Steering wheel hydraulic system suddenly not working

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

I started the engine today and the wheel was almost like a rock, almost impossible to turn. It was weird because it was working ok a few minutes before and suddenly after stopping and then starting the engine again, it seems like the steering wheel hydraulic system was not working anymore. Could it be the fluid? Does it stop working at all the steering wheel system due to the fluid going below a certain level? Actually I didn't check if the fluid is low yet. I still have to locate where the reservoir is and check.
In case it is the fluid, is it just refilling that's it? Can I continue driving like this even if the wheel is really hard to turn?
Thank you.

Mine is a Liberty 2.8 CRD from 2005.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:00 am

Power steering reservoir is right behind the air filter box.

Causes for stopping working:
1. serp belt broken of came off - fix
2. insufficient fluid - add fluid, crank up, turn steering wheel side to side, don't hold it on the stops, repeat until reach proper fluid level.
3. blown power steering hose(s) - fix
4. blown power steering pump or steering head - fix

Can be driven without power steering but not advisable as steering will be extremely difficult; likely harder than an older no power steering vehicle as today's vehicle steering is designed to be power not like older systems that were designed for power assistance.

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

papaindigo wrote:

Power steering reservoir is right behind the air filter box.

Causes for stopping working:
1. serp belt broken of came off - fix
2. insufficient fluid - add fluid, crank up, turn steering wheel side to side, don't hold it on the stops, repeat until reach proper fluid level.
3. blown power steering hose(s) - fix
4. blown power steering pump or steering head - fix

Can be driven without power steering but not advisable as steering will be extremely difficult; likely harder than an older no power steering vehicle as today's vehicle steering is designed to be power not like older systems that were designed for power assistance.

I just checked the fluid and the level is ok. I see at what I suppose is the power steering pump and hoses but it all looks ok from the outside. This is what I see:

Is that the pump, the one on the left side of the reservoir?
So, do I have to replace the Power steering pump to make the hydraulic system work?
Thank you.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:17 am

The level appears to be ok; sitting between max cold and max hot lines which is where mine has been forever when cold.

No the thing to the left is the vacuum reservoir that operates the turbo variable vanes.

The power steering pump is located just below and a bit left of the serpentine belt tensioner on the front of the engine. It is a DIY servicable part (if you have not already gone to Sam's NOOB guide and download the FSMs and parts manuals you need to do so - get both 05 and 06 FSMs as 05 lacks diesel cooling system data and diagnostics but has illustration keys while 06 is the reverse). BUT absent the proper pressure/flow testing tools you won't know if that will fix the problem which also could be at the steering end of the system. If there are other ways to check for proper pressure/flow I don't know them.

I'd bet on the pump being the problem but won't spend your $s on that bet.

Since you have fluid though we can assume the PS lines themselves are ok.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:23 am

You can have many issues.A line could be bad internally and would cause low or no PS and would not be noticeable from looking at the hoses.Your PS pump could have died or the rack itself could have blown internally.Without hooking up a PS pressure tester(not cheap) it really is a guessing game.

Start the engine and take the cap off the PS reservoir,look at the fluid for movement and use a high powered flashlight to see if you see any shiny particles in the fluid.If you see shiny particals just replace the PS pump and rack and remove all the lines,flush them clean and make sure no internal restrictions are present.

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

tjkj2002 wrote:

You can have many issues.A line could be bad internally and would cause low or no PS and would not be noticeable from looking at the hoses.Your PS pump could have died or the rack itself could have blown internally.Without hooking up a PS pressure tester(not cheap) it really is a guessing game.

Start the engine and take the cap off the PS reservoir,look at the fluid for movement and use a high powered flashlight to see if you see any shiny particles in the fluid.If you see shiny particals just replace the PS pump and rack and remove all the lines,flush them clean and make sure no internal restrictions are present.

So, you mean I should buy a new pump?

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:25 pm

hgrimberg wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

You can have many issues.A line could be bad internally and would cause low or no PS and would not be noticeable from looking at the hoses.Your PS pump could have died or the rack itself could have blown internally.Without hooking up a PS pressure tester(not cheap) it really is a guessing game.

Start the engine and take the cap off the PS reservoir,look at the fluid for movement and use a high powered flashlight to see if you see any shiny particles in the fluid.If you see shiny particals just replace the PS pump and rack and remove all the lines,flush them clean and make sure no internal restrictions are present.

So, you mean I should buy a new pump?

I'm not there so I can not tell you but if the pump or rack took a dump internally and there is metal particles in the fluid you should replace both the pump and rack and flush the lines out real good.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:51 pm

Just to wade back into the discussion. It's a Cherokee so hgrimberg is outside of the US and, I presume, Canada for whatever that's worth.

If I am reading tjkj2002 correctly:
1. after checking fluid level which you have already done you should crank up; pop the top of the PS fluid reservoir; look for fluid movement (may be a clue as to condition of lines); and use that strongly light to look for shiny metal particles (might could use a piece of tubing or soda straw to get a small sample of fluid to spread on a white piece of paper to look at).
2. if there are metal particles that's a likely sign you have serious internal PS pump and steering rack problems to the point both need replacing and the lines need flushing before a reinstall to get rid of an metal particles in the line.
3. if not you probably need to find a decent local shop, this is a PS issue not a specific CRD issue, that can put an gauge on the system and determine if a) the PS is bad; b) one or both lines are clogged; or c) the steering rack is bad. Then go from there. Could be an internal line problem or one or more blown pump or steering rack seals.

PS - upon further thought best not drive it at all or only to the shop, if close, until fixed. I'm used to older PS systems that are not integrated into the steering rack like things are now. In the "ancient" (late 1960s) days power steering consisted of the pump, lines, and a "slave" cylinder that mounted to the frame at one end and the steering arm at the other. In that design it was really cheap and easy to replace the slave cylinder so any added driving that damaged the slave cylinder was of little concern. In today's systems the steering assembly is pricey so avoiding extra driving in hopes of avoiding damage to that assembly is a good idea.

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

papaindigo wrote:

Just to wade back into the discussion. It's a Cherokee so hgrimberg is outside of the US and, I presume, Canada for whatever that's worth.

If I am reading tjkj2002 correctly:
1. after checking fluid level which you have already done you should crank up; pop the top of the PS fluid reservoir; look for fluid movement (may be a clue as to condition of lines); and use that strongly light to look for shiny metal particles (might could use a piece of tubing or soda straw to get a small sample of fluid to spread on a white piece of paper to look at).
2. if there are metal particles that's a likely sign you have serious internal PS pump and steering rack problems to the point both need replacing and the lines need flushing before a reinstall to get rid of an metal particles in the line.
3. if not you probably need to find a decent local shop, this is a PS issue not a specific CRD issue, that can put an gauge on the system and determine if a) the PS is bad; b) one or both lines are clogged; or c) the steering rack is bad. Then go from there. Could be an internal line problem or one or more blown pump or steering rack seals.

PS - upon further thought best not drive it at all or only to the shop, if close, until fixed. I'm used to older PS systems that are not integrated into the steering rack like things are now. In the "ancient" (late 1960s) days power steering consisted of the pump, lines, and a "slave" cylinder that mounted to the frame at one end and the steering arm at the other. In that design it was really cheap and easy to replace the slave cylinder so any added driving that damaged the slave cylinder was of little concern. In today's systems the steering assembly is pricey so avoiding extra driving in hopes of avoiding damage to that assembly is a good idea.

I am in Argentina, BTW. I should drive 20 miles just to get to the shop and if the mechanic tells me to come back some other day cause he is busy, then I will have to drive back.
I'll check the fluid after cranking up to see movement and/or shiny particles.
Thank you!

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

Checking the engine, I just found that the serpentine belt is totally loose! That might be the problem! I will have to see why that happened...

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:01 pm

That would certainly kill power steering, AC, and alternator output. It's not unheard of for a serp belt to either break or pop off the belt tensioner (happened to me on another vehicle in pouring rain) but in the latter case you need to check your belt tensioner. If it's leaning into the PS pulley the tensioner needs to be replaced like now. If not once it's back together I'd recommend you check for a bad alternator clutch pulley which can cause serp belt problems and do in a tensioner. Look for lots of red dust on/around the pulley and at idle look down the serp belt from the alternator pulley to the tensioner and if the latter is bouncing, as opposed to barely twitching, the alternator pulley needs to be replaced.

Don't know the best option for pulley replacement where you are. Just pulley can be replaced but stick with OEM or Litens or you can put on a new alternator (up here like AutoZone sells a rebuilt lifetime warranty alternator for like $150). If you go the pulley route there is a post about how to make a DIY pulley removal tool cheap from hardware store parts.

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

papaindigo wrote:

That would certainly kill power steering, AC, and alternator output. It's not unheard of for a serp belt to either break or pop off the belt tensioner (happened to me on another vehicle in pouring rain) but in the latter case you need to check your belt tensioner. If it's leaning into the PS pulley the tensioner needs to be replaced like now. If not once it's back together I'd recommend you check for a bad alternator clutch pulley which can cause serp belt problems and do in a tensioner. Look for lots of red dust on/around the pulley and at idle look down the serp belt from the alternator pulley to the tensioner and if the latter is bouncing, as opposed to barely twitching, the alternator pulley needs to be replaced.

Don't know the best option for pulley replacement where you are. Just pulley can be replaced but stick with OEM or Litens or you can put on a new alternator (up here like AutoZone sells a rebuilt lifetime warranty alternator for like $150). If you go the pulley route there is a post about how to make a DIY pulley removal tool cheap from hardware store parts.

Well, this car had an accident. The previous owner crashed it and he had to replace a Serpentine Belt Roller Idler. He replaced it with a generic one totally different than the original one and drove with it for a long time. Even the diameter was different. It was actually smaller. When I realized about that, I bought the original one (http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_ ... ug8meui0a6) and replaced it. I took out the symmetrical one and also realized that the bearings on that one were not rolling well, so I just bought a second one that I still didn't replace.
Also, I realized the alternator had a slightly bent axle probably due to the car crash as well...

user113 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:30 pm

Saludos, hgrimberg,

If you can, remove the fan shroud and fan, and sight down the pulleys. Edgewise they should all be flat, parallel and in the same plane. With the engine running, they should not wobble, either. And if you can get a good look at it while it's running, the tensioner should be rock steady (not bouncing) . If anything is out of place you may need to replace the pulley itself, a bracket holding a misaligned accessory, or the accessory itself. Like, a wobbling alternator pulley on a bent shaft does not bode well for longevity.

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

It looks like the power steering pump pulley is stucked and it doesnt rotate...

Saludos!

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

papaindigo wrote:

That would certainly kill power steering, AC, and alternator output. It's not unheard of for a serp belt to either break or pop off the belt tensioner (happened to me on another vehicle in pouring rain) but in the latter case you need to check your belt tensioner. If it's leaning into the PS pulley the tensioner needs to be replaced like now. If not once it's back together I'd recommend you check for a bad alternator clutch pulley which can cause serp belt problems and do in a tensioner. Look for lots of red dust on/around the pulley and at idle look down the serp belt from the alternator pulley to the tensioner and if the latter is bouncing, as opposed to barely twitching, the alternator pulley needs to be replaced.

Don't know the best option for pulley replacement where you are. Just pulley can be replaced but stick with OEM or Litens or you can put on a new alternator (up here like AutoZone sells a rebuilt lifetime warranty alternator for like $150). If you go the pulley route there is a post about how to make a DIY pulley removal tool cheap from hardware store parts.

It is the poly-v tensioner that i have to replace. The mechanic is saying it is damaged.
The problem now is that I can't find the part. The mechanic said it is the Ploy-v tensioner part number: 000518000-2. But I looked into the parts fiche and this number doesn't exist...

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

hgrimberg wrote:

papaindigo wrote:

That would certainly kill power steering, AC, and alternator output. It's not unheard of for a serp belt to either break or pop off the belt tensioner (happened to me on another vehicle in pouring rain) but in the latter case you need to check your belt tensioner. If it's leaning into the PS pulley the tensioner needs to be replaced like now. If not once it's back together I'd recommend you check for a bad alternator clutch pulley which can cause serp belt problems and do in a tensioner. Look for lots of red dust on/around the pulley and at idle look down the serp belt from the alternator pulley to the tensioner and if the latter is bouncing, as opposed to barely twitching, the alternator pulley needs to be replaced.

Don't know the best option for pulley replacement where you are. Just pulley can be replaced but stick with OEM or Litens or you can put on a new alternator (up here like AutoZone sells a rebuilt lifetime warranty alternator for like $150). If you go the pulley route there is a post about how to make a DIY pulley removal tool cheap from hardware store parts.

It is the poly-v tensioner that i have to replace. The mechanic is saying it is damaged.
The problem now is that I can't find the part. The mechanic said it is the Ploy-v tensioner part number: 000518000-2. But I looked into the parts fiche and this number doesn't exist...

Nevermind, i found it.

user113 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:03 pm

So the power steering pump is OK after all? I wonder how many more parts on the front of your engine were damaged in the accident. BTW, you can get the serpentine belt tensioner from id parts for around $140.

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

user113 wrote:

So the power steering pump is OK after all? I wonder how many more parts on the front of your engine were damaged in the accident. BTW, you can get the serpentine belt tensioner from id parts for around $140.

Yes, perfectly ok now. Thank you for asking.
The mechanic said it was not due to the accident and that the tensioner got broken just because of milage.
I bought the whole kit from id parts. Great deal. Do you recommend other website to buy parts for the body like the front bumper? I have a ding and so was thinking about replacing the whole bumper because repairing it will never look good with this gray plastic...
Thank you,

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:03 pm

I don't have any suggestions on the bumper other than to check into wrecked car parts near you.

I'm a bit concerned about your power steering "fix" though. Clearly you had a bad serpentine belt tensioner and it's certainly possible it simply died of age/use. However, you also mentioned a bent alternator shaft and did not post anything about the alternator being fixed. As several of us have noted a problem with the alternator shaft or alternator pulley (including the use of an improper pulley) is a well known source of alternator damage. I'd strongly recommend you look back thru this discussion on how to check pulley alignment and alternator pulley problems to make sure you don't have an underlying issue there that might cause that shiny new serpentine tensioner to die and early death.

hgrimberg · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 pm **Posts:** 363

papaindigo wrote:

I don't have any suggestions on the bumper other than to check into wrecked car parts near you.

I'm a bit concerned about your power steering "fix" though. Clearly you had a bad serpentine belt tensioner and it's certainly possible it simply died of age/use. However, you also mentioned a bent alternator shaft and did not post anything about the alternator being fixed. As several of us have noted a problem with the alternator shaft or alternator pulley (including the use of an improper pulley) is a well known source of alternator damage. I'd strongly recommend you look back thru this discussion on how to check pulley alignment and alternator pulley problems to make sure you don't have an underlying issue there that might cause that shiny new serpentine tensioner to die and early death.

Well, yes, the alternator pulley was fixed by welding it to the alternator. It seems the PO had to replace it and since imported car parts in this country are very expensive, the mechanic made a custom fix of it. In any case, since I realized about this long time go, I already have ordered an original alternator pulley and replaced it now that I replaced the serpentine belt and the tensioner.
The mechanic says that the alternator is ok and doesn't have anything bent on it, it was just that welded pulley.
Another odd thing, was that the old serpentine belt was thinner, like 1/4" thinner than the original one... The PO maybe used a belt from another car.
So now the serpentine belt, the tensioner and the alternator pulley are new and original.

Steering wheel hydraulic system suddenly not working

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