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 Post subject: Re: High mileage CRD and zero problems
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:46 am 
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I have just had a new engine installed. At what mileage do you think I should swap out the head bolts for studs?

geordi wrote:
Another member tried tightening the factory bolts to the 130lb-ft that we have determined as the torque for the head studs. At least one of those bolts snapped in the hole, but luckily enough he was able to extract it without any major pains.

Meanwhile, I had tightened one of the same bolts in a jig and got up to 250lb-ft before the flutes on the top of the bolt gave way. The shaft never yielded or broke. These are supposed to be TTY bolts, and I personally despise TTY because of the inconsistencies in how they yield like this. As such, all I can say is that you are on your own with the factory bolts. I compared the factory bolts removed from Doc's engine with the brand-new factory bolts with his head gasket... No differences could be detected, but that doesn't mean that the factory bolts are good, as cylinder 2/3 were loose.

However, what I know for fact: ARP studs are VERY precisely made, so that they all perform the same time after time. This is why I will only recommend these for the head clamping on the CRD or any other application that you can use them.

Coolant shouldn't have anything to do with it, honestly. This is an ELC coolant and should last longer than just 100k in personal car service.

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 Post subject: Re: High mileage CRD and zero problems
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:42 am 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:

You are going to get stochastic variation on installed bolt torques. Good manufacturing practice is to select procedures that guarantee minimum clamping force on all bolts without exceeding maximum clamping force on any bolt. If VMM had used hardened and ground washers under the bolts, for example, they would have eliminated the galling and friction between the head and the bolt head that is one source of torque variation. They also would have reduced the deformation of the head bolt recesses that Geordi and I and others have seen. Some engines are undoubtedly going to get 16 good head bolt installs, perhaps the majority of them. But others won't, as has repeatedly been demonstrated. It is a crap shoot, due to the unpredictable nature of the bolts selected.

the really nice thing about the ARP studs is that you get predictable, reliable clamping force EVERY TIME from EVERY STUD. I am convinced that this modification is one of the two most important mods one can make to ensure proper engine function, right up there with dealing with the soot problem.


Arriving at an acceptable torque factor that gives you the minimum clamping required, yet does not exceed the maximum structural strength of the construct is called "good design". I would suggest that the space between those two numbers should be fairly large... EXCEPT in the case of the CRD where the head will yield (failure) not far above the measured torque values of the factory bolts. This is not a good design. You always want a normal bolt to remain in the elastic region, so that it does not exceed its own tolerances. TTY bolts by nature do not do this, IF they are properly sized to the job. I am also uncertain about that, because of experiences on this forum and in this thread.

A better design could have been a reinforced cylinder head that didn't crush so readily, where torque values (needed at 130lb-ft) did not cause failure until 150+ lb-ft. As it sits, the deformation could happen because of variations in the tolerances of the torque or angle wrenches used by the factory, because even they would be expecting a larger working range between elastic / plastic and failure. Perhaps the component of the TTY structure the design was expecting to yield was the head, and not the bolt? Could it be that badly designed?

The point and debate is somewhat irrelevant however. Practical experience has shown that these TTY bolts should be replaced for the ARP studs, somewhere around the 100k mile belt change. The vast majority of coolant leaks have been right around 130k miles, so there are the numbers. The result will be predictable clamping, and even the lunatic rigging his CRD with compound turbos pushing 30psi has not had one whiff of a problem by having the ARP studs installed. For the general user, this is probably a bit of overkill, however:

When engineering, the proper amount is over-engineered. That is called "safety factor".

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 Post subject: Re: High mileage CRD and zero problems
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:56 pm 
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jrsavoie wrote:
I have just had a new engine installed. At what mileage do you think I should swap out the head bolts for studs?



If it were me, I'd have had studs put in at the beginning, but given that did not happen, I would do it at the next TB change which would be at 60k miles, or 5 years, not 100k miles.

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 Post subject: Re: High mileage CRD and zero problems
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:22 pm 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:
jrsavoie wrote:
I have just had a new engine installed. At what mileage do you think I should swap out the head bolts for studs?



If it were me, I'd have had studs put in at the beginning, but given that did not happen, I would do it at the next TB change which would be at 60k miles, or 5 years, not 100k miles.


I ha heard 70,000 miles instead of 100,000. I will definitely plan on that. At this rate it will be 35 years before I get that many miles on this thing. Nothing but problems. I've never had such a needy money pit.

When I bought it as a basket case, I should have kept the basket and doo doo canned the Jeep. Awfully expensive maintenance by the mile on these things. More than makes up for the as yet unseen fuel mileage we're supposed to get.

On a 6.5 diesel you have to change the injectors at 100,000 miles for about $500. And you can stretch that a little. Timing chain you can put off for 500,000 miles

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94 K3500 cc srw 5 speed 6.5td
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 Post subject: Re: High mileage CRD and zero problems
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:11 pm 
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Sorry for sounding stupid but are there any early symptoms that the head gasket is going to blow. Is there away to prevent it from blowing short of replacing the studs. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: High mileage CRD and zero problems
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:53 am 
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shadow63 wrote:
Sorry for sounding stupid but are there any early symptoms that the head gasket is going to blow. Is there away to prevent it from blowing short of replacing the studs. Thanks


If you start loosing coolant and see it in the overflow side of the coolant bottle its a good sign that the gasket is going.

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 Post subject: Re: High mileage CRD and zero problems
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:25 am 
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No problem with mine at 126,00 miles except a few sensors and glow plugs.

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 Post subject: Re: High mileage CRD and zero problems
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:28 am 
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Thanks for the heads up


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