Timing belt inspection: Unknown mileage

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:29 pm

So I'm soon to pop the front cover off the engine to see what I can find. The PO THINKS the belt was changed at 113k, and said he "pulled the cover back" and verified it wasn't stock...? Is this possible, and am I opening a can of worms if I remove the front cover? I hope to be able to pull check some bearings when I do this, but this is all a big experiment at this point. Do I need to replace any seals if I do this and find that everything looks good? I purchased the tools, so I'll just keep going if anything is suspect.

She has 164k miles on her, all WITH the EGR adding sand :banghead:

, but it runs like a top with excellent torque :?:

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated :JEEPIN:

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:24 pm

It is hard to inspect the belt without taking it out, unless is so bad and the teeth are so worn that will stand out. The old/worn belts develop tiny cracks in between the teeth that are invisible while the belt is on. Best bet is to just get a new one and replace it, If you want to be sure. If the water pump hasn't been replaced, you should also consider that to be replaced. Idparts.com has a set with pulleys, tensioner, belt and water pump for about 400. There are walkthrough on the tech forum on how this is done, to give you an idea.

To answer your question, if you take the serpentine belt out, the pulleys, tensioner for serpentine and steering pump pulley, you can take out the cover. Up to this point, there is nothing else you need to buy, like gaskets, sealing stuff, etc. Just check all the parts for wear and tear.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:58 am

The only way to know for sure that the belt was done at 113K miles is to see the paperwork or if it was done by a dealer the record should be accessible at any cooperative DCJ dealer. That said a) if it's running at 164K miles on the original belt it's a miracle and b) while it is possible to crack the TB cover, without doing anything else, by undoing the top free bolts to take a peek at the TB the only way to tell if it's not stock is to get luck and see a Gates logo or some such at that point (I just looked at my spare Gates belt and logo info is only on about a 12" section of the belt).

thermorex is on point. If it was me and I was going in far enough to pull the TB front cover then I'd just replace the TB and be done with it. In fact at 164K miles just get the idParts kit and do it all including the WP and then you are done until 264K miles.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:07 am

I go with Pap and Therm, you are getting your hands dirty, might as well do it once rather the go away with any doubts and trash your rockers and lose a water pump. :dizzy:

And unplug the MAF until you get the GDE tune done.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:31 pm

Many thanks all! I just have one last thought. Can I tell if the
Water pump is original? Brand of original? If they cut that corner
Then I will for sure replace everything.
On a related note. Am I right in thinking that I shouldn't be able
To feel any slack in the various pullies? The viscous heater pulley
Has significant slop.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:45 pm

If the pulley is sloppy, then the bearing is gone. Best to search about replacing that bearing (it can be done) before it gets so bad that it damages the coil behind the clutch. Another bearing can be sourced (info in the thread) and that will get you back on the road again.

No way to externally tell which water pump is in there, but the Graf water pump is a fine piece to install. You only need change the front half of the housing, the back has no moving parts and then you don't break any of the seals.

flman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:11 am

Mountainman, you are still gambling over $125 water pump?

If it fails, it could trash that rockers just as easy as a broken belt.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:41 am

Both the viscous heater and the AC "pulley" are actually a electrically activated clutch assemblies that contain a bearing. I have no clue how much play there is in that assembly overall as opposed to just the bearing portion. Clearly the actual bearing should have essentially no play.

If, in fact, you determine that the viscous heater pulley play is caused by the bearing as geordi says it can be replaced. See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60567

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:08 pm

no way, I definately don't want to gamble if I can't tell it's status. hmm, sounds like I'll be ordering the kit. She's benched in my garage until I figure it out as I drive something else to work each day. The main thing that is slowing me down is the fact that I don't have a 6.5mm socket with me (I'm working out of state and renting a place, and didn't bring all of my tools), and the timing cover bolts just rounds off with the 7mm, and the (9/32" I think) was too big also. It's gotta be 6.5mm or 7/32? :banghead:

(I'm a 2.5 hour round trip from a FLAPS)

As for the viscous heater, I just hope I have the right sized object to press out the bearing. I read that long thread, and some others, but did anyone ever track down the other parts to rebuit it? I'd like to eliminate the leakage points if I'm not going to use it.
I'm full of questions, I'd also like to completely eliminate the EGR and its leakage points. Anyone do that succesfully and know where to find that info? I guess that's the point of (weeks101's?) pipe thingy?

Thanks again for all the help!

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:50 pm

Nope, those are exactly 7mm. Chances are, it is your socket that is not correct. Sadly, there can be great variances in the tolerances of tools, sockets for one. I blame our "high quality" Communist Chinese suppliers for everything, as the Made in the USA tools I have don't break or come out of the box not fitting what they are measured to fit.

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:57 pm

Check on eBay, every now and then you can get some cheap crd parts. I got some decent deals for some of them...

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:47 pm

Here's whats crazy, I tried two name brand wrenches, 3 name brand sockets, and several of my cheapo ones from my box of china made tools that I fabricate into other stuff! I looked closely at the bolts in disbelief, and they are undamaged. I swear that they put different bolts on my 05! I looked all over the web for any mention of this, and found nothing. Maybe it was a PO, a dealer, or the factory? there're a solid half mil smaller than 7mm, and bigger than 6mm. Noone else has heard of such a thing? I'll have to post a pic for you all some time just so you know I'm not crazy, even though some of my ideas are crazy :BINGO:

Thanks for the ebay gouge, I'll take a look. I also know some Japanese from when I lived there, I'll try to get a direct source for these ridiculously expensive VH's. Of course knowing Japan, it may be more! :furious:

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:00 pm

I wonder if you can just take out that viscous and make some brackets just to hold a pulley, so you can keep the same serpentine belt. Weeks101 may be able to design one, you should ask him. I don't use the viscous heater (relay unplugged) and here in Cleveland, I have no cold issues. But I also don't have the mechanical fan either...

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:35 pm

Hey Thermorex, I've been wondering the same thing. Someone said they bipassed the pipping so it couldn't leak, so I guess that's second best. I also have the FFD fan, just finished fabbing the shroud last night (well, I haven't figured out what to use to seal around the edges yet), but did you also bipass the mech fan pulley and idler pulley? I actually pulled the AC as well, so I was able to illiminate 4 potential bearing failures :rockon:

The bearing for the mech fan was shot, so it was a smart move. The mech fan that the PO had installed (hayden heavy duty like everyone else) in the last 10k had already failed on me, and I don't haul big trailers but rarely (firewood in cool weather), so no need for me. Man was there a lot of packed bugs and crap between the tranny cooler and intercooler. I also cut the AC cooler away from the tranny cooler, so there's much better air flow to everything. Gotta love all the room I have minus the AC, shroud, and mech fan :JEEPIN:

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:49 pm

No, I haven't bypassed the mechanical fan pulley, I just took out the viscous fan. I doubt it will fail soon, that bearing should be huge, to support the weight of that metal fan. But hey, you never know, lol, knock on wood... If I would have the option to fab some aluminum to make my "pulley holder" to replace the viscous heater, or, if I knew what belt I should get to bypass the mechanical fan pulley and the viscous heater, I would do it tomorrow, I may have to just cut an old belt and measure the length of it without the eliminated pulleys, then go to Napa or online and do some research on what's available. If you research that, please let me know.

Btw, if you took out that condenser, you may install a big mother of all transmission coolers, the stock one seems to be prone to leaks at connectors.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:36 pm

well, I went off of others research, but the K060825 (anything close to 83") belt works for bypassing the AC, mech fan, and two idlers. Others have said it's not possible to bypass the VH, or at least a pulley in its place since it needs that angle to clear the tensioner pulley (when it comes back up off the outboard side of the PS pump), and from looking at it I think they are right. But, I am still seeing if I can set up a pulley elsewhere to make skipping the VH versus replacing it with just a pulley an easier reality. I'll report back. I may have to replace one of the idler pulleys if the vibration is too great due to the large span that I now have the belt taking. I can't find anything definitive about how far one of these belts can safely span.

You for sure can just leave the fan pulley out, and one or two of the idlers, but you'll also have that long span accross the top from VH to Altenator. No clue on the length of that one, but you only have to get in the ballpark since the tensioner has a lot of adjustment :rockon:

Additionally, those pulleys aren't free, so it's nice to not have to ever pay to replace them again!

4 pulleys down, one VH to go.

About the cooler: The PO had towed with the entire trans cooler packed full of bugs (on the back side), and it still works, so I'm not too worried about cooling, but leaks do sound scary. Also, in Idaho I would have to run a bypass valve or shutoff in the cold season with a bigger cooler to keep from overcooling the tranny, or so I've read. I would like to add a temp guage so I have a clue as to what the tranny is doing, then maybe I would be thinking about a different cooler?

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:30 pm

Regarding Idling pulleys, don't worry too much about them since are not that expensive. You can get them from napa or you can replace the bearing with a Timken 203ss for about $10. There is a thread where Camo added his mod for the idler pulleys. Plus, they are really easy to replace, especially since you don't have the mechanical fan :BINGO:

.

Regarding bypass, I don't think you need one, I have never heard of somebody ruining a transmission from being too cooled, but it may be just me not knowing such cases. Usually people install thermal bypasses to improve shifting and smoothness in cold weather. I can't think of anything that can break in a transmission from running cooler. This 545rfe seems to have already some sort of thermal bypass, since I installed a 45gvw rated transmission cooler with a probe on the pressure line, I barely see that in the summer moving over 100 degrees, when I do a lot of city drive. The transmission is at about 145, at least when I measured it. So either is a thermal bypass already in, either is a very well engineered transmission that allows bigger flow as the liquid increases in temperature (based on thinner, less viscosity). On the Cherokee, I have a 35k gvw cooler, initially I installed a thermal bypass which was great in the Winter but plain sucked in the summer since it made my temp go towards 200. Without the bypass I never see more than 170 in summer and about 100-110 in winter, but I need to drive at least 20 minutes to see it over 100. I really don't believe there is any danger in overcooling the 454rfe. Btw, when the fluid is cold, it won't switch in 4th or 5th anyways (to lock the tc) till it warms up. With and without the cooler, it takes about the same time to warm up so it shifts 4th and 5th.

Is there a specific website that matches a length o f a belt with a belt code or a car that uses that length? If you know, please share the info.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:02 pm

Good deal, that gives me something to go by for tranny temps and coolers.

I don't know much about belt specifics, but that gates part #'s last three digits 825 stands for 82.5". So hopefully that will be an easy way to cross reference

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:07 pm

Oh, that helps, Thanks, I didn't know.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:50 am

Anytime. I fired it up last night with the new belt config and it looks
Happy with the span across. No jumping or bad vibrations.

Aren't my rockers probably trashed with 164k miles of EGR activity? It sure hammered the turbo, it has almost 1/4" slop front to back. At least I got the topside oil pressure gauge with alarm for insurance :/

Timing belt inspection: Unknown mileage

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