No heat, intermittent Heat <Problem Solved>

flman · **Posted:** Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:29 pm

racertracer wrote:

flman wrote:

I got a few PM email reply's from a couple of the members hear. I am thinking a blown head gasket is causing aeration of the cooling system, and hydronic heat does not circulate with excess air.

Here is a video of my Rad cap being removed on a cold engine, my other CRD does not do this, does any one else have these symptoms on cold cap removal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Go4FC0riQs&feature=youtu.be

It sure looks like it.

But to be sure, test it by using a head gasket leak detector form NAPA.

Yeah, I have one on order, did it work for you when you were having a head gasket problem?

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:14 am

flman wrote:

did it work for you when you were having a head gasket problem?

Yes, it is hard to see the difference but you need to hold the tester in place sealing the radiator fill hole for about 5 to 10 minutes or more. The color of the fluid will change from dark blue to a faint dark green.

There should be no pressure under that cap. I will go out on a limb and say that I am sure your problem is due to a failed head gasket or cracked head because there is no other area where the pressure could be coming from.

I too couldn't believe it when it happened to me. The jeep ran great and sounded great, the leak had to be external I said to myself and just kept driving it causing more harm to the head.

The studs are a good thing to do in order to fix the HG leak as LMWatbullrun did, only if the leak is at the head gasket and is not a crack in the head. And if Geordi is correct, then reusing and re-torqueing the existing OEM bolts to 120lbs for the inside bolts and 130lbs for the outside, is another option that may do the trick. I would still chase and clean the threads and use the ARP lube though.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:41 am

racertracer wrote:

flman wrote:

did it work for you when you were having a head gasket problem?

Yes, it is hard to see the difference but you need to hold the tester in place sealing the radiator fill hole for about 5 to 10 minutes or more. The color of the fluid will change from dark blue to a faint dark green.

There should be no pressure under that cap. I will go out on a limb and say that I am sure your problem is due to a failed head gasket because there is no other area where the pressure could be coming from.
I too couldn't believe it when it happened to me. The jeep ran great and sounded great, the leak had to be external I said to myself and just kept driving it causing more harm to the head.

The studs are a good thing to do in order to fix the HG leak as LMWatbullrun did, only if the leak is at the head gasket and is not a crack in the head. And if Geordi is correct, then reusing and re-torqueing the existing OEM bolts to 120lbs for the inside bolts and 130lbs for the outside, is another option that may do the trick. I would still chase and clean the threads and use the ARP lube though.

So you are saying, not to pull the head? Just torque everything?

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:54 am

flman wrote:

So you are saying, not to pull the head? Just torque everything?

If I were doing the work myself and didn't mind doing the work again if I had to in case the leak returned, then I would re-torque the existing bolts and take my chances.

One other person that I know of did it this way in 2009 and hasn't returned to report any problems. This may vary from case to case though due to cracks and warpage in the head and a deeply rusted failed head gasket.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:22 am

racertracer wrote:

flman wrote:

So you are saying, not to pull the head? Just torque everything?

If I were doing the work myself and didn't mind doing the work again if I had to in case the leak returned, then I would re-torque the existing bolts and take my chances.

One other person that I know of did it this way in 2009 and hasn't returned to report any problems. This may vary from case to case though due to cracks and warpage in the head and a deeply rusted failed head gasket.

Once I get that deep, I might as well just pull the head? Cooling system has been loosing coolant for over a year, not a leak just dumps into the external reservoir and leaks from the weep hole?

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

It would be worthwhile to do a torque check on each bolt to see which ones are low and record the values before removing the head. The last head we pulled had about 80 ft-lb on the inner bolts between cylinders 3-4.

A re-torque can work with steel head gaskets, longevity of that method is a bit of an unknown. Studs are a better long term fix. A permanent fix would be a cast iron head...

x-tech · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:04 pm

I just finished doing the ARP stud replacement. I had purchased a Snap-On 11mm 1/2 drive impact socket before I started(thanks to a heads-up from lost jeeps). I JUST got the old bolts out and wore out the socket doing it! On the last 2 bolts I took a punch and hammer and hit the bolt heads sideways(couldn't hit them straight down) the bolts then came out very easily, wish I had done that to all of them. the bolts had a very high breakaway torque. Any bolt will come out easier it you can hit it hard, it works really well in aluminum. Good luck. Pete

flman · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:43 pm

Ok, the engine has been overheated more then once, is it still worth a shot to do a retorque considering this?

How deep do you need to go to do a retorque, and what gaskets do I need to accomplish this?

BTW, it still runs like a champ, even better then the one with no problems and less mileage on it?

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:59 am

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

A permanent fix would be a cast iron head...

Do you happen to be hiding some that you are looking to sell Keith? :mrgreen:

flman · **Posted:** Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:42 pm

So I spent a couple hours tearing down the engine, was using the FSM, it is kind of screwy, as per Warp the bean counters must have hired the cheapest writer they could. :ROTFL:

It said to remove the throttle cable? What throttle cable?

I had to drive it to my shop beforehand and get some tools to do it in my home garage, so driving it 1000' and 5 minutes run time resulted in the coolant being an inch low. That was until I removed the cap, so the HG leak built up that much pressure in that short amount of time, so it would be best to pull the head, as I have no clue what the gasket looks like, and no one has ever reported the symptoms I have on this forum. I sure am not going to do all that work just to torque the head with my fingers crossed.

So, until I get the head pulled???

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:31 pm

Agreed..... Keep us posted.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:05 pm

So I got the head pulled today, notice cylinder 2 and 3 both have antifreeze on the gasket near the exhaust manifold.

Close up of the 2 cylinder on the head, notiice the wetness and dark carbonized antifreeze.

After a quick cleaning up, notice the etching where the head leak was.

Any ways, I think I have some warping on the exhaust side of the head based on the straight edge would not make contact. My feeler gauge does not go as small as 0.1mm 0.004 in, so I will need to pick one up tomorrow. I tried office paper, and could not slide that under, that is pretty thin.

Does any one have any experience with a possible warped head and ARP studs to pull it down firm. Or planing may be a possibility as the FSM says, “The minimum cylinder head thickness is 89.95mm (3.541 in.).”

I also notice cylinder number 3 is carbonized while the others are somewhat clean? Did the antifreeze make them so clean?

I also found only one head bolt that had low torque, back by the fire wall, the rest were at full torque.

Well thanks Papadingo, Ranger1, and Mr. GDE for your help in PM and email.

BTW, Keith I found I had the alignment pins for the valve cover, and I was able to get of the exhaust manifold with a 3/8 swivel socket, followed by a ¼ socket set to remove the nuts behind the turbo.

flman · **Posted:** Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:38 pm

Finally, all back together and plenty of heat. :pepper:

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:42 pm

Congrats.

4x4kingx889 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:42 pm **Posts:** 235

what did you end up doing with the head?

flman · **Posted:** Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:22 am

4x4kingx889 wrote:

what did you end up doing with the head?

I checked it with a straight edge and a feeler gauge, it had .004" warpage or less, so I bolted it back on. I also gave it a light scrubbing with one of those green dishpan scouring pads.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:02 am

New head gasket, I presume?

DOC

flman · **Posted:** Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:31 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

New head gasket, I presume?

DOC

Of course new head gasket, and all the other related gaskets that had to be removed. Glad it was not the $1800 head. :dizzy:

carpenca · **Posted:** Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:38 pm

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

It would be worthwhile to do a torque check on each bolt to see which ones are low and record the values before removing the head. The last head we pulled had about 80 ft-lb on the inner bolts between cylinders 3-4.

A re-torque can work with steel head gaskets, longevity of that method is a bit of an unknown. Studs are a better long term fix. A permanent fix would be a cast iron head...

There is nothing wrong with the aluminum head. Especially one with a 6 bolt design. Same as what is found in a Duramax aluminum head and iron block, a combo pushed far beyond what anyone has pushed these little VM's to as far as EGT's and Pressure. I could go into a number of examples why... Bottom line is clamp load and fluctuating coolant temps are bigger influences on head gasket related failures. With a good MLS gasket, flat head & engine deck, good clamp load (Studs), and a properly functioning coolant system, there is no reason to have head gasket failures.

Did you end up going back with stock head bolts? What kind of time would you say you had wrapped up in it?

Caleb

flman · **Posted:** Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:19 pm

carpenca wrote:

There is nothing wrong with the aluminum head. Especially one with a 6 bolt design. Same as what is found in a Duramax aluminum head and iron block, a combo pushed far beyond what anyone has pushed these little VM's to as far as EGT's and Pressure. I could go into a number of examples why... Bottom line is clamp load and fluctuating coolant temps are bigger influences on head gasket related failures. With a good MLS gasket, flat head & engine deck, good clamp load (Studs), and a properly functioning coolant system, there is no reason to have head gasket failures.

Did you end up going back with stock head bolts? What kind of time would you say you had wrapped up in it?

Caleb

I will take the cast iron head like my ISB had any day, you do not hear of Cummins or other cast iron headed diesels blowing head gaskets.

I just went with the stock bolts, the ARP bolts have not been proven as far as I know to be the end of all failed head gaskets, only time will tell. I might consider putting ARPs into the LTD when it comes time to do the timing belt as long as the head is not leaking.

I had about 2 8 hr days into it, did it at my leisure, it is not a real hard job.

Being your first post, are you having a head gasket problem?

No heat, intermittent Heat <Problem Solved>

Who is online