Turbo Seals Leaking

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Today, my CRD threw P0234 and P0102, turbo over boost and mass airflow low error codes. MIL light, limp in mode, lack of power, enormous clouds of blue smoke, 20 feet high at idle, lots more at take off, clears on higher speeds. Oil level dropped nearly a quart in 3 days, no leaks, but inside of turbo hose from turbo to intercooler, which was cleaned a short while ago, is loaded and dripping with engine oil, oil dripping from intercooler inlet pipe also. Provent has very little oil in it, and output from provent to turbo is clean and dry. No oil leaks anywhere on the engine top, sides or bottom. Except for sluggish power, engine runs good, but smoke is annoying to say the least. Exhaust smells like burning motor oil. 20K miles.

Has anyone else had a turbo throw a code and blast engine oil into the intake?

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Fri May 26, 2006 5:45 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Today, my CRD threw P0234 and P0102, turbo over boost and mass airflow low error codes. MIL light, limp in mode, lack of power, enormous clouds of blue smoke, 20 feet high at idle, lots more at take off, clears on higher speeds. Oil level dropped nearly a quart in 3 days, no leaks, but inside of turbo hose from turbo to intercooler, which was cleaned a short while ago, is loaded and dripping with engine oil, oil dripping from intercooler inlet pipe also. Provent has very little oil in it, and output from provent to turbo is clean and dry. No oil leaks anywhere on the engine top, sides or bottom. Except for sluggish power, engine runs good, but smoke is annoying to say the least. Exhaust smells like burning motor oil. 20K miles.

Has anyone else had a turbo throw a code and blast engine oil into the intake?

I view all engines as big air pumps.
Is the air filter clogged? An increase in oil in the intercooler can sometimes be caused by restriction of air flow.
Also, check:
Plugged CCV
Restricted Turbo drain line
Leakage at Turbo mounting flange (usually gasket failure)
Overfill Crank Case
Restricted engine exhaust
Loose connection lines between turbo, intake and intercooler

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Air filter is 4 weeks old, clean. I've seen RFRD's post on excessive oil getting into his CRD's intercooler and intake, but I haven't found any posts by searching, where the P0234 code was set, MIL lit and limp in occuring, all with massive amounts of blue oil smoke and heavy engine oil loss. Coolant is clean and correct level. No unusual noise from engine mechanicals. Engine sounds smooth, runs good, just very slow when not in limp-in mode. Seems to go in and out of limp in mode. You can tell when limp in mode happens - no engine rpm above idle when accelerator is floored.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Fri May 26, 2006 5:58 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Air filter is 4 weeks old, clean. I've seen RFRD's post on excessive oil getting into his CRD's intercooler and intake, but I haven't found any posts by searching, where the P0234 code was set, MIL lit and limp in occuring, all with massive amounts of blue oil smoke and heavy engine oil loss. Coolant is clean and correct level. No unusual noise from engine mechanicals. Engine sounds smooth, runs good, just very slow when not in limp-in mode. Seems to go in and out of limp in mode. You can tell when limp in mode happens - no engine rpm above idle when accelerator is floored.

I edited previous post with few more items I added to check.

P0234 - Is a boost pressure negative deviation error. This would imply that the engine is not getting enough boost pressure to give you the power that it needs. So it would imply there is an air pressure leak somewhere in the system of turbo, intercooler and intake.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I've checked everything except these 2:

Restricted Turbo drain line
Leakage at Turbo mounting flange (usually gasket failure)

Oil level is now at min line, was right a max fill mark 3 days ago. After checking input to Provent from oem ccv, could see plenty of oil fumes coming in. can feel air pressure going out of provent into turbo input. Will vent oem ccv to outside air, eliminating provent, to see if smoke condition changes. Exhaust flow is pretty strong at idle. Looks like some work to do tomorrow checking it out.

Then there are the 2 error codes. A little conflict seemingly - Mass Air Flow is in low error range, turbo error code is overboost range code. Pulled the codes and freeze frame data that set the P0234, turbo over boost, and the freeze fame stored data shows a peak boost of 75 psi at an air temp of 180F which caused the code - way out of spec. Max boost spec I've seen for CRD is 26.5 psi at sea level.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Fri May 26, 2006 6:18 pm

75 PSI!

I can only think of two things for that. Sensor problem with boost pressure (it might not like an oil bath) or the EGR flow control butterfly stuck closed. High pressure and low flow with nowhere for the air to go? Just a thought. Does a turbo with a blown seal turn faster than normal without the seal drag? That could also cause overboost if it does.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Good possibility - stuck air flow valve. When I shut the engine off, I can hear that familar click, but I'll pull the turbo hose tomorrow and see what that air flow valve flap looks like. That might also explain what I think is limp in mode - no power or engine rpm above idle.

I'm thinking out loud here - If the air flow valve did malfunction and stick closed, I can see where the boost might spike, even to 75 psi, possibly blowing the turbo oil seals, but you would think the PCM would sense the boost spike and send command signal to the vgt vanes to back off. But, if the air flow valve was stuck shut, even briefly, it would still build too much boost even with the vanes set for minumum boost.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Fri May 26, 2006 6:43 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

I'm thinking out loud here - If the air flow valve did malfunction and stick closed, I can see where the boost might spike, even to 75 psi, possibly blowing the turbo oil seals, but you would think the PCM would sense the boost spike and send command signal to the vgt vanes to back off. But, if the air flow valve was stuck shut, even briefly, it would still build too much boost even with the vanes set for minumum boost.

Your correct the ECM "should" set the turbo vanes to just feather in the air flow if the boost spikes to prevent blown seals.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

If the egr air flow valve malfunctions, closes while full boost is on, I could see spikes happening. I'm wondering if the VGT vanes can really respond fast enough, being vacuum activated, if the air valve closes while under high boost - if the boost spike lasted even a second or two, it might be enough to weaken the turbo seals. Especially if the air flow valve fails intermittently on a onging basis, overpressurizing the seals over time. Man these vehicles need a standard boost gauge. That would help considerably when boost problems happen. If I hadn't been able to pul the freeze frame data, there is no way I would have even suspected excessive boost.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Fri May 26, 2006 6:58 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Man these vehicles need a standard boost gauge. That would help considerably when boost problems happen. If I hadn't been able to pul the freeze frame data, there is no way I would have even suspected excessive boost.

You've hit it! The boost gauge can be used to monitor if the EGR valve is not functioning properly or going on the fritz. Yes, I agree that a boost guage and pyro meter should have come as standard instrumentation equipment.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri May 26, 2006 9:51 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

If the egr air flow valve malfunctions, closes while full boost is on, I could see spikes happening. I'm wondering if the VGT vanes can really respond fast enough, being vacuum activated, if the air valve closes while under high boost - if the boost spike lasted even a second or two, it might be enough to weaken the turbo seals. Especially if the air flow valve fails intermittently on a onging basis, overpressurizing the seals over time. Man these vehicles need a standard boost gauge. That would help considerably when boost problems happen. If I hadn't been able to pul the freeze frame data, there is no way I would have even suspected excessive boost.

Have a gut hunch that if you are seeing an overboost it's because the VGT blades a coked/sticking or the vaccume control mechanism for the VGT isn't working properly. I know I sound like a broken record, VGT blades will eventually coke and start sticking when you pass oil through this type of engine. Just turns into a gooey mess on the black side of the turbo.

Jeger · **Posted:** Fri May 26, 2006 10:10 pm

Im not sure what type of gauge you have, but it may be a good idea for anyone adding a boost gauge to get one that records your max boost pressure. This way you would know right away of possible problems. You may even be able to tell if your overboost error code was actual or just a malfunctioning sensor.

Hey I just realized that somewhere there must already be a boost sensor, how else would you know the boost went to 75 PSI? Unless you got that freeze frame data from your gauges. If thats the case I am completly wrong. But hey, someones got to do it :wink:

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

there must already be a boost sensor

There is. It's a combination manifold air pressure and air temperature sensor. It's mounted on the driver side of the engine head, just under the fuel rail toward the firewall. It's the sensor just behind the fuel rail sensor.

TurboC5 · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 12:30 pm

Quick check of the turbo-
Pull the intake pipe off the turbo inlet. Stick your fingers in there and wiggle it side to side and in and out. If it moves more than .015" each way, it's blown. With the amount of oil burn off you are having I'd guess the compressor wheel is just flopping around in there cuase the bearings are gone. An over boost of 75psi on a tiny turbo like the CRD's will over spin that turbo enough to take it out in one shot.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Checked the play on the compressor - vertically I can't detect any. Horizontal play, is a good 3/16". Compressor blades are in very good shape. No visible signs of damage. The compressor spins freely without noise - but it does have what seems like excessive horizontal end to end movement. In fact, when running the engine, you can hear the turbo whine and it sounds normal.

Over on the engine intake, the case of the egr air flow valve is weeping oil on the top surface, at the seam where the outer cover joins the main body. Not surprising with the amount of oil loss.

A thorough inspection of the engine pan, transmission to engine seams and anywhere else oil might be leaking comes up dry. Coolant is clean, but oil in the hoses is way over any normal amount. It's liquid engine oil in both hoses.

I'm done inspecting - its going back for repair.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 4:23 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Checked the play on the compressor - vertically I can't detect any. Horizontal play, is a good 3/16". Compressor blades are in very good shape. No visible signs of damage. The compressor spins freely without noise - but it does have what seems like excessive horizontal end to end movement. In fact, when running the engine, you can hear the turbo whine and it sounds normal.

Over on the engine intake, the case of the egr air flow valve is weeping oil on the top surface, at the seam where the outer cover joins the main body. Not surprising with the amount of oil loss.

A thorough inspection of the engine pan, transmission to engine seams and anywhere else oil might be leaking comes up dry. Coolant is clean, but oil in the hoses is way over any normal amount. It's liquid engine oil in both hoses.

I'm done inspecting - its going back for repair.

Am I reading this correctly, you have 3/16" horizontal (end to end) free play but the actual shaft bearing is tight? On Garrett turbos 5 times that size I don't recall more than maybe 1/32" end play. That sounds very loose. Second question, does yours use excessive oil at a constant rate or intermittantly?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Yes, excessive end to end play, but almost no vertical slop. Spins freely when turned by hand.

Oil consumption - it just started in the last week, along with the blue exhaust smoking - hard to tell other than its losing a quart every ~ 3 days or approximately 200 miles. I've been on the road this last week and I check the oil level at each fuel up. Friday a week ago, it was on the max mark - by Tuesday, it was down to Min on the dipstick. Added a quart and it came back to just on the Max mark. By this past Friday, it was down to the Min mark again. Oil measured when hot, after waiting 5 minutes past engine shutdown. Topped off today and it took exactly one quart to bring it very close to the Max mark again.

I also disconnected the turbo hose from the intercooler at the front of the vehicle on the passenger side, then started the engine. If I rev the engine to 1200 rpm it blows oil 20 feet from the end of the turbo hose - a lot of oil. No doubt where the oil is coming from. Spent all morning cleaning the driveway up.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 8:47 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Yes, excessive end to end play, but almost no vertical slop. Spins freely when turned by hand.

Oil consumption - it just started in the last week, along with the blue exhaust smoking - hard to tell other than its losing a quart every ~ 3 days or approximately 200 miles. I've been on the road this last week and I check the oil level at each fuel up. Friday a week ago, it was on the max mark - by Tuesday, it was down to Min on the dipstick. Added a quart and it came back to just on the Max mark. By this past Friday, it was down to the Min mark again. Oil measured when hot, after waiting 5 minutes past engine shutdown. Topped off today and it took exactly one quart to bring it very close to the Max mark again.

I also disconnected the turbo hose from the intercooler at the front of the vehicle on the passenger side, then started the engine. If I rev the engine to 1200 rpm it blows oil 20 feet from the end of the turbo hose - a lot of oil. No doubt where the oil is coming from. Spent all morning cleaning the driveway up.

Oops, so much for the driveway. You didn't see an easy way to slip the intercooler out? Wondering if removing the fan shroud and engine fan/clutch, tilt the rad toward the motor if it could be removed and cleaned.

After installing the Provent (6K) and completely cleaning all the CAC hoses, airbox and inlet hose to the turbo my CAC was bone dry for 4000 miles. I had also changed oil (5W40 Rotella) that remained 1/8" from full this entire time. I also check oil after every refill (@400 miles) and looked inside the CAC hose on the turbo side about every other refill. CAC was bone dry/oil full one week, 400 miles later was down over 1/2 quart and oil contaminated completely through to the throttle plate. Being down on oil was the clue to pull the CAC hose! My consumption is not consistant. I have 500 miles on mine since I changed oil last, already lost 1/2 qt. The sad part about it is this motor is a running fool. Went for a long hard drive today, did the Italian tune-up and all. Shuddered like hell after that for a couple of miles, thought it was going to stall on me.

TurboC5 · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 9:48 pm

Blown turbo. Your thrust bearing is toast. That could be a result of faulty air flow valve (and no pop off valve for safety). When you lose your thrust bearing it becomes imposable for the turbine side seal to make a good carbon seal anymore. So as pressurized oil is pumped into the top of you bearing housing, some of it is pumping right into the turbine housing and burning off.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 10:08 pm

TurboC5 wrote:

Blown turbo. Your thrust bearing is toast. That could be a result of faulty air flow valve (and no pop off valve for safety). When you lose your thrust bearing it becomes imposable for the turbine side seal to make a good carbon seal anymore. So as pressurized oil is pumped into the top of you bearing housing, some of it is pumping right into the turbine housing and burning off.

What's most puzzling is that DC is basicly telling me to get off their case, writing this off as normal for the CRD. I've had a lot of big turbo diesel motors, only once had a wet CAC and that one when it sucked an airfilter inside-out. Some of those were well over 500K miles on original turbos without problems. Wet CAC as normal, bulls@#%t.

Turbo Seals Leaking

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