2006 liberty crd hard starting cold, no codes.

theblackmatrix3 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 pm **Posts:** 7

Hi everyone, this will be my first post here and I have a jeep that I just can't get figured out. It's a customer's vehicle that she is complaining of hard starting when cold. The vehicle does not throw any codes and if it is plugged in it will start right up. It smokes white when it doesn't start so I know it is getting fuel. According to alldata the glow plug light should be on for 10 seconds when it is zero degrees outside. On this vehicle the glow plug light only comes on for 2 seconds. The glow plug relay is good and I am getting some power to the glow plugs but I don't think they are getting hot enough to start the vehicle. I have wItech and a DRBIII for scan tools. watching the voltage going to each individual glow plug I get 10.5 volts for the 2 seconds the glow plug light is on. Then it drops down to around 2 volts for another 15 seconds. Once I start the vehicle I get around 2 to 2.5 volts, depending on engine rpm's. It maintains that voltage after the engine is started for 360 seconds which is far longer than alldata says they should be on. I am at a loss here as to why the system is operating like this. Also it has been updated to the 5v glow plugs with an updated controller and the ECM reflash. It doesn't appear to have excessive blow by. vehicle has 192k on it. Sorry for the long rant, figured the more info I give the better. And thanks in advance for any help!

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:43 pm

Well to start alldata is, to the best of my knowledge, wrong. The 05/06 KJ CRD glow plug light is generally on for barely the blink of an eye and at 0F probably won't be on for more that 2-3 seconds at most, likely the same at lower temps. The duration of the light appears to have little to do with the duration of the glow plug warm up time; my guess is it's mostly just telling you the glow plug circuit has been activated not wait until it goes off to start. If there is a bad glow plug it should throw a CEL regardless of whether or not your scan tools can read a code. I know there are simple ways, continuity/resistance, to check the 7v ceramic plugs and I presume there is a similar way to check each of the OEM replacement 5v plugs but someone else will have to provide a how to for the latter.

If it starts fine when plugged in take a look at:
1. "health" of the battery. A good 700CCA (800CCA is better) is needed to fire the engine off especially in cold weather and a marginal battery might spin the motor but not have enough juice to let the ECU fire it up. Plugged in the engine compartment stays relatively warm which means a warmer battery and a marginal battery that's warm might work when it won't when cold.
2. air in the fuel filter head (see Sir Sam's NOOB guide for a video on how to bleed) especially if the engine bay is cold and the fuel is a bit gelled the combination might result in some fuel to the cylinders but not enough fuel pressure to fire. After market anti-gel fuel treatment is your friend in very cold areas.

theblackmatrix3 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 pm **Posts:** 7

The battery is good. Then engine cranks good I know that is not my issue. I am getting fuel to it just fine. I know all of the glow plugs work. I have pulled all of them out and tested them. I also even hooked all the glow plugs up to the harness with them out of the engine and watched how well they glow. They never get the typical red hot a glow plug gets. I had them all grounded out properly useing jumper cables too for anyone wondering how I did that. My temperature sensors are all reading the proper temperatures. According to alldata the ECM gets its temperature readings for how long to run the glow plugs from the ambient air temperature sensor and from the coolant temperature sensor. I am trying to figure out if alldata is wrong on alot of this information for these jeep crd's.

One other thing I did was to hook a battery charger onto it when cold to be sure I wasn't getting too low of voltage while cranking, thus causing the ECM to reduce power going to the glow plugs. I believe when I tested it while cranking I was keeping 10.5 or 11 volts during cranking which should be plenty.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:25 pm

I do not know enough to offer a solid opinion, I'm sure others do, but that voltage drop when cranking strikes me as a lot.

kjjet · **Posted:** Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:48 pm

How cold is it when she is having this issue?
What Glow plugs are installed? 7v OEM, 7v steel or 5v steel?
Is the Check engine light out?

Since Diesels use compression to ignite the fuel. There are several things that may have an effect on a high mileage engine.
Good clean fuel filter, Strong 800 min CCA battery, good injectors sending a clean burst or fuel, Valve operating (worn rockers may affect starting) compression (worn rings).

A lot can effect cold starting.

Good luck
KJJET

theblackmatrix3 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 pm **Posts:** 7

It's about any temperature below 32F. I have been doing alot of the testing when it was 0 to 20F. it runs real good and strong once its started. No strange blow by or anything. it throws 0 codes. battery is good and strong and spins the engine pretty quick. its 5V metallic glow plugs with all needed updates.

The injectors seem to be good. I haven't pulled them out to run them on the test stand, I can't see that being my issue. The glow plugs just flat out don't get glowing red hot. I'd like hear from someone about how the glow plug system works because I feel like alldata isn't giving me the correct specs.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:10 am

Just because they don't get red hot does not mean they're not working properly.

You said that they are the 5V plugs: what is the color of the insulator where the electrical connector is, red or white?

What is the part number of the PCM?
Is it tuned or stock?

Any chance to post a video of how bad the start is in the current condition?

theblackmatrix3 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 pm **Posts:** 7

We installed the updated glow plug kit part #68090434AA about a year and a half ago along with the updated ECM flash to go with the glow plugs. As for the color I will have to look tommorrow and let you know on that.

As far as I know the vehicle is stock. Is there any real way to see if it has a tune in it? it is pretty zippy and does smoke some when you get on it, but it could have just been excess soot in the exhaust because I doubt the lady ever gets on it real hard.

I could take a video of it Monday morning for you, it's only supposed to get down to the lower to mid 30's here Monday so it may just fire right up.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:30 am

I also experienced a difficult time to start the vehicle during the recent New England -10deg cold spell.

I have the new OEM metal plugs installed and the GDE hot tune with the metal Glow plug update.

I experienced a no start condition during thes cold days, the engine heater was not working and the starter just turned and turned without starting the engine, until the battery drained.

These new metal plugs may not break inside the cylinder head as the ceramics did, but they do not work as well as they did at starting the motor. The ceramics were lighting fast and worked well.

Saber · **Joined:** Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:48 pm **Posts:** 160

These OEM steel plugs suck miss the ceramics. At 6 it took me forever to start. Could not plug in that night. The ceramics would fire it right up with a little rough running

flman · **Posted:** Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:22 pm

I am seeing slow starting with the Etecno steel plugs as well. Why I listen to half the stuff I do on this forum I will never know? :banghead:

I should have left the ceramics right in there.

"Use an inline tstat." = overheating and blown head gasket.

"Torque the head bolts to 130." = broken head bolt.

"Get rid of those ceramic GPs before they break inside." = hard starting.

I am glad I do not follow the newb guide. :5SHOTS:

theblackmatrix3 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 pm **Posts:** 7

Sounds like this is a fairly common problem with the "updated" glow plugs. This one has the red insulators on the glow plugs. The glow plug controller is a Bosch part # 0 281 003 034. The current ECU flash is # 68090474AA, stated in the description on WiTech "Automatic U.S. with metalic glow plugs.

It currently isn't cold enough here to do a "cold start" video on it. It was 46 according to the overhead consule and it started right up.

As stated before I just flat out think the ECU tune in this thing doesn't tell the glow plugs to get as hot as they should. The VW diesel's all get glowing red hot and same with powerstroke, duramax, and cummins, and even my ranger diesel.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:54 pm

theblackmatrix3 wrote:

As stated before I just flat out think the ECU tune in this thing doesn't tell the glow plugs to get as hot as they should.

X2

Saber · **Joined:** Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:48 pm **Posts:** 160

Would there be anyway to control the glow plugs manually?

theblackmatrix3 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 pm **Posts:** 7

I'm sure I could hook in a push button but I hate to go doing that. I'd like for the system to be left in the stock form beings it's a lady's family vehicle. Would any of the tuner guys on here be able to write a tune that runs the glow plugs alittle longer than the factory tune?

kjjet · **Posted:** Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:27 pm

Sorry I don't know what else to suggest, other than check the cam timing? Even a smallest amount of cam offset can make a big difference during a cold start. With all the people doing short cut timing belt changes, by not loosing the cam sprockets. I would ask how well it was done. Do not let anyone touch the timing unless they assure you they are doing correctly. (even if they do say they have done it more times than most)

Also don't rule out the Rockers. My CRD was running great right up to the last start when a rocker broke.

Good luck
KJJET

theblackmatrix3 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 pm **Posts:** 7

I can't see how a rocker arm issue would cause a hard start issue. I guess I can pressure up each cylinder and check for a leakdown through a valve. I would also like to make for absolute sure there is good compression. It doesn't have alot of blowby so I doubt that's my issue, but I would like to for sure rule it out. Does anybody know where to get the correct compression test adapter for these engines?

On the timing belt deal. I am not aware of when the timing belt was done last. I don't think our shop has ever done a timing belt on it for her. I will have to ask her when the last time was that it was done.

One thing I do know is this vehicle started fine last winter here in central kansas, and it had the same glow plugs, same glow plug controller, and the same ECM update file as it currently has. Something has to have changed since then, the one thing I do know for sure though is it has been alot colder around here this winter. I can't remember if it got below 10 here last winter, but this winter it has gotten down to -8F so far. That could very easily be the difference.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:56 pm

Keith at GDE has shared with me that none of the steel replacement glow plugs work nearly as well as the OEM ceramics. He still has ceramics in one of his KJ CRDs. He told me he plans to keep them until he gets a glow plug code. He said that his understanding is that the ceramics only fail physically after they fail electrically.

I assume he would have indicated if there was some way to reprogram the control systems to get better results with steel glow plugs, but it did not occur to me to ask, at the time.

DOC

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

theblackmatrix3 wrote:

Sounds like this is a fairly common problem with the "updated" glow plugs. This one has the red insulators on the glow plugs. The glow plug controller is a Bosch part # 0 281 003 034. The current ECU flash is # 68090474AA, stated in the description on WiTech "Automatic U.S. with metalic glow plugs.

What glow plug module does she have? Check for this P/N on the SIDE of it:

56044671AA: factory glow plug module for 7v ceramic

56044671AC: updated glow plug module - included as part of 5v conversion

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:43 pm

theblackmatrix3 wrote:

The battery is good. .... 10.5 or 11 volts during cranking which should be plenty.

not necessarily,

the 10-11 volts is fine for the starter motor - it needs lots of current and isn't picky about voltage.

but at the same time fuel injection is controlled by the computer

to the computer the difference between 12.00v and 11.99v can be the difference between turning on or not.

2006 liberty crd hard starting cold, no codes.

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