Blown Head Gasket Discussion

SargeIndustries · **Posted:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:38 pm

Mileage when it happened: HG replaced at 135,000. The low coolant light had becoming on for probably two years(at least).

Type of Coolant (be honest): HOAT

Do you drive it like you stole it?: sometimes, gotta keep that turbo clean...

Were you towing?: nope

Ever done Rockers/Lifters?: nope

Did you have to do Rockers/Lifters after it happened?: nope

Oil and change interval: 5000 miles

Major Modifications (e.g. EHM, ProVent, etc.): ecotune

Was your Thermostat working when it happened, or did you have an In-Line Mod?: yep

What type of weather was it?: NA

Any evidence at all you ignored? (Low coolant, etc?): The low coolant light had becoming on for probably two years(at least). Why pull the head if it only uses a gallon of coolant a year…

I am a firm believer that over boost situations are stretching the TTY stock bolts. When they are in their yield state, they do not spring back. They simply stretch a few thousandths, and that is all it takes to leak compression into the coolant system. I have noticed two situations that cause over boost. One being a gunked up EGR valve that doesn’t open to allow exhaust into the motor(when the ACV is closing) causing the turbo to deadhead the ACV and then dump 40 pounds of boost into the motor all at once when the ACV finally swings open. The other is sticky turbo veins. If they swing open into carbon build up on the turbo wall(and wedge there temporarily), it only takes a moment to build 40 pounds of boost. Everybody should have a boost gauge on their CRD…

Wobbly · **Posted:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:56 pm

The Ford 6.0 head gasket problem is related to the EGR as follows:
1. The oil cooler heat transfer passages clog due to cooling system debris and/ or silicate deposits from the coolant
2. Coolant overheats due to reduced flow through cooler
3. Overheated coolant from the oil cooler circulates through the EGR cooler where the coolant is additionally overheated by the EGR gases
4. EGR cooler is overheated and ruptures sending coolant into the cylinders
5. Coolant flashes into steam and over-pressurizes the cylinder and head volume
6. Head bolts stretch and don't recover
7. Head gasket leaks coolant

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:32 pm

flash7210 wrote:

Could be a combination of GDE tune and stretched head bolts causing the head to lift.

I think MedicPatriot blew his head gasket after the water pump started leaking.

No I never blew my head gasket. I let the mechanic pull the head back when I thought I fried my engine. Turns out it was only the rockers from the engine coming out of time and there was no heat damage at all. HG was replaced simply because they removed the head.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:43 am

SargeIndustries wrote:

<snip>
I am a firm believer that over boost situations are stretching the TTY stock bolts. When they are in their yield state, they do not spring back. They simply stretch a few thousandths, and that is all it takes to leak compression into the coolant system. <snip>

With respect, Sarge, I know that these "TTY" bolts do not in fact yield. The reason that I know this is that when you compress the head to the point that the "TTY" bolts should yield you have crushed the head. You may well be right as to the proximate cause of the overpressure, but the TTY bolts don't yield, the HEAD does. The bolts crush the aluminum in the recess at the top, giving you the play you mentioned. Look at the pictures I posted in the ARP stud thread of the 'as-found' condition of the bolt recesses. If you look carefully, that bolt head bears on only a portion of the area within the recess. One reason I believe that ARP studs are a better solution is that the ARP washer provides much more surface area for the head to push on.

As stated previously, a longer conventional TTY bolt with a hardened washer would resolve this issue just as well as the ARP studs do. I looked at using some of the Volvo diesel TTY head bolts, which have full width hardened washers, but they are about 7 MM too short. Sigh.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:00 pm

I don't believe that pressure under a cold radiator cap is a good indication of a blown head
gasket.

This morning I popped the hood and opened up the radiator cap.
I could hear a slight release of pressure.
After driving to work, 18 miles (about 20min), I checked the radiator again with the engine
idling.
Same slight release of pressure. No visible bubbles flowing anywhere in the tank.

I think that the coolant tank is somehow able to maintain slight pressure, even when cold.
And if you think about it. If there was a head gasket leak, at engine shut off, any pressure in
the cooling system should be released through that leak.

Am I missing something?

Has anybody tried pressure testing their cooling system to check for gasket leaks?

Smacker · **Posted:** Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:04 pm

I have been losing coolant for probably a year now and have and have come to the conclusion (After many hrs of reading this forum) that the Head bolts have yielded enough to let coolant slip by after shutting down and burn off on startup. (Italian Steamer) When I drive it now I release the pressure from the coolant tank at shut down and I get no steam on startup and lose very little coolant. I am starting to gather parts and tools to install ARP studs, TB, pulleys , Water pump and replace all rubber hoses. Not sure about head gasket unless I can find one without buying the OEM TTY headbolts. Really looking forward to it....

Mileage when it happened:140,000
Type of Coolant (be honest): hoat for 140 universal for the last 20.
Do you drive it like you stole it?: Every chance I get to keep turbo clean and functioning well.
Were you towing?: no
Ever done Rockers/Lifters?:no
Did you have to do Rockers/Lifters after it happened?: will see!
Oil and change interval:Mobil 1 0W-40 and some Rotella T-6 5W-40 every 6-8000 miles.
Major Modifications (e.g. EHM, ProVent, etc.): GDE Eco tune, lift pump
Was your Thermostat working when it happened, or did you have an In-Line Mod?: OEM Siezed open, now running inline.
What type of weather was it?: who knows?
Any evidence at all you ignored? (Low coolant, etc?): Has never over heated That I know of and I am the original owner.

I am not sure what makes me keep working on this lil tractor! I have visited car dealers numerous times with bad intentions and have left liking my Liberty even More. I run 3-6000 HP diesels at work everyday and can't seem to get back into gassers. If my Liberty didn't put a smile on my face every time I asked, I would have gotten rid of it a long time ago. But there are too many things it does well that I can't replicate in any other vehicle. Must be a Jeep thing!!

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:20 pm

Flash,

There should absolutely be no pressure under the cap. NONE.

I pressure tested my cooling system when I was going through the HG leak so to confirm that I had a leak and the pressure didn't drop, but my Hg still was blown. At first it is hard to detect but as time goes on and the leak becomes more evident, that's when the pressure tester began to confirm the leak.

Tighten down those TTY bolts now and you may be able to avoid a major disaster.

Smaker, Keith at GDE may have a HG.

SargeIndustries · **Posted:** Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:31 pm

You can buy just the gasket off ebay. They are from Europe...

audiboy86 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:51 am

I also pressure tested my system with about 3 different types of testers but it wasnt until I started the jeep with my resivor cap replace with a pressure tester and watched the pressure rise until it was 12 pounds over normal before settling did i know my head gasket was blown. But if you done want to put the money into a good quailty pressure tester or know someone who has one there are companys who make kits to detect exhaust gasses in coolant which is also definitive proof of a head gasket leak.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:43 pm

audiboy86 wrote:

it wasnt until I started the jeep with my resivor cap replace with a pressure tester and watched the pressure rise until it was 12 pounds over normal before settling did i know my head gasket was blown.

Excellent idea for a test.
So I tried it today as soon as I came home from work.
Engine was at operating temp and I kept it idling when I pulled it into my garage.
I slowly removed the reservoir cap and heard a slight release of pressure.
I attached my radiator pressure tester to the reservoir and just let it idle.
I carefully monitored coolant temp using the TorquePro app and a IR temp probe.
Here are my observations:
The cap is rated at 12 psi.
The highest pressure I saw was about 6 psi.
The highest temperature I saw was 205 deg f.
The electric fan turned on at 205 deg. (I removed the mechanical fan)
The electric fan turned off at about 180 deg.
At 180 deg, the coolant pressure was down to about 1 or 2 psi.

I am now confident that my head gasket and cooling system are in good shape.

jburford · **Posted:** Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:49 pm

Sorry not so fast. I had coolant pressure tests and leak tests done on my engine. None of which showed a problem. Only while driving under load did I loose coolant. After tear down I clearly had a head gasket leak.

If you're loosing coolant and have pressure under the coolant reservoir cap with a cold engine then you have a head gasket leaks. Personal, I wish I had done the ARP stubs once I verified these conditions. I believe that would have sealed the leak.

John B

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:17 am

The point I was trying to make is that pressure under a cold radiator cap is not a clear
indication of head gasket failure. Unless you are able to quantify that pressure, or that cold
pressure is combined with coolant loss.
My tests seem to indicate that the cooling system is able to retain about 1 psi pressure when
cold. I am not experiencing any discernible amount of coolant loss.

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:58 am

flash7210 wrote:

The point I was trying to make is that pressure under a cold radiator cap is not a clear
indication of head gasket failure. Unless you are able to quantify that pressure, or that cold
pressure is combined with coolant loss.
My tests seem to indicate that the cooling system is able to retain about 1 psi pressure when
cold. I am not experiencing any discernible amount of coolant loss.

Flash, neither were we losing coolant.

You should have NO pressure under the cap, especially when the vehicle has been sitting for an extended period of time and the cooling system is cold.

Now is the time to take preventive measures......tighten those head bolts or replace the TTY bolts with ARP studs, or you can always wait to do it later at a higher cost.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:50 am

racertracer wrote:

flash7210 wrote:

The point I was trying to make is that pressure under a cold radiator cap is not a clear
indication of head gasket failure. Unless you are able to quantify that pressure, or that cold
pressure is combined with coolant loss.
My tests seem to indicate that the cooling system is able to retain about 1 psi pressure when
cold. I am not experiencing any discernible amount of coolant loss.

Flash, neither were we losing coolant.

You should have NO pressure under the cap, especially when the vehicle has been sitting for an extended period of time and the cooling system is cold.

Now is the time to take preventive measures......tighten those head bolts or replace the TTY bolts with ARP studs, or you can always wait to do it later at a higher cost.

This is what I don't understand.
If you were not loosing coolant.
Did not have bubbles into the coolant tank.
Did not have excess pressure (engine hot) in the coolant tank.
Did not have steam/antifreeze smell in exhaust.
Did not have coolant mixing with oil in the crankcase.

What was your evidence that the head gasket was blown?
Just a little bit of pressure under a cold radiator cap?
Please help me understand.

I measured 6 psi with engine idling at 205 deg f.
About 2 psi, engine idling and cooled to 180 deg f.
I consider this to be normal for any engine at these operating temperatures.

I'm not trying to be stubborn here. Tell me what I am missing.

(another possibility is that when I open my cold radiator cap, what I hear is not pressure
but vacuum, which might actually make more sense)

jburford · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:14 pm

Technically, the head gasket is not failing, but rather the head bolts are not clamping properly. The leak only manifest under engine load when combustion gasses escape past the head gasket into the coolant system. A loss of coolant only happens when the flow of combustion gasses exceeds the coolant systems ability to de-aerate exhaust from coolant and both get pushed out past the overflow reservoir. Look for coolant along the frame rail by the front passenager door when you stop driving.

Retaining pressure under the coolant reservoir cap with a cold engine is your early warning. If you are loosing coolant past the overflow reservoir then the repair will likely require having the head and cylinders walls inspected for damage.

John B

Sub_01 · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:54 pm **Posts:** 3

Hey guys I am new Crd owner. Just got it with mysterious coolant leak after wot driving. It took me a little to find the source but I found it and started to reaserch why. At first I was like sweet bad cap but it turns out to be more than that.
I read up a lot on the posts, lots of interesting info. I also found crd manual online and read through it. The stretching tty bolts make sense but why some cars do it and some don't.
Here is couple of interesting things I read from the jeep manual.

1. It said the was is not serviceable but there is a min spec for the head thickness. Kind of confusing.
2. When replacing the head gasket you are soposed to measure the sleeve depth and depending on the reading you get you have to pick the correct thickness of the head gasket.
(Does it mean that when you use a wrong gasket it will fail too soon)
3. Egr everyone hates it but it might do engine good. Manual says that the egr lowers combustion temp there for the engine does not get so hot. (So is it protectin the engine from overheating. So if you have gde installed you might be doing ba things to the engine )

These are some things to consider. Let me know what you guys think. I don't know if I will keep the car. I like it a lot and I am willing to replace the head gasket but I would like to have piece of mind that I permanently fixed the coolant leak.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:49 pm

jburford wrote:

Technically, the head gasket is not failing, but rather the head bolts are not clamping properly. The leak only manifest under engine load when combustion gasses escape past the head gasket into the coolant system. A loss of coolant only happens when the flow of combustion gasses exceeds the coolant systems ability to de-aerate exhaust from coolant and both get pushed out past the overflow reservoir. Look for coolant along the frame rail by the front passenger door when you stop driving.

Agree completely with all this. There are varying theories about WHY the bolts are not properly clamping the head, but this IS what is happening.

jburford wrote:

Retaining pressure under the coolant reservoir cap with a cold engine is your early warning.

Again, agree

jburford wrote:

If you are loosing coolant past the overflow reservoir then the repair will likely require having the head and cylinders walls inspected for damage.
John B

This ain't necessarily so. I was losing small amounts of coolant and successfully replaced the 'TTY' bolts with studs one by one without removing the head or the HG.

I have not put a single drop of coolant into the reservoir since I filled it after completing the work. It's been several months now, and over 5k miles and the thing uses NO coolant now. See the ARP stud thread for more information. I think that there are now at least six or seven people who have successfully done this mod.

jburford · **Posted:** Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:59 pm

Here's a close up the TTY head bolt seat. Notice the aluminum that has yielded under the bolt head.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:35 pm

Yup. Same thing that R2.0 and I have both noted, the head does yield and this is what causes problems. See reposted picture-
http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b59 ... ep2006.jpg

This is a somewhat blurry image but you can see the ring of deformed aluminum.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:04 am

How do you suggest dealing with that ridge when installing ARPs with larger diameter washers?

DOC

Blown Head Gasket Discussion

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