Turbo Seals Leaking

TurboC5 · **Posted:** Sun May 28, 2006 12:27 am

I can pull up the Garrett spec for that turbo but I assure you it's beyond 'service limit' in thrust play. If you’re saying the thrust play is WELL over .100” and service limit is ~.030” you are This is like if you had a blown head gasket and only 60psi static compression on one cylinder and they say, that’s good enough. Have them tell you what the service limit is on your turbos shaft play and have them measure it with a dial indicator. Then they’ll see the problem and replace the turbo. But whatever caused the turbo to go bad will still kill the next turbo if it isn’t fixed.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun May 28, 2006 12:47 am

Ranger1 wrote:

Today, my CRD threw P0234 and P0102, turbo over boost and mass airflow low error codes. MIL light, limp in mode, lack of power, enormous clouds of blue smoke, 20 feet high at idle, lots more at take off, clears on higher speeds. Oil level dropped nearly a quart in 3 days, no leaks, but inside of turbo hose from turbo to intercooler, which was cleaned a short while ago, is loaded and dripping with engine oil, oil dripping from intercooler inlet pipe also. Provent has very little oil in it, and output from provent to turbo is clean and dry. No oil leaks anywhere on the engine top, sides or bottom. Except for sluggish power, engine runs good, but smoke is annoying to say the least. Exhaust smells like burning motor oil. 20K miles.

Has anyone else had a turbo throw a code and blast engine oil into the intake?

Now that you mention it, those are two of the 3 codes they pulled off my friend's CRD when they determined his turbo had gone south. Before that, he'd had the mixing valve malfunction and replaced. And before any of the above two, he had enough oil in his intake system to do a complete oil change.

Perhaps the CCV, while still a contributor, may not be the major culprit in the worst cases of oil in the intake system. Starting to sound as if some people got stuck with bad turbos, or the seals were inadvertently damaged by other problems.

In my friend's case, shortly after purchasing the vehicle, the turbo discharge hose blew off because of a loose clamp while his wife was driving to work. I saw the aftermath, it blew oil all over the engine compartment. I wonder if this incident damaged the turbo seals due to the sudden loss of any backpressure on the discharge, leading to the gross amounts of oil in the intake, leading to the EGR and mixing valve failures, and to the eventual demise of the turbo itself.

Or it could be it wasn't a loose clamp. He might have had the same events occur, a mixing valve malfunction causing a high spike in pressure and damaging the turbo seals, and at the same time the pressure spike was high enough to blow the hose off the turbo discharge. That would explain the copious amounts of oil blown into the engine compartment, even though he had less than 2K miles on the vehicle at the time.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

TurboC5 wrote:

I can pull up the Garrett spec for that turbo but I assure you it's beyond 'service limit' in thrust play. If you’re saying the thrust play is WELL over .100” and service limit is ~.030” you are This is like if you had a blown head gasket and only 60psi static compression on one cylinder and they say, that’s good enough. Have them tell you what the service limit is on your turbos shaft play and have them measure it with a dial indicator. Then they’ll see the problem and replace the turbo. But whatever caused the turbo to go bad will still kill the next turbo if it isn’t fixed.

The end play is well over .100" - you can feel and hear a clunk when it is moved end to end. 3/16" is an easy estimate of the end play. When I first discovered oil in the turbo, not long after buying the CRD, I had less than 2500 miles on it. I pulled the turbo inlet hose and checked the compressor wheel for play - almost nothing. That's when I installed a Provent, last April of 2005. I originally thought the turbo was bad because sometimes I accelerated, then backed off, there (and still is) was a very loud metallic rattle sound coming from the turbo area. That sound has progressively become worse, to the point where it now makes that sound when accelerating. However, it does it only about 2 or 3 times on a daily drive. I originally thought this might be what some describe as "turbo bark", due to lack of a wastegate, but now I'm not sure. This noise is not the normal turbo whine, which sounds good, but an extremely raspy rattling sound, very much like metal grinding on metal. I could not see or feel any metal to metal contact at either 2500 or 20,000 miles when I inspected the compressor wheel. Makes me wonder if the turbo wasn't having problems with boost spikes from day one. A friend of mine has an 05 CRD, and his has made this sound only once that I can remember and it was much, much lower in volume. Barely audible, but I was listening for the sound. His did it under the same accelerate, then back off condition.

Would like to know what model turbo the CRD has. The only numbers I can see are something like L117A or LA117 - with a .53 stamped on the compressor housing.

UPDATE: In addition to the P0234 and P0102, it now has the infamous P0401 code, egr insufficent flow or negative deviation. The egr valve has apparently taken all of the oil it can handle. This is the same error code I had when the egr went out the first time.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

At the rate OBD codes are appearing, maybe I should put the rear wheels up on blocks and run it a while - so they can get it all at one time and save all the trips back to the dealer :-)

I have to say, I like this CRD enough to put up with all of the failures and repairs. I just hope this is the last of it.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

In my friend's case, shortly after purchasing the vehicle, the turbo discharge hose blew off because of a loose clamp while his wife was driving to work. I saw the aftermath, it blew oil all over the engine compartment. I wonder if this incident damaged the turbo seals due to the sudden loss of any backpressure on the discharge, leading to the gross amounts of oil in the intake, leading to the EGR and mixing valve failures, and to the eventual demise of the turbo itself.

Or it could be it wasn't a loose clamp. He might have had the same events occur, a mixing valve malfunction causing a high spike in pressure and damaging the turbo seals, and at the same time the pressure spike was high enough to blow the hose off the turbo discharge. That would explain the copious amounts of oil blown into the engine compartment, even though he had less than 2K miles on the vehicle at the time.

In analyzing this turbo failure, as well as the egr, glow plugs, torque converter and transmission shudder, I looked for a common component to all of these systems, one with known issues. I came up with software, as in the 4 PCM updates and at least 2 TCM updates on my CRD.
The software controls nearly everything on the CRD powertrain - turbo vgt vanes, egr cycling, egr air control valve position, engine timing, fuel injection, transmission shifting and matching gear ratios to engine power curve and vehicle speed.

So perhaps the boost spikes are yet another software bug remaining to be identified.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 8:20 am

Ranger1 wrote:

So perhaps the boost spikes are yet another software bug remaining to be identified.

More likely a hardware problem. Have seen lots of VGT's that get coked up and start sticking. Once a motor starts passing oil (for whatever reason, CCV, turbo, bad rings, etc...) it doesn't take very long to start the death spin. That why I won't live with this vehicle passing oil, either it gets fixed or it goes bye-bye. BTW, it's been @ 600 miles since I changed oil last, was down 1/2 qt. last night when I gave it a once over.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 9:50 am

Ranger1 wrote:

Would like to know what model turbo the CRD has. The only numbers I can see are something like L117A or LA117 - with a .53 stamped on the compressor housing.

Reading Ranger1 posts this weekend, I decided to teardown to the Turbo. Since having the 05 CRD new, I always had an oily film in the engine bay. It runs out oil was sweating through the hose exiting the compressor housing. As I took off the hose and inspected it, it had oil in the hose. It turns out in my case that the Turbo pressurizing the hose at 2 Bar is enough to make the oil sweat through the hose. Suspecting the turbo seals were bad, I tore down and examined the turbo.
The OEM code on my CRD turbo is 35242112G. Hope that helps.

It turns out that I'm having excessive blow by from the CCV which is being pulled into the CAC. Unless we get a status report from OLDNAVY on his new CCV system from the GTG this weekend, I'm ordering a Provent 200.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 10:06 am

DZL_LOU wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

Would like to know what model turbo the CRD has. The only numbers I can see are something like L117A or LA117 - with a .53 stamped on the compressor housing.

Reading Ranger1 posts this weekend, I decided to teardown to the Turbo. Since having the 05 CRD new, I always had an oily film in the engine bay. It runs out oil was sweating through the hose exiting the compressor housing. As I took off the hose and inspected it, it had oil in the hose. It turns out in my case that the Turbo pressurizing the hose at 2 Bar is enough to make the oil sweat through the hose. Suspecting the turbo seals were bad, I tore down and examined the turbo.
The OEM code on my CRD turbo is 35242112G. Hope that helps.

It turns out that I'm having excessive blow by from the CCV which is being pulled into the CAC. Unless we get a status report from OLDNAVY on his new CCV system from the GTG this weekend, I'm ordering a Provent 200.

Unfortunately you can't eliminate the turbo as the source until the CCV is filtered. My turbo is tight and still blowing oil like there is no tomorrow. The sooner you get it filtered, the sooner you get to square off with DC on the matter. Most states have a 12 month limit on lemon law action.

TurboC5 · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 2:29 pm

RFCRD wrote:

Unfortunately you can't eliminate the turbo as the source until the CCV is filtered. My turbo is tight and still blowing oil like there is no tomorrow. The sooner you get it filtered, the sooner you get to square off with DC on the matter. Most states have a 12 month limit on lemon law action.

And how is your CCV hooked up?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 4:46 pm

TurboC5 wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

Unfortunately you can't eliminate the turbo as the source until the CCV is filtered. My turbo is tight and still blowing oil like there is no tomorrow. The sooner you get it filtered, the sooner you get to square off with DC on the matter. Most states have a 12 month limit on lemon law action.

And how is your CCV hooked up?

Closed loop through a Provent then into the factory CCV hose. All hoses are see-through clear vynal, little disputing the effectiveness of the Provent with visible results. Line into the Provent is completely coated with black oil sludge, out line is completely clear/clean. Bottom drain from the Provent is tubed into a see-through, sealed drain bottle mounded behind the front bumper for ease of service. I feel this is the lesser of the evils when arguing over warranty. At least I didn't break any laws or disconnect any factory emmissions devices to find that I have oil control problems elsewhere with this engine.

TurboC5 · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 5:05 pm

RFCRD wrote:

Closed loop through a Provent then into the factory CCV hose. All hoses are see-through clear vynal, little disputing the effectiveness of the Provent with visible results. Line into the Provent is completely coated with black oil sludge, out line is completely clear/clean. Bottom drain from the Provent is tubed into a see-through, sealed drain bottle mounded behind the front bumper for ease of service. I feel this is the lesser of the evils when arguing over warranty. At least I didn't break any laws or disconnect any factory emmissions devices to find that I have oil control problems elsewhere with this engine.

Just something to consider, may not be the case here. You may be building up crank case pressure if the Provent isn't high flow enough. I've never used a Provent personally so I don't know how easily they flow. If you are building pressure inside the crank case that will have a very negitive effect on your turbos ability to drain oil. I've seen this on cars that are running closed loop catch cans so bad that the car will dump smoke at idle. Then while running I pulled hose to let it open vent and smoke clears right up. CCV systems must have no restriction. I run mine to a very high flow catch can with it's own air filter, no problems yet.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 5:32 pm

TurboC5 wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

Closed loop through a Provent then into the factory CCV hose. All hoses are see-through clear vynal, little disputing the effectiveness of the Provent with visible results. Line into the Provent is completely coated with black oil sludge, out line is completely clear/clean. Bottom drain from the Provent is tubed into a see-through, sealed drain bottle mounded behind the front bumper for ease of service. I feel this is the lesser of the evils when arguing over warranty. At least I didn't break any laws or disconnect any factory emmissions devices to find that I have oil control problems elsewhere with this engine.

Just something to consider, may not be the case here. You may be building up crank case pressure if the Provent isn't high flow enough. I've never used a Provent personally so I don't know how easily they flow. If you are building pressure inside the crank case that will have a very negitive effect on your turbos ability to drain oil. I've seen this on cars that are running closed loop catch cans so bad that the car will dump smoke at idle. Then while running I pulled hose to let it open vent and smoke clears right up. CCV systems must have no restriction. I run mine to a very high flow catch can with it's own air filter, no problems yet.

Three things to consider: One is that the Provent is working under an effective vaccume that with a healthy engine will be much stronger than any crankcase pressure. However the Provent is designed to flow on either closed or open vent applications. I have pulled the input hose to the Provent and can feel an effective vaccume through the filter even at idle. Two, the Provent is manufactured for this purpose with a relief valve that will open vent if blocked. Three, If you dig through VM Motori's webside and look very close at some photos, you will see a Provent 200 mounted on the side of their engines. To me it's not only a good, cheap CCV filter but also an effective diagnostic tool.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Provent 200 is built exclusively for diesel engines up to 350KW power output. It is flow rated for ~53 gallons/minute (200 liter/minute) or nearly a gallon per second (3.33 liters per second) of blow-by gas flow. Temperature rated from -31F to 248F constant duty, to 285 F intermittently. It can handle an engine with 3 times the power output of a 2.8L CRD.

It has been sucessfully used on VW TDI's for many years. It has a built-in safety relief valve in the cap, factory set for .74 psi, between input and output. Any pressure higher than .74 psi between the crankcase pressure and the output to the fresh air supply side of the turbo hose and it will vent via this relief valve. You can test it by squeezing the output hose and see fumes immediately exit from under the cap. It also has a regulator valve on the output side as well. It was designed by Mann-Hummel, a large German diesel manufacter, as a ccv for diesel engines.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 6:55 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Provent 200 is built exclusively for diesel engines up to 350KW power output. It is flow rated for ~53 gallons/minute (200 liter/minute) or nearly a gallon per second (3.33 liters per second) of blow-by gas flow. Temperature rated from -31F to 248F constant duty, to 285 F intermittently. It can handle an engine with 3 times the power output of a 2.8L CRD.

It has been sucessfully used on VW TDI's for many years. It has a built-in safety relief valve in the cap, factory set for .74 psi, between input and output. Any pressure higher than .74 psi between the crankcase pressure and the output to the fresh air supply side of the turbo hose and it will vent via this relief valve. You can test it by squeezing the output hose and see fumes immediately exit from under the cap. It also has a regulator valve on the output side as well. It was designed by Mann-Hummel, a large German diesel manufacter, as a ccv for diesel engines.

Thank you. Went digging for the Provent spec sheet, couldn't find it.

TurboC5 · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 9:09 pm

Wow. Provent is way cooler than I thought. I might have to get a few of those for all my Diesels.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:46 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Checked the play on the compressor - vertically I can't detect any. Horizontal play, is a good 3/16". Compressor blades are in very good shape. No visible signs of damage. The compressor spins freely without noise - but it does have what seems like excessive horizontal end to end movement. In fact, when running the engine, you can hear the turbo whine and it sounds normal.

Over on the engine intake, the case of the egr air flow valve is weeping oil on the top surface, at the seam where the outer cover joins the main body. Not surprising with the amount of oil loss.

A thorough inspection of the engine pan, transmission to engine seams and anywhere else oil might be leaking comes up dry. Coolant is clean, but oil in the hoses is way over any normal amount. It's liquid engine oil in both hoses.

I'm done inspecting - its going back for repair.

Ranger1,

What was the outcome of this? If you posted already on another thread I missed it.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:14 pm

What do the rules say? How long does Ranger1 have to be missing before we can declare him dead? We may need to raise bail and lawyer money.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Ranger1,

What was the outcome of this? If you posted already on another thread I missed it.

I've been without net access for the last couple of weeks. I was asked on very short notice to work on a project several hundred miles from home and just returned - I take the CRD in next week. Did not have enough time to drop it off before I left town. Will let you know what happens.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:35 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

Ranger1,

What was the outcome of this? If you posted already on another thread I missed it.

I've been without net access for the last couple of weeks. I was asked on very short notice to work on a project several hundred miles from home and just returned - I take the CRD in next week. Did not have enough time to drop it off before I left town. Will let you know what happens.

Short notice and several hundred miles from home - sounds like my job. :wink:

Turbo Seals Leaking

Who is online