Bad engine noise?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:50 am

What about 10w-30 ?
I can get Rotella 10w-30 semi synthetic at Walmart.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:07 pm

lacabrera wrote:

I really don't get why cant we find a 5w30 diesel oil in the store...

Are you searching for 5W30 dedicated for diesel engines? Just that on the bottles here it says suitable for diesel and petrol engines including turbo's.
Any one have the answer about removing the oil pan without removing the engine?

You'd have to look at the API seal on the bottle to know if it would be a suitable option. I don't know what options are suggested for the rest of the world, versus here. The manual says we should be using only a 0w-40 or a 5w-40, and that 40 weight number is the one that really matters the most. The specification for the USA also takes into account pollution controls and emissions standards and soot load from the EGR system... Which most of us probably aren't too worried about. But health of the engine is the primary concern.

The API service grade seal will say "Sx" where x is some other letter, this is the grade level for a spark ignition engine. Gasser. We need to find a bottle that has a "Cx" grade, where the x is AT LEAST an F or higher. In ascending order, CF is the lowest acceptable, but also the most common. CG, CH, CI, CI-4, CJ, CJ-4... Etc are all higher than CF.

Then there is the synthetic versus standard oil debate - I wouldn't even jump into that at all, stay with pure synthetics. They are proven to run longer, hotter, and still remain protective to the engine surfaces without burning or turning to sludge.

When I was younger and dumber, I drove a 5 liter Ford V-8 as an AIR COOLED engine for about 500 miles, over the span of about 5-6 really bad overheating cycles because of a pinhole in the water system that I could never locate. I was too dumb to know about pressurizing the cooling system with a cold engine to find the leak, and I eventually picked up a cylinder rattle on that engine. It also had 245k miles on it at the time, and conventional wisdom at the time said that engine was done. Reality is, the synthetic oil I was using protected that motor, and if I hadn't been a moron, that engine might still be running today.

Synthetic works. If you can find a full synthetic with a CF or higher grade... a 10w-30 might be OK to try too... But I don't know if the payoff will be worth the risk to the motor unless somewhere else in the world with a similar climate is also authorized for that oil rating.

Does anyone have access to a chart or book that shows what VM suggests for their engines around the world? A VM428 engine is functionally similar to ours, so that could be the benchmark.

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:58 pm

I agree, every time somebody recommends an oil there must be some form of debate. Lol. Kind of funny... Keith said the European model has also specified 5w30 diesel oil. I also tried to look up oils by acea standard with no luck. I mean here in us. You can find lots of it on eBay for 2x the price of 40 weight...

We have though plenty options 5w30 for gassers, turbo or non turbo. Mobil 1 extend performance 5w30 is one of the best there is.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:45 pm

As printed on the oil can of my fully synthetic 5w-30. (Meets or exceeds requirements of the following specifications API SN/CF, ACEA C3, BMW LL-04, MB229.31/229.51, GM DEXOS2.)
You might find this useful http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html or possibly amusing.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:57 pm

lacabrera wrote:

I really don't get why cant we find a 5w30 diesel oil in the store...

Are you searching for 5W30 dedicated for diesel engines? Just that on the bottles here it says suitable for diesel and petrol engines including turbo's.
Any one have the answer about removing the oil pan without removing the engine?

I don't think you can remove the pan without pulling the engine. I doubt there would be enough room to get it around the pick up tube or the balance shaft assembly. The rod bolts are TTY and would have to be replaced. The crank journals wouldn't be visible at all unless you removed the crankshaft which has to go out the back of the engine. The bolts holding the bearing retainers together are also TTY and would need to be replaced.

Mike

lacabrera · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:24 pm

Thanks for the reply, I have replaced piston rings and big end bearing shells in a couple of engines in the past with the motor still in the car. Was hoping to do similar with this one. Some one mentioned on a different forum it was possible by releasing the engine mounts and jacking it up a few inches but that could have been the older export model with the steel oil pan?
My engine sounds ok at running temperature but on cold start I feel there is a bottom end knock on one con rod. The sound seems to be timed once with one full revolution. Only lasts for around 1 minute.

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:42 pm

Lacabrera, I'm thinking you may do it with the engine in the jeep and remove the diff and subframe, but I bet it's more work than just removing the engine.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:27 pm

thermorex wrote:

Lacabrera, I'm thinking you may do it with the engine in the jeep and remove the diff and subframe, but I bet it's more work than just removing the engine.

hmm, you might be onto something. That k-frame bolts to the unibody with 6 big bolts that you can remove in seconds with air. Then there's a couple of bolts for powersteering bits, both LCA's, and the axle shafts, and have to drop the front dif, and pull the stabilizing bar. And two motor mounts. Then support the engine from the top?

I don't think it's much more work than pulling the front dif as you have to pull almost all of that stuff to do that anyhow :2cents:

oh, The two big steering rack bolts are easy with a no mechanical fan in the way :rockon:

lacabrera · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:38 am

Yes I recon its easier to pull the sub frame than removing the engine. When I have some time, going to see if the oil pan can be removed with just lifting the motor off its mountings. If not than its the sub frame and take a chance that its not too serious, and the motor has to be removed. Will let you know how things go. My main concern for doing this is to check for loose con rod bolts? and if possible replace the shells. Judging by the condition of my oil pump that I replaced I do not expect to see scoring on the crank journals but I guess time will tell.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:54 am

I think the lower arms are also secured on the subframe, and taking those apart would require new alignment. Unless you take the subframe with the lca in it.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:16 am

lacabrera wrote:

Yes I recon its easier to pull the sub frame than removing the engine. When I have some time, going to see if the oil pan can be removed with just lifting the motor off its mountings. If not than its the sub frame and take a chance that its not too serious, and the motor has to be removed. Will let you know how things go. My main concern for doing this is to check for loose con rod bolts? and if possible replace the shells. Judging by the condition of my oil pump that I replaced I do not expect to see scoring on the crank journals but I guess time will tell.

If you loosen the connecting rod bolts, make sure you replace them. They're TTY bolts, and have to be tightened in a specific torque\angle sequence. Also, make sure you don't mix up or reverse the caps.

Mike

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:29 am

I wonder if anyone has come up with a good number of ft/lbs. to torque the caps to? I think I'm more likely to mess up the angle thing... Not that it's complicated, but after seeing how random the force in on the heads, I think it's lame :furious:

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:47 am

The best way I could think of to determine an actual torque rating (for standard bolts or ARP rated hardware) is to get a rod or other proper nut and steel sleeve, lock them in a vise, and torque the TTY according to spec. I believe (I haven't bought one yet to try) that the digital torque gauge from Harbor Freight might be able to record the max torque number, and that would be the number I would try with another of the same bolts in the jig. If it felt the same and or turned the same number of turns... Go with that.

ARP may have a more scientific method, I am not the engineer that worked with them to determine the torque ratings for the head studs, but if I was to dig into one of these engines to replace the rod bolts, FER DAM SURE I would be calling them. The only other idea I'd have is to carefully drill and tap the end of the actual bolt itself, such that I could install a thin "keeper" bolt from the other direction through the open end of the rod's threaded holes. Something that would lock that rod bolt in place from backing out, EVER.

Yeah, I've conceptualized this in my head a bit, but never tried any of these crazy ideas.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:51 am

geordi wrote:

The best way I could think of to determine an actual torque rating (for standard bolts or ARP rated hardware) is to get a rod or other proper nut and steel sleeve, lock them in a vise, and torque the TTY according to spec. I believe (I haven't bought one yet to try) that the digital torque gauge from Harbor Freight might be able to record the max torque number, and that would be the number I would try with another of the same bolts in the jig. If it felt the same and or turned the same number of turns... Go with that.

ARP may have a more scientific method, I am not the engineer that worked with them to determine the torque ratings for the head studs, but if I was to dig into one of these engines to replace the rod bolts, FER DAM SURE I would be calling them. The only other idea I'd have is to carefully drill and tap the end of the actual bolt itself, such that I could install a thin "keeper" bolt from the other direction through the open end of the rod's threaded holes. Something that would lock that rod bolt in place from backing out, EVER.

Yeah, I've conceptualized this in my head a bit, but never tried any of these crazy ideas.

Thanks Geordi! I may soon have a core heading my way that has a bad bearing in the bottom end. Should be an adventure :frankie:

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:07 am

The sequence on those bolts isn't nearly as complicated as a head gasket, and with the exception of ARP bolts, TTY sounds like the better way to go in this application.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:13 pm

I despise TTY bolts because the performance is not consistent or accurately predictable. I don't know why manufacturers love them so much, VW is loaded with them.

Whenever I am working on a vehicle with these things, I try very hard to replace all of the sucky TTY fasteners with grade 5 or grade 8 replacements. It is a fastener - let it do its job well within the elastic range, not right to the limit of the plastic range!

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:19 pm

geordi wrote:

I despise TTY bolts because the performance is not consistent or accurately predictable. I don't know why manufacturers love them so much, VW is loaded with them.

Whenever I am working on a vehicle with these things, I try very hard to replace all of the sucky TTY fasteners with grade 5 or grade 8 replacements. It is a fastener - let it do its job well within the elastic range, not right to the limit of the plastic range!

I was told that machines torque them, and that's why it's in degrees??? :5SHOTS:

lacabrera · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:57 pm

Not sure about the con rod bolts but the head bolts are torqued with a machine that torques the lot in one go. The torque sequence is for future repairs. I guess the reason for complicated sequence for the head bolts is to compress the head gasket evenly. VM and other manufactures found problems if you rely on a torque setting for the final tighten.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:07 pm

Made a start today delving into removing the oil pan, Yes you can remove it with out removing the engine from the car or removing the front cross member, but its not for the faint hearted and would be impossible with out first removing the head. If you remove the engine mounts and lift the engine as far as it will go, you can drop the sump enough to gain access to the bolt that holds the oil pick up pipe in the oil pan and remove both together. For me the above was a waste of time as the engine has to be removed to replace the main crankshaft shells/bearings :banghead:

and possibly have the crank reground.
Just in case some one requires to remove the oil pan, when the engine mounts are removed and lift the engine the gap between the upper and lower mounting points must be at least 5.3/4" to stand any chance of removing the oil pan?

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:36 am

lacabrera wrote:

Made a start today delving into removing the oil pan, Yes you can remove it with out removing the engine from the car or removing the front cross member, but its not for the faint hearted and would be impossible with out first removing the head. If you remove the engine mounts and lift the engine as far as it will go, you can drop the sump enough to gain access to the bolt that holds the oil pick up pipe in the oil pan and remove both together. For me the above was a waste of time as the engine has to be removed to replace the main crankshaft shells/bearings :banghead:

and possibly have the crank reground.
Just in case some one requires to remove the oil pan, when the engine mounts are removed and lift the engine the gap between the upper and lower mounting points must be at least 5.3/4" to stand any chance of removing the oil pan?

Good info, thanks for sharing!

Bad engine noise?

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