Smoke/knock at startup stumper

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

So for the past week or so my jeep has left me scratching my head. It started getting a small knock on startup (almost like the rough cold morning start knock) but it was in the 40's and 50's out. Also she is putting out white smoke when i press on the throttle at all. At idle it only smokes a little until its warmed up. The smoke doesnt smell any different than the regular diesel exhaust smell but it is in excess. I havent really noticed any loss of power. My CEL light isnt on at all. What ive checked so far is
1. I thought I might have got bad fuel so i ran the tank low, added fuel additive and changed the fuel filter
2. Cleaned the MAP sensor. (I cleaned it about 6-8 months ago and it was FILTHY this time. Probably worse than before)

My next check i want to do is the paper blow/suck test. I wouldve done that today but it got dark out in a hurry. Its got 102K miles on it, the TB is currently on order but shipping to germany takes forever and a day. Im afraid it might have skipped timing but im not sure. It still runs well without any noticeable loss of power. Any ideas?

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:08 pm

White smoke on a diesel indicates a high level of fuel return from the injectors. If I understand correctly, you are in Germany? These are Bosch Common Rail injectors, so getting them tested at an authorized Bosch diesel service center (I'm guessing here) should not be too big a problem.

Are you going to work on the CRD yourself? A shop familar with diesels should be able to help you if not. Hope this helps.

Hexus · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:22 pm

I can only assume that your EGR valve is not disabled because you said the MAP is filthy, and that wouldn't happen if you had no EGR.

Most likely, the popping you are hearing at startup is a bit of air trapped in your fuel lines. Several people have posted how to bleed the fuel lines, as well as using clear plastic tubing to check for bubbles. Do some searching.

If you haven't upgraded to a 2nd generation fuel head you're probably going to have to.

At 102k miles your primary concern should be that timing belt. If you have run 102k miles and haven't done an EGR Delete, then your secondary concern should be replacing the rockers and lifters, they are no doubt shot or close enough that it's just a matter of time now.

This might be a good time to sell, unless you are comfortable doing the work yourself or don't like having money.

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

Hoosier CRD wrote:

White smoke on a diesel indicates a high level of fuel return from the injectors. If I understand correctly, you are in Germany? These are Bosch Common Rail injectors, so getting them tested at an authorized Bosch diesel service center (I'm guessing here) should not be too big a problem.

Are you going to work on the CRD yourself? A shop familar with diesels should be able to help you if not. Hope this helps.

I would be doing the work myself. And as for the jeep its a US spec that will be coming back with me in the next year or so. I find it hard to trust shops around my area. A lot of overcharging comes into play because of the mass amount of people with no other options.

Hexus wrote:

I can only assume that your EGR valve is not disabled because you said the MAP is filthy, and that wouldn't happen if you had no EGR.

Most likely, the popping you are hearing at startup is a bit of air trapped in your fuel lines. Several people have posted how to bleed the fuel lines, as well as using clear plastic tubing to check for bubbles. Do some searching.

If you haven't upgraded to a 2nd generation fuel head you're probably going to have to.

At 102k miles your primary concern should be that timing belt. If you have run 102k miles and haven't done an EGR Delete, then your secondary concern should be replacing the rockers and lifters, they are no doubt shot or close enough that it's just a matter of time now.

This might be a good time to sell, unless you are comfortable doing the work yourself or don't like having money.

I replaced the fuel head back in august and havent had any issues with it since. I did make sure there was no air in the lines as i installed the new filter today so hopefully it wont have issues tomorrow. With any luck the starting issue will stop with the filter change. As for the EGR, i dont care much for having a CEL so i left the MAF plugged in. Now i unplugged it and got over my pet peeve.

kjjet · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:14 pm

You may want to ask GDE what EGR you have. I would think the % of EGR is much less in Germany. Changing the timing belt is a must. How is your glow plugs working? What type of Diesel fuel do you have there? Any differant fuel used lately? Clean air filter? What type of oil do you use there? Is the engine using oil? Check for anti-freeze in your oil? Anti-freeze level good?
Sorry for all the questions, but things may be much differant there.
For sure get GDE tune, it's the best thing you can do for your engine.

Good luck.

thermorex · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:51 pm

kjjet wrote:

You may want to ask GDE what EGR you have. I would think the % of EGR is much less in Germany. Changing the timing belt is a must. How is your glow plugs working? What type of Diesel fuel do you have there? Any differant fuel used lately? Clean air filter? What type of oil do you use there? Is the engine using oil? Check for anti-freeze in your oil? Anti-freeze level good?
Sorry for all the questions, but things may be much differant there.
For sure get GDE tune, it's the best thing you can do for your engine.

Good luck.

I'm wondering if he had the crd shipped overseas, but most mileage had been in us. If that's the case, I'd try a reflash of the ecu with an European image if you won't get the gde tune soon, which I also recommend.

Anchorism, are you in the military? Other than spending your money on shops, Germany has good quality diesel mechanics, I bet even jeep's are good.

The fuel in Europe is much higher quality, but I'll be darn, expensive like whiskey, lol.

My jeep also has white smoke for about 1-2 minutes, and IMO it's normal, everything is cold in there. If you don't have coolant loss, and white smoke doesn't persist more than couple minutes, I'd say its no need to worry. But definitely timing belt and coolant flush (for sake of pump more) its a must.

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

The Jeep is a US spec that was shipped here by a previous owner. Yes i am in the military. There isnt any coolant loss. This morning it was around 25f out. Brr.... Germany and 20's is like extra cold! She layed out a WALL of smoke until it the engine warmed up. I planned on getting the GDE tune in the near future (when my tax return gets completed.) The glow plugs were replaced by the dealer when i purchased it back almost a year ago. I run Mobile 1 synthetic 5W40 because thats all they had on the shelf.... figures. Oil looks good, coolant looks good, been running the same fuel that the base supplies for a while now. I believe the oil level is a little high but not over max for sure.
I tried to get a video clip of the smoke that it was putting out this morning but of course i find a spot to pull over and get my phone out and it stopped right before. UGH. The wall of smoke was almost to an emberrasing level. I dont mind rolling coal but this is more like rolling out refinery style!

↑↑what it felt like this morning ha!↑↑

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

Spoke with our squadrons diesel mechanic and he said it is possibly the EGR valve. The knock could just be cold starts and the smoke is most likely the EGR valve taking a crap. I wish it would just throw a darn code already!!!

kjjet · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:05 am

First...Thank You for Military service!

EGR...? Could be. Did you try disconnecting the MAF sensor? It will give you a CEL but may tell you if the EGR is staying on. EGR is a long shot to me. I think you would already have a CEL telling you your EGR ie having problems.

Could be valve seals? Oil is leaking into the CYL's and is burning upon start. The seals could be changed, but thats alot of work!!

Since the T-belt is going to be changed. You could remove the intake also. Inspect the Rockers/lifters, and replace the seals. Like i said thats lots of work.

Best of luck to you!!

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

I disconnected the MAF sensor yesterday. Didnt change a thing. When the mechanic saw it he almost flipped a lid lol. Whatever. He suggested going for a drive down the autobahn for a while to sort of clean out the system as my main driving is a short 5 mile drive to and from work that could cause buildup. Also with my little girl and my wife i tend to let it idle a bit to keep warm when im out running errands. Im sure that doesnt help this situation. I will do what i can to get video of the situation asap.

kjjet · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:43 pm

It should make no differance how long it idle's. The EGR dose not open at idle. It opens at part thottle, mostly when your just crusing. You know, when your trying to get good MPG it opens and dose that in. LOL... thats the EPA for ya.

The more I think about your problem, It sounds like a blown head gasket, cracked head or valve seals.

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

Well i took a short clip of it before i left work. And of course, relatively blue skies and snowing out.... gotta love it. The only thing about the head gasket is theres no coolant loss. I watched my temp gauge and it seems like it stops smoking around 120-130F if that helps at all. Anyways heres what it looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDr49aAipMc

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:14 pm

IMO sounds good and the smoke is normal. It should stop smoking that bad when the engine warms a bit. Some white smoke when engine is cold is normal due to the fact the burning temperatures aren't optimal yet, diesel is an oily fuel (white smoke is because of that partially burned oil - oil burning temps are higher than fuel's) and the whole air-diesel mix is not burned as it should with engine so cold. If you say your coolant and oil level is unchanged, I wouldn't worry about it.

Also, the American market injectors are a little different than the ones in European markets. This is per fsm. The injector's electrical connector for Europe is at 90 degree, ours is at a different angle - close to 45-ish, they say to avoid confusion because of different fuels. Don't know if that may also be a cause for you because you use European fuel. But, I'm 100% sure running w maf unplugged is a good thing since egr won't know when to open since there is no way for it to know when you are cruising (egr may open when engine is warm) or are in full throttle (when egr doesn't open). So just ignore the mechanics, they are thought from school to leave everything as the manufacturer designed. Also, European diesels don't have the issues we have here, they have high quality fuels and oils that we don't (plus I think the pollution regulations are not so draconian as here, thus less egr soot for them), so it's not easily to comprehend for a European why we do all those mods to help with longevity of our engines when they have no similar issues.

P.S. thanks for your service man, you guys are always in our hearts and thoughts. Be safe!

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

thermorex wrote:

IMO sounds good and the smoke is normal. It should stop smoking that bad when the engine warms a bit. Some white smoke when engine is cold is normal due to the fact the burning temperatures aren't optimal yet, diesel is an oily fuel (white smoke is because of that partially burned oil - oil burning temps are higher than fuel's) and the whole air-diesel mix is not burned as it should with engine so cold. If you say your coolant and oil level is unchanged, I wouldn't worry about it.

Also, the American market injectors are a little different than the ones in European markets. This is per fsm. The injector's electrical connector for Europe is at 90 degree, ours is at a different angle - close to 45-ish, they say to avoid confusion because of different fuels. Don't know if that may also be a cause for you because you use European fuel. But, I'm 100% sure running w maf unplugged is a good thing since egr won't know when to open since there is no way for it to know when you are cruising (egr may open when engine is warm) or are in full throttle (when egr doesn't open). So just ignore the mechanics, they are thought from school to leave everything as the manufacturer designed. Also, European diesels don't have the issues we have here, they have high quality fuels and oils that we don't (plus I think the pollution regulations are not so draconian as here, thus less egr soot for them), so it's not easily to comprehend for a European why we do all those mods to help with longevity of our engines when they have no similar issues.

P.S. thanks for your service man, you guys are always in our hearts and thoughts. Be safe!

Thank you for the support of my service. Its always nice to know someone has our backs even when the times are tough. As for the jeep im not sure which injectors its got. It would be a good thing to find out though! I plan on using offbase fuel now as i have been told that its much better by many people. I hope it will help cause that amount of smoke still has me worried. Ive had it for a year now and that is by far the worst ive seen it put out!

Caddis · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:33 pm

Just watched your video. Looks and sounds just like mine on cold starts when it's been outside for a few hours or more at work, maybe even a little better than when I start mine when it's closer to zero F. My jeep lives in a heated 50 degree garage at night, and when I start it and back it out in the morning it still pumps some white smoke if I happen to let it idle in the driveway for a few minutes before the engine warms up.

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

Caddis wrote:

Just watched your video. Looks and sounds just like mine on cold starts when it's been outside for a few hours or more at work, maybe even a little better than when I start mine when it's closer to zero F. My jeep lives in a heated 50 degree garage at night, and when I start it and back it out in the morning it still pumps some white smoke if I happen to let it idle in the driveway for a few minutes before the engine warms up.

I should take a video of what it looks like when driving...lol its a ridiculous amount!

kjjet · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:35 pm

It starts good. More smoke than most. Depending on what you do there, you may have some Jet fuel available. It works wonders in cleaning things up. These things love it. I would try a good strong blow out run.

I would run it and keep a eye on it. Dont run it to hard untill the belt is changed. Are you doing the belt? If you need some good advise and a good procedure let me know.

Best of luck,

KJJET

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:32 pm

Just out of curiosity, if you have the possibility, use the block heater for 1-2 hours before you start the car, see if it has comparable amounts of smoke. Block heater won't warm the engine at the same level as optimal temp, and IMO should be enough to see if your smoke diminishes. And after timing belt replacement, take the car on highway for 20-30 miles with accelerations up to 2500-2800 rpms, so it cleans all that soot you may have from those short interval drive you usually do. I have a hunch you'll be ok.

Anchorism · **Joined:** Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am **Posts:** 71

I will be doing the tb myself and wouldnt mind some pointers at all. Ive got a couple days before ill be out for work for about a month so she will be sitting till i get back. Then ill be doing the belt promptly. I just stepped in from plugging the block heater in actually. I was going to put it on a timer but decided to leave it on all night to see if it makes a big difference. The timer i have is a little sketchy so id rather make sure it was on. One nice thing about being here in germany is even though my drive is a short 6 miles, 4 of it is at 60mph. If i take the alternative route i can easily cruise at 80 without getting in trouble. he he. Gotta love the autobahn.

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:52 pm

Pm kjjet, he has a very thorough walkthrough with pics that he can send you. Also, there are several other good ones on the forum, sir Sam has few videos in the noob guide. This is another good one:
http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/jeep.html

Smoke/knock at startup stumper

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