2006 liberty crd hard starting cold, no codes.

jsrmonster · **Posted:** Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:27 am

To the OP - Can you post a video (link) of a cold start for this vehicle? Moody/rough starts with lots of blue/white smoke are not normal. Sometimes high-mileage leaky injectors will pool fuel in the piston bowl when they are shut down (hot), and that excess fuel is still waiting for the next cold start. This can quench the steel glow plug and put out the fire causing hard starts with mis-fires and stalling. Plugs are only on high-pulse momentarly during startup and they dial back pulse/voltage with tach reference when running.

The best way to get these started in very cold temps (-20 F) is hot air gun in the intake pipe, and obviously keep the block heater plugged in overnight. Cummins has the best cold start with heat-grid in the intake, but requires 2x batteries.

The 7v gp system is good with the steel gp's, but the NGK ceramic tipped gp's are the best in my opinion. I believe the steel tips can get quenched with fuel on cold starts (opposed to ceramics), causing the death rattle and hard starts. I currently have the Etechno 7v's in my CRD and don't think they are the solution to hard starts (5v ceramics were better, imho).

I have been modifying glow cycles (pulse voltage and duration), startup timing advance, and fueling, etc for these CRD's to make them start much better in sub zero temps. The biggest problem I see is the horrible death rattle that occurs due to the excessive timing advance on the CRD's. This is a rod killer, and also responsible for leaking head gaskets when head lifts and soot gets trapped between gasket and sealing surfaces, it opens a path for compression migration, and coolant leakage.

I also have many videos of o-scope reads of 5v input pulse and cold start glow cycle output pulse, and running after start glow/pulse. I've also posted many cold start tests on youtube for many diesel generations of (tdi's, MB's, cummins, and CRD's etc.) It's no problem making a manual push button for gp's. You need to feed 5v pulse supplied to pin on GP relay. However, this expects a pulse, and when it is constant 5v, you get constant 12v at gp output and it will burn them out quickly. Also if you accidentally bump the button while it is running, it can violently advance timing and cause engine damage.

Before modifications: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCmy-LS7z1I
After modification: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjIT00AxF0M
Here is a extreme cold start with excessive timing retard, and too little startup fuel at 6degF. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJjxCBtTHQo

Side Notes: They idle much cleaner and quieter when modified properly, oem will water your eyes (thru exhaust no-cat) and idles very loud with too much factory advance and fueling. (There are different tunes on each of the above cold starts). I wish I took more videos, but have nailed it for optimized cold starts on my CRD here in the North East Pa. I also drag my enclosed 3-place snowmobile trailer up northern Mi, NY, and Vt/NH to go riding and this tractor must be able to start properly at -20degF.

Jeff

Auberon · **Posted:** Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:50 am

The numbers in alldata precisely correlate with those in the 2006 manual (05/06 Engine supplement) . I haven't found any mis-correlation between alldata and any of the manuals to speak of yet.
If you have access to a clamp meter for DC current the current draw at immediate start up can be as high as 25 amps and then drops to 9-12 amps. This is what I would be inclined to check.
Will have a think but I tend to agree with what you wrote about rocker wear. It also seems to be too sudden and onset.
I seem to be in disagreement here with those I don't like to disagree with but I have had experiences with this engine with faulty GP that did not throw CEL it rather threw an ETC light.

With DRBIII you should be able to identify which glow (if there is one) is running to fault. Remember that the CEL occurs if the measured parameters are 50% outside the expected parameters. As AE tells me which GP is faulting out I would imagine that DRBIII would also.
What follows is probably superfluous for someone with your knowledge base but it's there for viewing anyway.

PLUG RELAY
DESCRIPTION
There are two glow plug relays. These relays are
located in the Power Distribution Center (PDC) in
the engine compartment (Fig. 7).
OPERATION
When the ignition (key) switch is place in the ON
position, a signal is sent to the ECM relating current
engine coolant temperature. This signal is sent from
the engine coolant temperature sensor.
After receiving this signal, the ECM will determine
if, when and for how long of a period the glow plug
relays should be activated. This is done before, during
and after the engine is started. Whenever the
glow plug relays are activated, it will control the 12
volt 100 amp circuit for the operation of the four
glow plugs. Each relay control two glow plugs.
The Glow Plug lamp is tied to this circuit. Lamp
operation is also controlled by the ECM.
With a cold engine, the glow plug relays and glow
plugs may be activated for a maximum time of 200
seconds. Refer to the following Glow Plug Control
chart for a temperature/time comparison of the glow
plug relay operation.
In this chart, Pre-Heat and Post-Heat times are
mentioned. Pre-Heat is the amount of time the glow
plug relay control circuit is activated when the ignition
(key) is switched ON, without the engine running.
Post-Heat is the amount of time the glow plug
relay control circuit is activated after the engine is
operated. The Glow Plug lamp will not be activated
during the post-heat cycle.
This is the table (poorly copied)
-30C 10 SEC. 35 SEC. 200 SEC.
-10C 10 SEC. 23 SEC. 180 SEC.
+10C 1 SEC. 21 SEC. 160 SEC.
+30C 1 SEC. 20 SEC. 140 SEC.
+40C 1 SEC. 19 SEC. 70 SEC.
+70C 1 SEC. 16 SEC. 20 SEC.
Fig. 7 GLOW PLUG RELAYS
1 - A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH RELAY
2 - VISCOUS HEATER RELAY
3 - ASD RELAY
4 - GLOW PLUG (3 + 4) RELAY #2
5 - CLUTCH SWITCH OVERRIDE RELAY
6 - GLOW PLUG (1 + 2) RELAY #1
7 - STARTER RELAY
8 - FUEL HEATER RELAY

FIG 7 Below: (wouldn't pull out and paste from the manual).
I assume you know the points above @ 4 and 6 re GP control.

Can you map the duty cycle of GP's with the DRBIII tool?

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

Export CRDs will turn on the lightning bolt for a failed glow plug. North America CRDs will set a CEL. This is due to differing regulations in the markets.

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

jsrmonster wrote:

I have been modifying glow cycles (pulse voltage and duration), startup timing advance, and fueling, etc for these CRD's to make them start much better in sub zero temps.

Jeff

How?

Auberon · **Posted:** Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:45 pm

Thank you for clarifying GDE. You have reflected on the reason for my comment about being uncomfortable with contradicting with opinions I respect and staying away from any temp related operating experiences.

jsrmonster · **Posted:** Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:00 am

weeks101 wrote:

jsrmonster wrote:

I have been modifying glow cycles (pulse voltage and duration), startup timing advance, and fueling, etc for these CRD's to make them start much better in sub zero temps.

Jeff

How?

The glow plug strategy control (software) is rather complex, and implementation is based on operating conditions, and ambient/elevation parameters. I modify the software values and mapping data to optimize starting conditions, based to my in-house R&D bench testing, and real world testing and engineering experience. Simply put, I have spent many hours fixing something the engineers failed to refine when their software was released. I guess they didn't do much cold chamber testing, imho.

Jeff

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

Jeff,

Do you have an instrumented glow plug to validate tip temps pre crank, cranking and after start-up? Bosch did the glow plug calibration for the 2005-06 KJ and their skills leave much to be desired.

Faelderon · **Joined:** Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:37 pm **Posts:** 1

jsrmonster wrote:

The best way to get these started in very cold temps (-20 F) is hot air gun in the intake pipe, and obviously keep the block heater plugged in overnight.

Block heater plugged alone is enough to get started at any temperature (tried down to -35 C). But plugging is not possible everywhere ! Have you really tried the air gun option ? If you can provide more details on how to do it I would appreciate. Thanks !

Brianawd · **Joined:** Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:59 pm **Posts:** 130

check the flow control actuator on the cp3 pump. I have been having a issue with surging and longer cranking times when the jeep is cold. Once the jeep is warm the issue goes away. I found the info on some of the cummins forums. This past weekend I left the jeep unplugged and and used a heat gun pointed at the FCA on the cp3 pump. I warmed the FCA for about 5min. The jeep started like it would when it was plugged in and when driving it down the road all my surging issue were gone.

Phatjimmy · **Posted:** Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:55 am

I have been having the same issue with my 2005 CRD. I have the Stage II turbo kit from GDE with the 5v glow plugs which I installed spring of last year. This is been my first winter with the 5V glow plugs. So far I have been plauged with a lot of hard starts, missing and ruff running during the first few minutes of a cold start. Last year with only 2 of my 4 cermaic plugs working it started easier and ran better cold. This is without the block heater being plugged in. I do have the update for the newer glow plugs. I changed the fuel head (my old one was fine) as preventive manitenance. Like the title of this thread states, I have the same issue, hard starting, no codes.

Jeff and Keith: Please let us know what you come up with for our CRD's and if there is an available update for any of the tunes. As more of us get changed over to the 5V glow plug this may become a more common issue in this forum.

Tulmaster · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:40 pm

Hi all, I just thought I would comment. I saw mentioned above that glow plugs were not known to fail physically prior to failing electrically. In my case I can say that all my glow plugs were working well and no codes showing. However as a precaution I replaced them with 7v steel glow plugs at about 83k miles. all except #2 cyl came out without problems. #2 would not come out after much trying presumably due to the tip being swollen. Not wanting to break it I left it in and it is still working at this time. When it does burn out I will most likely leave it in and continue on with only 3 glow plugs as the coldest the oregon coast gets is a week or so of maybe 20f per year and it is parked inside.

2006 liberty crd hard starting cold, no codes.

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