Perforated Block??

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:36 pm

You could also put some UV dye in the coolant and confirm where that leak is coming from. It's pretty handy stuff.

diesellady · **Joined:** Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:06 pm **Posts:** 15

Oops sorry I looked at the join date and thought this was an old post. I am very anxious to hear what you have found. I have had this same coolant leak, although I have not been able to pin point it as I can't see back there. But I knew it had to be from someplace other than a coolant line running past the block as there arent any back there. Mine is leaking bad. 2 imches of coolant a day for about 20 miles of driving. tried another bottle of stop leak, the K seal and the first one slowed it down a bunch but now it's leaking again like before. Only 85k on the jeep. This came up as soon as I did the timing belt. I'm pretty sure there was some air left in the block when I took it out for the first test drive after refilling it. Then I added another 3" of coolant back into the bottle afterwards. I don't know if this had anything to do with the leak, but It's been killing me. This little just still runs awesome. But can't hold coolant. Thanks for posting this as I have not been able to find anything else.

rancherman · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:40 pm

I've had excellent results with JB weld.

Surface prep is the key to any patch.. and this product is the same. It's gotta be sterile, and somewhat rough.

2 yrs. ago, I patched a 2 inch long crack on a old radiator tank..(brass) and the crack was clear through.. right on a curve too. I've only been able to run that radiator 1 year before with solder. (professionally done at the radiator shop) The JB was a last resort, cost about 6 bucks for the kit.. It's bonding is about as good as an epoxy gets, but seems to be just flexible enough to withstand the thermal cycles and the resulting expansion and contraction of my radiator. Should work fine on a much stiffer engine block.
I go through about 3-4 kits a year holding my crap together. LOL
I know it's been laughed at, But it does work.

Hey, just out of curiosity, how many with cracked blocks were running arp studs? and how many with cracked blocks are still running the stocker head bolts? A poll perhaps?? I'd like to see if the increased clamping force of the studs caused more block distortion and a possible start of a crack.
I'm basing this hypothesis on arp is fine thread topped fastener, whereas the oem bolt is coarse. The torque to install is about the same isn't it? The 'pull' upwards on the studs will be considerably more.. the material in the block immediately surrounding the threads might be moving!

diesellady · **Joined:** Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:06 pm **Posts:** 15

Stock engine, with a little green diesel tune. Stock head bolts. But this started the day I got the timing belt back on and that afternoon I noticed a drip off the back of the eng.

rancherman · **Posted:** Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:51 pm

diesellady wrote:

Stock engine, with a little green diesel tune. Stock head bolts. But this started the day I got the timing belt back on and that afternoon I noticed a drip off the back of the eng.

Thanks! that is '1' for stock bolts..

This may be just a snipe hunt.. but still curious if there is a trend!

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:08 am

You might just be hunting out 500 feet of flight line, a left-handed torque wrench, and that board stretcher that the carpenters keep sending out for repair. :goink:

The ARP studs were very carefully selected by several members (one of which is a damm fine engineer) working directly with ARP and carefully measuring the factory bolts, holes, metallurgy, and overall system setup to duplicate the factory clamping force.

The results (IIRC) were that the factory bolts were putting down just over 17,000 psi of compressive strength when torqued to the factory process. The ARP studs would achieve that same number with 120 lb-ft, but it was determined by ARP that since there was a variation (center rows get more torque b/c there are only 4 bolts with 2 shared per cylinder) that those would get about 19,000 psi, and that would be reached with 130 lb-ft. LMW (the engineer) opted to try for even more clamping force, which is when he discovered that the crush pressure of the HEAD is reached at 140 lb-ft.

The iron block is far stronger, even considering that it is cast pig iron. Also, the differences between fine thread and coarse thread with regard to torque are irrelevant here. Total torque is total torque, period. The difference is in how many turns and how hard you have to push "up the ramp" to reach that number. A fine thread is a very gentle ramp to climb, but you have more turns to reach the destination. A coarse thread is a very steep ramp, and while you make fewer turns... They are a lot stiffer and the torque climbs (or falls) much faster and less precisely. Either way, when fully torqued, 19,000 psi is being applied to that head gasket.

amslube · **Posted:** Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:36 am

My block leak was with stock head bolts. If you check my release torque posted on geordi's head bolt torque thread, mine were on the low side compared to others, when I mistakenly thought my external coolant loss was from the HG. ARP studs in now and there was no change in the amount of coolant loss.

amslube · **Posted:** Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:10 pm

Just a little update...The Blue Devil Sealant didn't work so I submitted the warranty claim form about 1pm yesterday. I had my refund by 3pm!! I certainly wished the product worked but they did honor the warranty very quickly. Usually takes weeks.

I was planning on pulling the engine this weekend to closely inspect and attempt a repair for my block leak but due to circumstances beyond my control, I can't get to it until next weekend.

rancherman · **Posted:** Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:59 am

geordi wrote:

You might just be hunting out 500 feet of flight line, a left-handed torque wrench, and that board stretcher that the carpenters keep sending out for repair. :goink:

The ARP studs were very carefully selected by several members (one of which is a damm fine engineer) working directly with ARP and carefully measuring the factory bolts, holes, metallurgy, and overall system setup to duplicate the factory clamping force.

The results (IIRC) were that the factory bolts were putting down just over 17,000 psi of compressive strength when torqued to the factory process. The ARP studs would achieve that same number with 120 lb-ft, but it was determined by ARP that since there was a variation (center rows get more torque b/c there are only 4 bolts with 2 shared per cylinder) that those would get about 19,000 psi, and that would be reached with 130 lb-ft. LMW (the engineer) opted to try for even more clamping force, which is when he discovered that the crush pressure of the HEAD is reached at 140 lb-ft.

The iron block is far stronger, even considering that it is cast pig iron. Also, the differences between fine thread and coarse thread with regard to torque are irrelevant here. Total torque is total torque, period. The difference is in how many turns and how hard you have to push "up the ramp" to reach that number. A fine thread is a very gentle ramp to climb, but you have more turns to reach the destination. A coarse thread is a very steep ramp, and while you make fewer turns... They are a lot stiffer and the torque climbs (or falls) much faster and less precisely. Either way, when fully torqued, 19,000 psi is being applied to that head gasket.

Ok, I guess I'll throw out 40 years of a common knowledge that fine threaded fasteners clamp about 15-20 percent more than their coarse threaded brothers... torqued to the same amount, and with the same lube...
15 or 20 percent is actually 'relevant'. at least enough in my book to warrant a simple poll to see if there was any 'trends'.
CRIPESAKE, what would it hurt? To me, It's about as irrelevant as measuring the 'untorqueing' of the head bolt in the first place!
No one re uses them.. or should, and either goes new oem or stud. Who cares what it took to jar them loose?? Can YOU guarantee me nothing besides actual preload is all we would see? No galling effect, no burnt lube from previous assembly effect, gasket crush, etc etc? too many variables to consider. I'm sure most will agree though, of a blown or leaking HG when it's not enough clamping force.

Fastener science has been around just a tad longer than anyone still alive viewing this today!
Not here to debate the reasoning of the stud, or how it was brought into play for our CRD. I have no doubt it surpasses the oem bolt by miles!
WHATS GOING ON BELOW DECK is what I'm talking about.
Your 'pig iron' is not quite the junk that any engine manufacture uses..
you got your carbon, silicon, nickel, just to name a few alloyants...
Our thin walled lil puffer is a dry sleeved engine. It has parent bores that help support and distribute loads going from the oil pan rails up to the deck surface... as well as the external walls.
Wet sleeve engines are much thicker external wall. Their wet sleeves are almost floating in the block... and nothing but water between them and their neighboring cylinder.. They have a locating bore and step in the top, and just a smooth bore at the bottom. a simple rubber oring keeps the antifreeze and oil in the pan separate.

Because of our more rigid block design.. wall thickness can be reduced to save weight for automotive use.
Our 2.8 VM is almost 300 lbs lighter than it's industrial brother.. with wet sleeves, granted, iron head doesn't help either!

anyhow, back to point! All I am trying to say is block distortion is a fact that should not be just poo poo'd off!
I am not a real strong guy, but when I had the head off my cummins, and had the dial bore gauge in the cylinder.. I could push in on the OUTSIDE of the block and get a 1-2 thousandth variation on the cylinder measurement! I did it to prove a youtube video showing the same thing.. I didn't believe it until I duplicated it.
Granted, the head was not on, the main caps not installed.. but measly ol me could push in on the side of the block with my bare hands and move it.

We've all felt the infamous 'shudder'. it's pretty good rumble! Has anyone ever had the hood off to witness what that engine is doing during this? It can't be good! Maybe that is why motor mounts go south so quickly!
Mine sure did... right after I installed the eco tune ft.. my shudder appeared, and within a month my motor mounts are totally junk.
I only allowed it to shudder a couple times, to find the 'sweet spot', to keep it from doing it.
Shaking the snot out of these engines shouldn't be discounted for developing a crack either.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:31 am

You are the only person I have ever heard call this a "dry sleeve" motor, and that includes the manufacturer's own engineers in this country that I have spoken with on the phone. I'm glad you are around to correct all of us, you might want to give VM a call and tell them about how they are wrong about what their own engine is.

I'm also sorry that I didn't take pictures when I was tearing down my wrecked block to scrap it, but there wasn't a whole lot inside there other than air between the liners. I guess the iron in between was invisible?

I don't care if a cummins engine could distort under finger pressure - this isn't a cummins engine. But it also only needs to retain water pressure of about 18psi, and even a very thin steel wall can do far more than that - they call it the hull of a ship. I think our engine has a lot less work being done to hold in the coolant pressures. Casting failures are the most likely source of this problem, rather than shaking of the entire block - it is one big piece that would all be shaking at exactly the same oscillation and direction. The motor mounts aren't the same, part of them is moving (on the engine) and part isn't (on the frame) so there can easily be shear damage.

rancherman · **Posted:** Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:46 am

geordi wrote:

You are the only person I have ever heard call this a "dry sleeve" motor, and that includes the manufacturer's own engineers in this country that I have spoken with on the phone. I'm glad you are around to correct all of us, you might want to give VM a call and tell them about how they are wrong about what their own engine is.

I'm also sorry that I didn't take pictures when I was tearing down my wrecked block to scrap it, but there wasn't a whole lot inside there other than air between the liners. I guess the iron in between was invisible?

I don't care if a cummins engine could distort under finger pressure - this isn't a cummins engine. But it also only needs to retain water pressure of about 18psi, and even a very thin steel wall can do far more than that - they call it the hull of a ship. I think our engine has a lot less work being done to hold in the coolant pressures. Casting failures are the most likely source of this problem, rather than shaking of the entire block - it is one big piece that would all be shaking at exactly the same oscillation and direction. The motor mounts aren't the same, part of them is moving (on the engine) and part isn't (on the frame) so there can easily be shear damage.

whoops!
I'll admit when I'm wrong! I got too many engines on the brain this past week. All in various stages of scatteredness...
kudos on calling me out! I'm certainly not perfect and of course I'll give you a glorious high 5 for pointing it out!

Still, a casting failure would be considered a flop right out of the mold. 'fatigue' takes a little time to develop.
Hell, even the fabled 'cummins' has a bad batch of '53' blocks, prone to cracking in one particular spot.
Many many threads devoted to the fix of that problem. In a nutshell, it involves 'v'ing out the crack, pinning (drilling holes diagonally across crack, and riveting in tiny pins) right at the start of the crack... then filling the 'v' back in with a nickel rod filler.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:27 am

I've heard about the block repairs (I didn't think they were cummins but I also wasn't paying too close attention as I don't own the affected engine) and it sounds like a huge pain... But not surprising that any manufacturer would just avoid dealing with the issue.

In our case with the CRD, VM has basically washed their hands of this unit, and we are on our own. If this is a casting flaw that is widespread... We may all need to deal with this spot at some point. To my knowledge, there isn't a specific casting number to look for on the block to help identify potential failure-prone units. I'd REALLY like to be wrong about that however.

Does anyone know if there is a casting number on the block somewhere visible that we can compare between bad and good (for now) blocks? Does anyone know where the blocks were made, and if they all came from the same foundry?

amslube · **Posted:** Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:56 pm

I got the engine out today to finally see where my coolant leak is coming from. No good news! Pictures I posted at the beginning of this thread are only a small area. It is a crack in the block that starts around one corner of the block, continues all along the rear of the block and around the other corner. Total length is about 8 inches. The crack along the back is right at the sharp machined corner that was machined for the transmission adapter plate. Cleaned and ground the area and applied a generous coating of JB Weld and will apply a second coat tomorrow. I am not expecting this to be a long term fix but may get by for a while until a replacement vehicle can be found. The pic below shows the extent of the crack. The cooling system is pressurized with 16psi of air with soapy water sprayed on the cracked area.

We had our Liberty for over 8 years and it has been a very reliable vehicle, never left my wife stranded but I feel at this point it's time to move on. If I could get a reasonably priced block somewhere I might consider doing a rebuild but as we all know these are a rare animal.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:40 pm

JB weld fixed a leak in the radiator of my 1983 Mercedes, must be over 8 years now.

diesellady · **Joined:** Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:06 pm **Posts:** 15

Man this is soooo not good. I was hoping you would find an easy fix for this as I am looking at the same problem. So is the jb weld the only option you think would work? This sucks so bad. I have a full ats trans in mine and it still runs great. Just keeps getting worse with the leak. And I assume now it won't get any better. "(

flman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:53 am

Man that sucks, did you consider welding it?

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:00 am

If "spot" welding it every inch with an inch gap, and applying jb weld or some epoxy is an option, I'd go with that. You may be surprised on how well will hold. Sorry for your issue, that's probably one of the few things that can't be easily fixed...

amslube · **Posted:** Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:48 am

At this point pretty much waving the "surrender" flag and hoping the JB Weld holds or at least slows the leak. Starting the research and shopping process for a new vehicle.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:06 am

So sorry to hear about your misfortune with this.

DOC

amslube · **Posted:** Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:37 am

Condolences are appreciated....almost like losing a family member or a good friend!

Perforated Block??

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