt 2cycle generator for just over 100 bucks.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

dyneq · **Joined:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:01 pm **Posts:** 22

I've got to ask the obvious question: is this normal for the CRD? If not, I'd prefer to get it working like it should. I've seen lots of videos of people starting CRDs in extreme cold (besides the one ChooChooman74 shared), so I was hoping that I could get mine to work too.

It seems like the basics for starting a cold diesel are: compression, winterized fuel, and heat from the plugs. My new P1 battery is cranking like a champ, so I've got compression covered and I've been using winterized fuel with the anti-gel additive, so I'm wondering if the glow plug system has a problem.

If anyone knows a good diesel technician in the Denver area, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm thinking about taking it back to the dealer who installed the new glow plugs + module, which I know will not be cheap.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:36 am

dyneq wrote:

I've got to ask the obvious question: is this normal for the CRD? If not, I'd prefer to get it working like it should. I've seen lots of videos of people starting CRDs in extreme cold (besides the one ChooChooman74 shared), so I was hoping that I could get mine to work too.

It seems like the basics for starting a cold diesel are: compression, winterized fuel, and heat from the plugs. My new P1 battery is cranking like a champ, so I've got compression covered and I've been using winterized fuel with the anti-gel additive, so I'm wondering if the glow plug system has a problem.

If anyone knows a good diesel technician in the Denver area, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm thinking about taking it back to the dealer who installed the new glow plugs + module, which I know will not be cheap.

I don't believe it is normal. Someone screwed something up. I would send a PM to sir sam. I believe he is in your area.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:43 pm

If you leave it unplugged overnight what sort of temps will it not start at?

The only times I have had trouble starting is when my fuel gelled. Even at 11k feet and 0-10 temps overnight I was able to start(though more recently I have had some issues starting around 0-20, I think my glow plugs are weak now).

Do you have an ammeter and can tell us how many amps your starter tries to pull during startup?

I'm sort of grasping at straws on this one, it does sound atypical.

715racing · **Joined:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:58 pm **Posts:** 10

dyneq wrote:

Howdy All,

I've been reading this forum ever since I got my 2005 CRD a few years ago, but have never had to ask a question until now! My better half would like to get rid of the Jeep because of this issue, so please help me out if you can - I love this vehicle and want to keep it.

I have always had difficulty starting in cold weather away from power (no problems when using the block heater). I live in CO and go on overnight backcountry ski trips where I need to leave the Jeep parked in very cold weather at high altitudes (10K feet and up) with no way to plug in. Here is what I have done to try and help the situation:

- Replaced battery twice (new red top and then recently the Sears P1).
- Had the dealer replace the glow plugs and module under the recall.
- Replaced the fuel filter head and made sure that there is no trapped air.
- Adding Diesel Kleen Fuel Supplement.

It will eventually start after about 15-20 minutes of GP cycle and starting. When it does start, it runs very rough and smokes excessively for a while. I've tried multiple GP cycles, etc., but nothing has made a difference. FWIW, I do have the GDE Eco Tune, but I had this issue before that was flashed.

Thanks,
John

Maybe this will help?
Service Bulletin:- 16 DEC 05- 18-038-05 REV A - Engine start and driveability at altitude

dirtmover · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:31 am

dyneq wrote:

Here is what I have done to try and help the situation:

- Replaced battery twice (new red top and then recently the Sears P1).
- Had the dealer replace the glow plugs and module under the recall.
- Replaced the fuel filter head and made sure that there is no trapped air.
- Adding Diesel Kleen Fuel Supplement.

So you had the GPs replaced to try and fix this issue? Do you know if you had ceramics in there at the time? Did you confirm if they were actually bad or was the dealer just throwing parts at the problem hoping to fix it?

You may have other issues causing your starting issues in cold weather and changing good ceramics to the lower temperature slower heating metal plugs just made things worse.

I can't comment on the metal plugs because I'm still working through my stock of ceramics but rough running on cold starts, and I'm talking about below -15C here, is normal. The colder it gets the rougher it gets but there shouldn't be excessive smoke.

dyneq · **Joined:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:01 pm **Posts:** 22

715racing: This week, it had a hard time starting at 20 degrees at about 5400 ft elevation, so I don't think the elevation is the issue (although it could contribute). It was still much easier to start than in the mountains (typically single digits and 10,500 ft elevation). What does the Service Bulletin recommend?

dirtmover: I was having the timing belt service done and had read about the new plugs/module here. I decided to have that done too because I'm the second owner and had complete records from the original owner who hadn't replaced them. I never informed them about my starting difficulties.

I can handle rough starts and take my time when it's cold, but it takes about 15 minutes of repeated plug cycle/cranks to get it to that point. Drewd has kindly offered to help me install a lift pump and do some diagnosis. I just came across the tech article on testing the glow plugs, so I will do that this weekend and report back my findings. If there is a glow plug system fault, would it light up the CEL?

Thanks again to everyone for being willing to help me out.
John

dirtmover · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:02 pm

dyneq wrote:

I just came across the tech article on testing the glow plugs, so I will do that this weekend and report back my findings. If there is a glow plug system fault, would it light up the CEL?

The current flowing through each GP is measured by the ECU and it will light the CEL if one of them fails and raise a code to tell you which. This is the way it's supposed to work and in my experience it does but I have read postings that suggest it is not 100% reliable. If you had no CEL prior to "upgrading" the GPs then they were probably OK.

dyneq · **Joined:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:01 pm **Posts:** 22

I wanted to follow up with my glow plug resistance check. They all read 0.6.

Are there any other tests I can do myself on the glow plug system?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:05 pm

dyneq wrote:

I wanted to follow up with my glow plug resistance check. They all read 0.6.

Are there any other tests I can do myself on the glow plug system?

I am running 7 volt Etechno GPs and they will not heat enough to start with a single pulse from the ECU below 32 degrees F. If I switch on for two seconds then off and on again three times it cranks right up even down to 10 degrees. Obviously a reflash for more heat time would be good. I cannot comment regarding 5 v pkugs, but whatthehell, might give the on and off technique a shot.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:54 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

dyneq wrote:

I wanted to follow up with my glow plug resistance check. They all read 0.6.

Are there any other tests I can do myself on the glow plug system?

I am running 7 volt Etechno GPs and they will not heat enough to start with a single pulse from the ECU below 32 degrees F. If I switch on for two seconds then off and on again three times it cranks right up even down to 10 degrees. Obviously a reflash for more heat time would be good. I cannot comment regarding 5 v pkugs, but whatthehell, might give the on and off technique a shot.

Video I linked above, down to 5, no cycling. No issues starting.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:24 am

dyneq wrote:

Here is what I have done to try and help the situation:

- Replaced battery twice (new red top and then recently the Sears P1).
- Had the dealer replace the glow plugs and module under the recall.
- Replaced the fuel filter head and made sure that there is no trapped air.
- Adding Diesel Kleen Fuel Supplement.

Are you using #1 or #2 Diesel Fuel, or a blend of the two? I highly recommend straight #1 or at least a 50/50 blend when running in temps below 32°F.

Also, which "Power Service" supplement are you using, "Diesel Kleen" in the Silver bottle or the standard "Diesel Fuel Supplement" in the White bottle? "Diesel Kleen" is not a winter additive like the stuff in the White bottle. At any rate I prefer #1 fuel over any additive for cold weather starting.

My CRD can safely start down to 0°F, but I ran into a no-start issue at -10°F once, so I try to avoid those situations. I'm also only at 900' above sea level. Using a 4-year old Interstate battery rated at 700 CCA. I have the GDE ECO-Tune.

dyneq · **Joined:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:01 pm **Posts:** 22

I'm going to try and resurrect my very old thread :oops:

...sorry to fool4wheelin that i never responded. I have changed my settings to get notified of replies. With winter upon us, I'm thinking about this issue again.

I don't know which fuel I'm using. I fill up at my grocery store because they give a discount. I guess I could try and contact their fuel manager and ask. I do use the white bottle additive in the winter months (6 oz. per tank).

Question: does anyone know which sensors are used by the computer during a cold start condition?

I just replaced my crankshaft position sensor due to a no start condition and that got me wondering if the coolant temp sensor or other sensors could be contributing to my issue. I'll read through the service manual, but if anyone has BTDT, please let me know which sensors and how to test.

Brasher · **Joined:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:02 pm **Posts:** 80

There is an air temp sensor. If you were having issues with it it would probably throw a code. Do you have a Scantool that works with the Liberty? You can see if the air temp read by the car matches the actual temperature.

Cold start problem help request

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