Locker vs. Limited slip

Rich · **Posted:** Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:25 pm

someone tell me why a truetrac isn't good to have in snow and ice?

streetglideok · **Posted:** Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:47 pm

They work fine, however you have to be mindful of them, or any LSD or auto locker in the rear. More prone to having the rear kick out sideways on you on ice or snow. I have ran them in the past with no issue in a ford pickup in WI. However those who lack respect for the roads and vehicle, or inexperienced, will get the snot scared out of you the first time you romp on it on the slick stuff. ARB air lockers won't do that, because they work as an open diff until locked in. If I had the money to blow on putting an ARB in back, I would. For now, I have a DTT for the rear sitting at work.

Rich · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:55 am

Asking more for the group in general than myself. I cringe everytime someone asks for advice on a LSD and the automatic response is "get an ARB". They are great lockers, but FAR from the end-all-be-all option for everyone; I for one would NEVER consider an ARB for one of my vehicles.

tommudd · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:24 am

Rich wrote:

Asking more for the group in general than myself. I cringe everytime someone asks for advice on a LSD and the automatic response is "get an ARB". They are great lockers, but FAR from the end-all-be-all option for everyone; I for one would NEVER consider an ARB for one of my vehicles.

And do tell why that is? You must have some inside info as to why an ARB isn't a good choice.
For me its about the only option, over the years I have ran lunch box type lockers ( HUGE MISTAKE every time I tried to go cheap) have ran Detroits ( rolled a Bobtail Bronco due to one of them catching and throwing me sideways, this was after having it for 3 winters, so knew what they would do but -long story) and ARBs which on a DD was perfect, switch it on when you need it, off completely when you didn't

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:20 pm

tommudd wrote:

Rich wrote:

Asking more for the group in general than myself. I cringe everytime someone asks for advice on a LSD and the automatic response is "get an ARB". They are great lockers, but FAR from the end-all-be-all option for everyone; I for one would NEVER consider an ARB for one of my vehicles.

And do tell why that is? You must have some inside info as to why an ARB isn't a good choice.
For me its about the only option, over the years I have ran lunch box type lockers ( HUGE MISTAKE every time I tried to go cheap) have ran Detroits ( rolled a Bobtail Bronco due to one of them catching and throwing me sideways, this was after having it for 3 winters, so knew what they would do but -long story) and ARBs which on a DD was perfect, switch it on when you need it, off completely when you didn't

X2.......................

Like I stated a DTT up front is awesome just not what I would want in the rear as my KJ saw a lot of daily driving.Plus a ARB is awesome offroad,more awesome when playing around.

Rich · **Posted:** Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:10 pm

I like the fire and forget nature of a helical LSD in my DD. No compressor to shoe-horn into my already cramped truck, no airlines that will fail (per Murphy's law) when I need them, and I am not a huge fan of the bouncing and chirping when attempting to make any sort of corner. Cost is in there as well, I can't justify $1k per end for something I would use maybe once a year (more with the compressor and lines), most of the time it would be unlocked and collecting dust. I also don't enjoy the locked rear end's tendency to find it's way to the low-side of the trail during any kind of powered curve. When on high-traction surface in wet/slick conditions I like the added, but differential, traction in the rear when things get a bit loose, can't really do that with a selectable locker.. might as well weld the diff at that point. This also goes for the thousands of miles I spend on gravel/dirt roads at higher speeds. The LSD helps keep the traction exiting corners, where a locked rear would increase the pucker factor exponentially. Since I don't spend much time with a wheel in the air, and the very slight chance I do get in that position dragging the brake does the trick with the TT. IF I were going to be spending more time in the rocks and crawling about the likes of a 8/10 or higher rated trail, than an ARB would be perfect... but most of the time I 'need' a traction adder I am just offloading one corner on a slick hill where the LSD would work beautifully. Like this...

Front right was hunting for traction while the other three were firmly planted on the ground, hill was iced mud and that extra traction would have made the climb/turn much easier. I got through with no LSD or lockers, but it would have been a welcome change. The one truck on this run that had dual ARBs couldn't make the climb on the first go because his lines or solenoid failed him. :wink:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:47 pm

Hey rich,

Could you tell me if you think the truetrac is safe in the rear at
45 mph or so on a somewhat slick road? Or does it slow you down an extra 15 mph or so?

Rich · **Posted:** Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:02 pm

Mountainman wrote:

Hey rich,

Could you tell me if you think the truetrac is safe in the rear at
45 mph or so on a somewhat slick road? Or does it slow you down an extra 15 mph or so?

ya lost me.

does this help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSAGOGqPP-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlYr9UgwX4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrXCIjgi48o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIzAF-CGjdY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZpPGi-xKKo

Forgot to mention, if you have a manual trans, you'll have to do a bit of toe and heel to get the diff to "lock" if a tire is up and spinning while crawling. In this case.. get a selectable locker.

streetglideok · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:12 am

Mountainman wrote:

Hey rich,

Could you tell me if you think the truetrac is safe in the rear at
45 mph or so on a somewhat slick road? Or does it slow you down an extra 15 mph or so?

If the road is slick, or somewhat slick, then there really isn't a need to be going 45mph. 4wd, ABS, ESC, LSD, etc do not give one greater ability to drive fast in slick conditions. If it's foggy, don't drive so fast that you can not stop safely within your visible range. If it's slick, you never drive faster than you can safely stop. It's like the disclaimer in the owner's manual, about shifting on the fly into 4wd above 55mph. If you need 4wd, wtf are you going 55mph for to begin with? If you have road conditions slick enough for a wheel, or both rear wheels to break loose, then you should not be going that fast, period. At that speed, you will not be able to stop in enough time or maintain control of the vehicle, LSD or not. Do not let the rejects flying down the road dictate your speed. That is your responsibility alone. Yep, plenty of winter driving experience here, in the ice belt.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:29 pm

Yeah, I know what you're saying about 4wd, and people thinking it gives them more traction at speeds above 25 or so, but what I'm wondering is, if it is safe to go 25 with an open dif, then would a truetrac in the rear when in 2wd cause me to brake loose at the same speed, or lower my safe max speed. I ask because I travel long distances in remote areas.
Also, as for the speed demons, I often pull off for them if I'm lucky and there's a plowed pull off, but most of the time I'm forced to speed up a bit so I don't get rear ended, and then gradually slow back down. It's nerve racking because there's no safe passing zone, and a slushy river below.
If truetracs increase my chances of braking loose at 45 in gradual corners, then I better go ARB. Because getting rear ended at 35 where I drive is just a matter of time (people in their new shiny lightweight SUVs think they can drive 50 on black ice without studs). Granted, I will have studded tires on in these situations, and try to go as slow as I can without getting smacked from the SUV around the last corner. Windy mountain river highways, we only drive to town when the roads are bad if necessary....

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:35 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention that safe stopping speed is often around 25 mph where I live, so you watch your rear view after a corner and if someone is screaming up behind you, you speed up as much as you can safely, and then gradually slow the brave soul down behind you, and pray they don't tailgate you or try to pass :grim:

streetglideok · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

If you're safe at 25mph with an open diff, you're safe with a DTT as well. You'd be most likely to have an issue on the throttle, and particularly while turning. As you live in a wintry climate, you know better than to get on the skinny pedal too much when turning, etc. anyways.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:55 pm

streetglideok wrote:

If you're safe at 25mph with an open diff, you're safe with a DTT as well. You'd be most likely to have an issue on the throttle, and particularly while turning. As you live in a wintry climate, you know better than to get on the skinny pedal too much when turning, etc. anyways.

That takes all the fun out of it :wink:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:07 pm

Alright, thanks for the advice. I think ill go for a truetrac as planned then. I got all new bearings sitting on the bench, just needed to pull the trigger on the guts. :rockon:

streetglideok · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:19 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

streetglideok wrote:

If you're safe at 25mph with an open diff, you're safe with a DTT as well. You'd be most likely to have an issue on the throttle, and particularly while turning. As you live in a wintry climate, you know better than to get on the skinny pedal too much when turning, etc. anyways.

That takes all the fun out of it :wink:

I wasn't talking fun, just sane, lol.

Now fun, that's 2wd, full throttle and no throttle. Ice racing style. Guaranteed to scare the heck out of the locals here, up Ute Pass.

streetglideok · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:22 pm

Mountainman wrote:

Alright, thanks for the advice. I think ill go for a truetrac as planned then. I got all new bearings sitting on the bench, just needed to pull the trigger on the guts. :rockon:

Bought mine thru these people. Actually bought it from their ebay store, free shipping and a little less money than their website. Have to be somewhat legit, I have it sitting next to my tool box as we speak.
http://www.drivetrainamerica.com/p-35-9 ... dodge.aspx

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:26 pm

streetglideok wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

streetglideok wrote:

If you're safe at 25mph with an open diff, you're safe with a DTT as well. You'd be most likely to have an issue on the throttle, and particularly while turning. As you live in a wintry climate, you know better than to get on the skinny pedal too much when turning, etc. anyways.

That takes all the fun out of it :wink:

I wasn't talking fun, just sane, lol.

Now fun, that's 2wd, full throttle and no throttle. Ice racing style. Guaranteed to scare the heck out of the locals here, up Ute Pass.

I'm sure you now the stretch of Dublin between Academy and Union right? After that curve when you start going up hill I used to be able to keep my KJ sideways from the curve to the stoplight at Union in 4hi and a DDT up front,kept the rear open.

streetglideok · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:09 pm

Know it quite well. Used to live right off Vickers to the south. Several hills thru there get entertaining in the winter.

Rich · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:26 pm

Maybe I should clarify.

The TT acts just like an open diff when one tire has little to no traction. Meaning ALL the power goes to that side and spins, while the traction tire just sits. IF there is a bit of resistance (torque) on that off-weighted wheel, it will tighten up and provide traction for the plated tire. This is exactly were the "parking brake trick" comes into play. Best demonstration was when AM General brought in their reps when we first took delivery of the M1114's in '00.. a log under opposing corners with the truck in gear idling away and lifted tires rotating freely. Instructor started to drag the brake and truck drug itself off the logs in short order; more than a couple months playing in the rock piles of the Mojave Desert in my M1026 and M1114 sealed my love for the diffs. In the untold miles I flogged those trucks for, I only blew one diff... and that was all my fault. When you head into a corner a bit too hot, and drop the throttle with the inside tire off-weighted, 90% of the time the diff will act open. It provides much better traction when you have sane and stable exit speeds, good weight transfer, and smooth... all the things you are supposed to be doing on the exit. Nothing else, it encourages the driver to do things right.

As for slipping sideways in the snow and ice... My avatar is my old '00 XJ doing about 50mph on a skid pad in 11" of snow or so on a sheet of ice... DTT rear was present ;-)

There are times I miss that XJ.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:16 am

Good stuff! I don't know if I'll ever get crazy like I do with my rough old 4runner that's worth 1/4 of my Libby, but with all that torque, who knows.
Since you guys have obviously ran these in some serious snow, how much wet snow do you think they can pass through on a mountain road with 245/75 r16s? I'm afraid I'll get stuck since I'm used to my stripped down 4runner (dropped about 400 lbs). I'm hoping to be able to deal with at least 18". That will get me through elk season most years.

Locker vs. Limited slip

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