dhenderz wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Good Lord... Do I even bother posting?
The story has been told on this whole issue, and my customers are my strongest advocates.
The naysayers to the Model 001 have never used my product or have any reasonable appreciation for how critical proper engine temperature regulation in a modern diesel engine. Some of them still advocate using the inline thermostat option, or use some other gawd-awful re-engineered cooling system circuitry in an effort to out-think what the original engineers of the R428 intended.
I spent the time and the money to properly engineer and market a permanent solution to the cooling system problem of the Jeep Liberty CRD, dhenderz. You can either give it genuine consideration, or you can look at the "other" alternatives.
Just remember one thing, and that is cold running internal combustion engines can have serious reliability issues, especially diesels.
Jeff - thanks for your response/input. But outside of the last sentence I am still struggling to grasp a reason, financial or otherwise, to make any change from OEM. I laid my rationale in the OP. I am not proposing an inline stat or any other configuration. I am saying that from what I've read on this forum, the only 2 reasons to consider making a change from OEM are:
a) longer stat life, motivated presumably by a desire to save money over the long term because of the expense of the OEM assembly
b) higher engine operating temps, again motivated by a desire to save money through an increase in fuel economy (ie: save money on fuel over the long term)
And again, as I stated in the OP - this CRD is still running what certainly appears to be the original stat with 129k on the odo. And I have the service records that appear to confirm this observation. So even if I have to replace it now (which I don't because its working fine), and I get another 100k out of it, that's fine. And given the few miles and driving style of my daughter, I could care less about whether there is a few MPG difference. The difference in cost of fuel for the miles she will put on the Jeep are so small as to be inconsequential.
Understand I am not trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to understand if there is a motivation for making this change/investment beyond the 2 I listed - because those 2 don't have relevance in my calculation of overall value. Frankly if there was a truly important reason to make a change I would do it and make the investment. As a comparison, I made the decision to invest the $350 in ARP studs. And that's because I considered them to be just that - an investment. In the ARP case the investment was in long term reliability for the engine. And the peace of mind of knowing I shouldn't have to tear that far into the engine for a really long time. Changing a $100 stat is a bit of a pain, but seriously its not more than an hour or so in total labor. Even if I assume the stat life to be cut in half (50k), that's 250k miles to break even with a $500 part.
From the various topics I've seen on this topic a new CRD owner would think that dumping the OEM stat was an urgent/critical item that needed to be done ASAP before the engine self destructed. I am not seeing evidence of that being the case. What am I missing here?
It has been the experience of many CRD owners, and the collective experience of most diesel engine technicians, that running a diesel engine at too low an operating temperature can cause damage to the engine
over a long period of time. Diesel engines are by nature most efficient and reliable when they run HOT, especially diesel engines that have pollution control equipment installed.
Nobody has made the claim that the CRD engine will crater in the short term with the use of the O.E. thermostat assembly. The damage caused by a cool running engine is done over a long period of time, due to build up of unburnt pollutants and improperly combusted fuel that take a long time to build up in the engine. Cutting out the pollution control systems takes care of a lot of this problem, but a hotter running engine really helps as well. The evidence of damage to the CRD engine is well documented on this forum, but attributing reliability problems 100% to the EGR valve and the crankcase ventilation system alone is not telling the whole truth.
The O.E. thermostat was designed to open up at 176 degrees Fahrenheit... this was done to fight NOX emissions, and not for peak efficiency, reliability and power output of the engine. So running even a new O.E. thermostat assembly is not great for the CRD engine.
You math is also inaccurate. You are factoring the cost of a Model 001 with the Crown replacement O.E. thermostat, which is even worse than the Mopar replacement unit, ($150.00). I.D. Parts has had nothing but trouble with the Crown made thermostats, and will not even carry them anymore. So for your peace of mind, you should at least be using the genuine Mopar part.
You are not factoring the loss of $$$ with the poor fuel economy. Admittedly this may not be much , especially in warmer climates. Up here in the Great White North, I lost about 30% fuel economy in cold weather when I was running the O.E. thermostat.
You are also not factoring in your time to service the O.E. thermostat when you have to change out the whole thing every time it malfunctions. Is your time worth nothing, dhenderz? Unless you have a professional shop to work in, good luck with replacing an O.E. thermostat in about an hour.
On a minor point, I never claimed the thermostat valve inside the Model 001 will last longer than the O.E. thermostat assembly, (although it should by a wide margin). What I have been saying is the inexpensive valve inside the Model 001 is easily replaced, unlike the entire O.E. thermostat assembly, which is neither cheap or easy to replace. Once properly installed, the Model 001 housing never has to be touched again. There is a difference in my statements here from what you are saying...
"a) longer stat life, motivated presumably by a desire to save money over the long term because of the expense of the OEM assembly"
I may seem like semantics, but I wanted to point out these differences in the interests of being accurate. No thermostat valve will last forever, (although my Model 001 housings might
).
From what I am seeing in your postings here, you are generally under emphasizing the associated problems with a cool running diesel engine. This runs counter to the fact that this problem has been a major subject of discussion on LOSTJEEPS and other forums for years, and there have been various remedies attempted with various degrees of success long before I ever got involved.
Simply put, this subject never would have received this amount of attention if the problem was not serious. Further evidence can be had simply by discussing this issue with your friendly local diesel engine technician, who will probably give you an earful on the hazards of running an diesel engine too cold, again specifically referring to a modern diesel engine with pollution control systems installed on them. Check the factory service manual for the O.E. thermostat opening temperature, and give that spec to the technician.
Finally, how do you know for sure your thermostat is working correctly? The O.E. engine temperature gauge is not accurate. Have you actually measured the engine temperature using and OBDII reader?
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