Bad Turbo?? Need some opinions, Video included of shaft play

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

Anyone know if these nuts are the same as the crap factory nuts? should I just use a good stainless nut and lock washer?

I also noticed the compressor wheel fins not looking great, I can confirm they have been like that since I have owned it as I checked it soon after I acquired the jeep.

That was the first thing I look for when looking a a diesel now. My truck has a upgraded ford intake (Ford AIS) with an expensive $70 filter and the fins look like new at 185k miles. I have been very careful with the jeeps air filter, and now have the gasser airbox. I want to guess that the old box might have let the filter get wet and pass some dirt, or the ripped intake hose did it!

Ok, I got two of the 4 nuts off so far with a 1/4 drive socket and they came right off. The other two are going to have to soak because I don't way to push it as the very nice guy who sold me his slightly used turbo warned me they will break the stud! So not its hurry up and wait, for the nuts to come loose abs my new turbo. (Which I have to pay for now that I think of it!!)

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:41 pm

papaindigo wrote:

painemann - the turbo you should have Friday was working just fine, vanes and all, when it came off my vehicle. In fact it had just been run from Tallahassee to geordi's north of Savannah so the vanes should be quite clean. My thought would be to just install it, be gentle on crankup like I said to make sure it gets full oil pressure before being pushed; then after you have run it a day or two give it an Italian tuneup if you feel it needs it (something I did/do every few months). If you feel the need to clean I cannot speak in detail to the procedure but a number of folks mention using oven cleaner.

MedicPatriot - I've poked at a few health turbos and the one I just sent to painemann had no perceptible play fore/aft or side to side in either fan. On others I've been able to detect a very tiny bit of fore/aft play and only the barest slight hint of side to side play. Best I can say is if there is noticeable, not much help I know, but not necessarily visible movement it's time to consider replacement. The video show movement way past noticeable. Keep in mind the fan shaft spins at an incredible rate and rides on a cushion of oil over a bronze sleeve bearing with some oil holes and grooves in it and is retained fore/aft by essentially a keeper washer. I could be wrong but I'd worry more about side to side play as the side to side clearance on a good turbo is only enough for that slight oil film.

What he said. Any radial play beyond a very few thousands of an inch is too much play. Mine now has about 95k on it and the shaft does not move perceptibly radially, and perhaps 15 or 20 thousands axially.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:56 pm

I am assuming radial play means moving in a circle and axial play means one side to the other, right?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:34 pm

radial = perpendicular to the shaft axis.
Axial = parallel to the shaft axis

audiboy86 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:42 am

Basically if you can pull the shaft in and out these turbos are shot and dont buy a remanufactured one seeing how Kieth at GDE has told me about alot of issue people have experienced with them.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:22 am

In all due respect to everyone here, why are you replacing a perfectly good turbo?

I sell these turbos, and Garrett turbos in general. Along with Holset (Cummins) and Borg-Warner. This turbo is fine. You want to hear it when you are going down the road. These turbos are spec'd to the engine by Garrett for VM. Specifically, VM told Garrett what they wanted and Garrett built it for them. This is the same scenario for any manufacturer and vendor.

Some shaft play is NORMAL. The oil has to have room to get in between the journal bearing and shaft in order to do it's job.

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

Hoosier CRD wrote:

In all due respect to everyone here, why are you replacing a perfectly good turbo?

I sell these turbos, and Garrett turbos in general. Along with Holset (Cummins) and Borg-Warner. This turbo is fine. You want to hear it when you are going down the road. These turbos are spec'd to the engine by Garrett for VM. Specifically, VM told Garrett what they wanted and Garrett built it for them. This is the same scenario for any manufacturer and vendor.

Some shaft play is NORMAL. The oil has to have room to get in between the journal bearing and shaft in order to do it's job.

I'll send the one I remove to you, you can use it!

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:12 pm

Noob question here. If one is worried about minimal play can you just check it regularly to make sure it doesn't get worse or is this something that can just grenade itself apart without an obvious worsening over time?

FWIW I checked mine. Seems good to go. I miss working on old cars where you actually had room to work though.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:45 pm

Well any bearing can fail at any time with some or no warning. Good oil; good oil filter; change both at ca. 6K miles; regular air filter change like every other oil change or more if dusty; be religious about recommended turbo cool down practices. Probably a good idea to check the airbox to turbo hose for a split down by the turbo at each oil change and while you are at it check the turbo fan shaft for play.

If you see oil dumping out of the exhaust park it immediately as you have lost the turbo shaft bearing and are venting oil under pressure which as geordi knows can take the lower end of your engine out in short order.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:14 pm

painemann wrote:

Hoosier CRD wrote:

In all due respect to everyone here, why are you replacing a perfectly good turbo?

I sell these turbos, and Garrett turbos in general. Along with Holset (Cummins) and Borg-Warner. This turbo is fine. You want to hear it when you are going down the road. These turbos are spec'd to the engine by Garrett for VM. Specifically, VM told Garrett what they wanted and Garrett built it for them. This is the same scenario for any manufacturer and vendor.

Some shaft play is NORMAL. The oil has to have room to get in between the journal bearing and shaft in order to do it's job.

I'll send the one I remove to you, you can use it!

Thanks, I'll take it!

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:33 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Well any bearing can fail at any time with some or no warning. Good oil; good oil filter; change both at ca. 6K miles; regular air filter change like every other oil change or more if dusty; be religious about recommended turbo cool down practices. Probably a good idea to check the airbox to turbo hose for a split down by the turbo at each oil change and while you are at it check the turbo fan shaft for play.

If you see oil dumping out of the exhaust park it immediately as you have lost the turbo shaft bearing and are venting oil under pressure which as geordi knows can take the lower end of your engine out in short order.

I agree with you on the above 100%. In this case, that has not happened.

To date, my CRD has 147K miles on. I bought it approx. 79K in Sept. 2011. I have the original turbo on my mongrel with quite likely similar shaft movement. I'll replace it when it goes Tango Uniform, or a similarly near-fatal derivative thereof, not before. For the record, I beat the snot out of my CRD. I'm talking 4,000 RPM shifts, black smoke out the back, "Italian Tune Ups" regularly. I also use good oil and change it at 6,250.

Turbo failure can come about for many different reasons, oil starvation-via hot shutdown and coking of the oil in the supply line being the primary culprit. If any of you are truly worried about the life of your turbo, I highly suggest P/N 05142607AA (Oil Supply Line) with corresponding copper washers and a new banjo bolt.

Finally, you don't have to believe anything that I am telling you. But do yourself a favor and take your suspect turbo, or at the very least show them the video posted at the top of this thread, to a REPUTABLE diesel specialty shop in your area, preferably one that rebuilds turbos, Garrett included. Ask them what they think about the shaft movement. Then re-read my postings. I have nothing to gain by lying to you.

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

I ordered these, with any luck they are better then the factory ones. I looked up a little info on them and they are mainly used on BMW's of some vintage. Didn't know what else to use, so should I use anti-seize with them ????
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=117&products_id=1183

Hoosier CRD, you are correct that most shops will tell you to wait until it fails to replace it! Hell even our favorite tuner guy said to do the same, and I am sure that a good percentage failures will result in simply lost power.
I am very paranoid when it comes to this Jeep after reading all the catastrophic engine damage cause by turbo failure, I don't think I need to explain what I'm talking about I'm sure most everyone reading this has an idea on what I am talking about! Being paranoid as I am with the jeep I figured I would not take the chance, the cost for a new turbo is nothing compared to engine replace or repair! I am obviously not the only one that feels this way if you read this whole topic most of the initial reply's were "PARK IT".

I didn't want to spend $80+ on a new oil feed line, it appears to be a stainless line that could be cleaned with little effort. Why do you recommend replacement of the line other then it being dirty?

It's out with out breaking any studs, I am not normally this lucky!

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:05 am

Can we get a video of play test in a brand new turbo?

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:54 am

painemann wrote:

Hoosier CRD, you are correct that most shops will tell you to wait until it fails to replace it! Hell even our favorite tuner guy said to do the same, and I am sure that a good percentage failures will result in simply lost power.
I am very paranoid when it comes to this Jeep after reading all the catastrophic engine damage cause by turbo failure, I don't think I need to explain what I'm talking about I'm sure most everyone reading this has an idea on what I am talking about! Being paranoid as I am with the jeep I figured I would not take the chance, the cost for a new turbo is nothing compared to engine replace or repair! I am obviously not the only one that feels this way if you read this whole topic most of the initial reply's were "PARK IT".

I didn't want to spend $80+ on a new oil feed line, it appears to be a stainless line that could be cleaned with little effort. Why do you recommend replacement of the line other then it being dirty?

I'm all for preventative maintenance. I have also replaced parts prior to ultimate failure for the sake of not having to do it in an inopportune setting. I have also seen/talked about turbo failures on Liberty CRDs where it was nothing more than a breakdown with a failed component. Turbos do not always fail alike, many do, some don't.

Here in my office, I have a box of CRD parts, for when the need arises, I like to call it prior planning. One of those parts is an oil supply line. I count four (4) bends in that line and would be more convinced that it is a cad-plated steel rather than stainless.

When a turbo does fail, or gets swapped out, one is "right there" at adjacent parts that are much easier to replace with bigger components out of the way. (How difficult was it to remove that turbo?) Given that the oil supply line is quite literally the life-blood of the turbo, it too is cheap insurance. Given that our unit has four (4) bends, I can see how it could be very hard to clean of any blockage. Coked oil is nasty stuff. It's baked on (or in) nooks and crevices and can be very difficult to clear. Realizing that you are installing a "new-to-you" turbo, it is still a good idea to at least run some brake parts cleaner, carb cleaner or pipe cleaners through the line to make sure that you know that it is clear. When one replaces a turbo with a new unit, it is penny wise and pound foolish to let the oil line remain. Again, cheap insurance. Think of it this way: You mean to tell me that you just spent $XXXX.XX dollars on a new turbo and you are not changing out the $XX.XX oil line? I see/hear of this happening all the time. I also see alot of premature failures of new turbos due to oil starvation because somebody got a case of the "Phukets". As I said previously, oil starvation is the #1 reason for turbo failure. Catastrophic failure is #2. As we used to say on the line, "It ain't sitting in my driveway." The choice is yours.

I can try to get a video of a new unit and the shaft movement therein. Admittedly, I have never posted a video to the web. I don't even know how to start that adventure. If I can get some help with posting the video, PM me please, then I am happy to show what a new turbo does and talk you through how to test yours. I believe that we have a new CRD turbo in stock.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:04 am

Hoosier CRD wrote:

painemann wrote:

<snip>

I didn't want to spend $80+ on a new oil feed line, it appears to be a stainless line that could be cleaned with little effort. Why do you recommend replacement of the line other then it being dirty?

<snip> I count four (4) bends in that line and would be more convinced that it is a cad-plated steel rather than stainless.

When a turbo does fail, or gets swapped out, one is "right there" at adjacent parts that are much easier to replace with bigger components out of the way. (How difficult was it to remove that turbo?) Given that the oil supply line is quite literally the life-blood of the turbo, it too is cheap insurance. Given that our unit has four (4) bends, I can see how it could be very hard to clean of any blockage. Coked oil is nasty stuff. It's baked on (or in) nooks and crevices and can be very difficult to clear. Realizing that you are installing a "new-to-you" turbo, it is still a good idea to at least run some brake parts cleaner, carb cleaner or pipe cleaners through the line to make sure that you know that it is clear. When one replaces a turbo with a new unit, it is penny wise and pound foolish to let the oil line remain. Again, cheap insurance. Think of it this way: You mean to tell me that you just spent $XXXX.XX dollars on a new turbo and you are not changing out the $XX.XX oil line? <snip> As I said previously, oil starvation is the #1 reason for turbo failure. Catastrophic failure is #2. As we used to say on the line, "It ain't sitting in my driveway." The choice is yours. <snip>

I agree with changing out the oil feed line when changing the turbo. This makes sense.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:00 am

Why? It's either clogged/restricted or it's not and that is easy to check. If clogged or restricted you have longer term issues that replacing the line won't fix. That said I do wonder why the huge gravity feed return line has a flex section and the feed line does not even though the turbo is mounted to the engine in such a way as there should be no flex.

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

papaindigo wrote:

Why? It's either clogged/restricted or it's not and that is easy to check. If clogged or restricted you have longer term issues that replacing the line won't fix. That said I do wonder why the huge gravity feed return line has a flex section and the feed line does not even though the turbo is mounted to the engine in such a way as there should be no flex.

The oil return line on my jeep does not have the flex section, it is a solid tube.

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

The new turbo went in Friday, it was in and running about 3 hours after the UPS guys showed up. It could be done faster (I like to take my time and double check stuff as I go)as it is not a tough job if the manifold studs cooperate, and mine did

Big thanks to Jim and Jim for helping me out on this!

Bad Turbo?? Need some opinions, Video included of shaft play

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