First fill up on B 100

Zonie · **Posted:** Sun May 14, 2006 10:47 am

I made a pleasant Saturday morning drive down to our local soy diesel distributor yesterday.
Introduced my Libby to 2 VWs, also waiting for a fill up, and educated their owners. "They make a Liberty diesel?"
There was a little leak at the pump, so they had a pan under it to collect the drippings. Naturally, I had to stick
my hand in it, rub it between my fingers and take a whiffl Unbelievable!!!!!! It looks and feels like
the stuff in my kitchen I call cooking oil!! I know you've all said this, but ya gotta realize I've been
driving more than 4 decades on stinky, fumed stuff. I'm just blown away! To top the whole experience off, the 40ish
Mexican man who filled the tank told me that his mother, back in Mexico, cooked with soy oil because
it was grown in abundance where she lived!

I love this car! Magnaflow last week. Oil change and Fumato on Tuesday! YeeeeHaa!

dog_party · **Posted:** Mon May 15, 2006 9:12 am

I'm jealous. We don't have a distributor around here. I have to drive at least 100 miles to get B20.

With the temps I saw in parts of AZ listed on Weather last weekend, I would think you could have used that drip pan to make yourself a nice piece of pan-seared fish while you were waiting for your fillup.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Mon May 15, 2006 9:51 am

I know this will open up a constant flow of responses, so here goes.
The fuel injection system in the CRD is a BOSCH system. The last information I reviewed about BioDiesel was that for BOSCH fuel injections systems only B5 is approved. It also had to meet fuel standards EN14214 for BioDiesel.
So, it would make sense that from the assembly plant in Toledo for the CRD, it came with B5.

Is there more information that is now available that shows the CRD is "approved" (i.e. warranty not negated) for anything greater than B5?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon May 15, 2006 12:29 pm

I am not sure D/C is even up to par as what is what as they have a TSB out for using only B2, I usually run b2 but when I am in the area of the station selling B10 we tank up there. The only problem in the bio-diesel at the present is no standard as to quality, water and other things. They are about to issue a B20 standard so that will be nice. The real killer is if a fuel damages your CRD the D/C is not liable, the fuel supplier is reguardless of it being petro or bio diesel.

valkraider · **Posted:** Mon May 15, 2006 5:43 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

I know this will open up a constant flow of responses, so here goes.
The fuel injection system in the CRD is a BOSCH system. The last information I reviewed about BioDiesel was that for BOSCH fuel injections systems only B5 is approved. It also had to meet fuel standards EN14214 for BioDiesel.
So, it would make sense that from the assembly plant in Toledo for the CRD, it came with B5.

Is there more information that is now available that shows the CRD is "approved" (i.e. warranty not negated) for anything greater than B5?

No manufacturers support higher than B5.

However there are millions and millions real world miles driven on B100.

You honestly believe that the car manufacturers would openly and eagerly support an alternative fuel that can be used in any blend, can be made by anyone, from a variety of sources?

1. They cannot guarantee quality - especially if people are making it in their garages. Just like they wouldn't fix your vehicle if you make a home-made modification and it broke something...

2. The oil companies that stand to lose lots of money might get involved.

Between those two factors - I doubt the major manufacturers will EVER support B100 - unless forced by government.

The oil industry is strong, and has close ties to the automotive industry...

Oh yeah, OldNavy - the TSB saying B2 is for the Sprinter van. And I suspect that they wanted to say no biodiesel was allowed - except that there are a couple states where all diesel sold in the state is 2% biodiesel. (Minnesota?). Washington has passed legislation requiring biodiesel use, and so is Oregon. Other states are working on it as well. I think that we will see greater acceptance soon...

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

DCX is officially supporting B20 in fleet and military Cummins equipped vehicles, meeting a military spec which I don't have access to at the moment. This is a Common Rail System (CRD) system very similar to the Liberty CRD. If a US spec is finalized for B20, I believe DCX will support its use on CRD vehicles. I suspect either the military or fleet managers or both pressured DCX into supporting B20. Once they start fleet warranty support for it, its eventually going to show up for retail use B20. B5 is already supported in our CRD's. So if military spec B20 is warranted by DCX, they must believe it's not going to negatively affect their fuel system components.

TDI4BY · **Joined:** Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:56 pm **Posts:** 644

I am still going to run mixtures up to B-99(Last two tanks) because my Liberty runs better, It is cheaper, Smells cool, better for the enviroment, smells cool, runs more quiet, and stuff....................Oh, and it smells good!

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Tue May 16, 2006 7:29 am

Yes, I get all the politics involved in this BioDiesel issue. But politics aside, the engine will run just fine on any type of quality produced and filtered biodiesel.
What concerns me is the fuel delivery system which is the pump and the seals. I know how a Common Rail system works, that does not concern me because by the time it hits the rail it's gone past the pump. So as long as the pump can sustain 27,000psi in the rail without seal leakage then were fine.
Also, as long as the BioDiesel is clear of water and other particulate contaminates that are filtered it will not hurt the nozzles in the injector system either under 27,000psi.

My question is why would the fuel delivery systems with specific pump manufactures only be supported as the following:
BOSCH B5 and meets EN1424
DELPHI B5 and meets ASTM D6751
STANADYNE B20 meets ASTM D6751

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue May 16, 2006 8:46 am

DZL_LOU wrote:

Yes, I get all the politics involved in this BioDiesel issue. But politics aside, the engine will run just fine on any type of quality produced and filtered biodiesel.
What concerns me is the fuel delivery system which is the pump and the seals. I know how a Common Rail system works, that does not concern me because by the time it hits the rail it's gone past the pump. So as long as the pump can sustain 27,000psi in the rail without seal leakage then were fine.
Also, as long as the BioDiesel is clear of water and other particulate contaminates that are filtered it will not hurt the nozzles in the injector system either under 27,000psi.

My question is why would the fuel delivery systems with specific pump manufactures only be supported as the following:
BOSCH B5 and meets EN1424
DELPHI B5 and meets ASTM D6751
STANADYNE B20 meets ASTM D6751

It really comes back to politic's even amoung mfg's.

Special Agent · **Posted:** Tue May 16, 2006 10:16 am

I believe they are refusing to certify B20+ blends because of quality issues and huge fear of home-brew they can't "prove" wasn't from an approved source. You can't exactly home-brew dino-diesel, now can you? So refusing to accept over b5 means they can always throw blame to the fuel retailer and refuse to service the vehicle.

There is only an ASTM standard for B100 as an additive, not as a primary fuel source. They don't want to increase their liability be "allowing" a fuel that isn't standardized and hasn't been approved as a primary fuel. It's just money/politics and huge dose of CYA (cover your @$$).

I drove my CRD home with the B5 provided plus whatever dino-diesel they filled the tank with and immediately refilled with B99.

Since then, I'm on my third full tank of B99 biodiesel. I haven't and likely won't put regular diesel in unless I have to (no bio available), I decide to test the "real world" differences in fuel economy, or the temps get below 40 degrees here.

Dino diesel is fine for most, but right now my B99 is 16 cents CHEAPER per gallon! Why would I run pulluting dino-fuel for MORE money??? LOL.

I'm buying it at a retail outlet who guarantees it meets or exceeds the ASTM fuel-additive standard and who will stand by their product if it is dirty or bad and clogs my engine- They have that liability as a fuel additive retailer just like Shell or Circle K does.

Besides, in order to avoid paying out for damage their fuel caused, they would have to prove that the engine "can't" run b99 and/or would be damaged by doing so. That would be hard since many people drive thousands of miles on it yearly!

B99 is known to be a superior fuel in terms of cetane rating, lubricity, sulfur content and so on... That's not opinion- it's scientific fact. The only downside to Biodiesel is that it gels/freezes at a higher temperatures than dino and can clog your fuel filter in cold weather, leading to a starved engine.

Bosch just fears bad fuel and so refuses to acnkowledge biodiesel until there are good standards in place for it as a neat fuel.

valkraider · **Posted:** Tue May 16, 2006 12:41 pm

About half of our CRDs 12,000 miles are on B99.

The other half is devided amongst B50 and B20, depending on the time of year.

12,222 miles as of this morning, currently using B99.

We sold our VW TDI to friends who are running it on B99. We had 60,000 miles on it, we started with B20 around 10k and around 40k went to B99 (B50 in winter)...

Spoke for almost an hour this morning with a fellow who has over 20,000 miles on a 2005 Chevy Duramax using B99 exclusively...

You see more and more postings here about people buying CRDs just to use biodiesel. I passed two VW TDIs this morning with biodiesel stickers.

I regularly see Sprinter delivery vans filling up at our local B20 pump. Our Portland city diesel vehicles all use B20. Our state motor fleets are moving to B20 only for all their diesel vehicles.

This stuff is here to stay...

** B99 only existed after the tax credit thing was figured out. For the purposes of clarity I have written B99, however for realistic purposes B99 and B100 are the same thing as B99 only exists because of a technicality in the tax code...

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Tue May 16, 2006 1:09 pm

This is an interesting site that sheds a little light on DC's plans and on their attitude re Bio fuel.

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/diesel.html

bsmotril · **Joined:** Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:15 am **Posts:** 4

The risk of running straight veggie oil is lack of lubrication to the injection pump because veggie does not have the sulfur in it that lubes the pump. You could get around this with a good fuel additive to put some sulfur back in. I'm not sure if the liberty fuel pump is lubed by fuel, or by engine oil. If engine oil like on the 94-97 Cummins, then you won't have this issue.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 1:31 pm

bsmotril wrote:

The risk of running straight veggie oil is lack of lubrication to the injection pump because veggie does not have the sulfur in it that lubes the pump. You could get around this with a good fuel additive to put some sulfur back in. I'm not sure if the liberty fuel pump is lubed by fuel, or by engine oil. If engine oil like on the 94-97 Cummins, then you won't have this issue.

Fuel pump is fuel lubed. Better do some more reading about veggie oil and it's lubricating abilities. :roll:

valkraider · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 5:59 pm

bsmotril wrote:

The risk of running straight veggie oil is lack of lubrication to the injection pump because veggie does not have the sulfur in it that lubes the pump. You could get around this with a good fuel additive to put some sulfur back in. I'm not sure if the liberty fuel pump is lubed by fuel, or by engine oil. If engine oil like on the 94-97 Cummins, then you won't have this issue.

Actually, Biodiesel and Veggie oil are both used as additives to INCREASE the lubrocity of ULSD. Even though they have no sulfur - they have much much higher lubrocity than ULSD.

(Why do you think you grease a pan with cooking oil?)

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 6:19 pm

Sulfur is not a lubricant, and it never was. Sulfur is bad. Bad for the air. Bad for the engine. Bad for the oil. Bad. The process of removing sulfur screws up the lubricity. Hydrotreating I think they call it. Sorry, I gotta take a pill...

valkraider · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 7:05 pm

Goglio704 wrote:

Sulfur is not a lubricant, and it never was. Sulfur is bad. Bad for the air. Bad for the engine. Bad for the oil. Bad. The process of removing sulfur screws up the lubricity. Hydrotreating I think they call it. Sorry, I gotta take a pill...

Thats what I had read once as well. But I can't find it. Everything I find talks about sulfur being a lubricant...

It is my understanding that it is the extended refining that hurts the lubrocity - not the lack of sulfur.

In any event, I am pretty sure that the "loss of lubrocity" was just an excuse to put off the ULSD or to charge more for extra additives and whatnot.

They are unhappy with their mere 30 billion dollar net profits...

blacksmoke · **Posted:** Sun May 21, 2006 6:20 pm

Being on B100 for a month now...
Engine runs smoother for sure, but I see a lost of about 10% in my range (now around 410miles versus 450)
But at $2.99/gal versus $3.35 for normal diesel, i'm still saving on the distance/cost, and it make me feel good to pay local farmers...

Special agent, where do you fill up? I'm living close to Issaquah so going to the Grange. Are you going to the one near UW on 45th?

TDI4BY · **Joined:** Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:56 pm **Posts:** 644

blacksmoke wrote:

Being on B100 for a month now...
Engine runs smoother for sure, but I see a L.O.S.T. of about 10% in my range (now around 410miles versus 450)
But at $2.99/gal versus $2.35, i'm still saving on the distance/cost, and it make me feel good to pay local farmers...

Special agent, where do you fill up? I'm living close to Issaquah so going to the Grange. Are you going to the one near UW on 45th?

I am paying 2.99 for B-99 in Olympia, where are you getting it for $2.35?

blacksmoke · **Posted:** Sun May 21, 2006 6:35 pm

TDI4BY wrote:

blacksmoke wrote:

Being on B100 for a month now...
Engine runs smoother for sure, but I see a L.O.S.T. of about 10% in my range (now around 410miles versus 450)
But at $2.99/gal versus $2.35, i'm still saving on the distance/cost, and it make me feel good to pay local farmers...

Special agent, where do you fill up? I'm living close to Issaquah so going to the Grange. Are you going to the one near UW on 45th?

I am paying 2.99 for B-99 in Olympia, where are you getting it for $2.35?

Sorry my bad, i mean 3.35 for normal diesel... bad typing or too much of that nice malt beverage :roll:

First fill up on B 100

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