You are missing the point, flash 7210. He is the one who started this thread asking questions, we are simply answering them for him and correcting his misconceptions. We are not twisting his arm here.

dhenderz:

Are you sorry yet a bout starting this?

Dhenderz: this is what I would do as you will only get the continued line of advertising you are receiving.

Continue to run the OEM thermostat until it fails as I am currently doing. The temperatures of the engine typically runs hotter than the 176F opening temperature that is stated. At that time you will have three good options, buy a new OEM t-stat, buy an HDS 001 T-stat or purchase a new design by Sargeindustries. Mind you that the Sargeindustries T-stat is currently unproven but by the time you need to make a decision it will have significant field time. The fourth option and one that can be used temporarily is the addition of an inline stant. It worked flawlessly for 50K miles for me.

These are the available options and it sounds like you have some time to make a decision. They all take about the same amount of labor time to install except the inline stant which would take significantly less. There is a slight difference in operating temperatures which you should note and be aware of.

Had a thought; what would be the fallacy of running a perfectly fully functioning OEM thermostat that would control warmup via the bypass circuit along with an inline 205 or 210 degree thermostat with bleed hole to raise the operating temperature that everyone seems to want????
Cost would be minimal and benefits the same as other options.
Please don't beat me up; this is a legit question and not meant to downplay Turbo's efforts or great product in any way....

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount
98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve

I was always afraid of the effects of the inline blocking flow in the case that the OEM one failed open and blocked the recirculation channel. You would never know if it had failed either since the inline would continue to regulate heat.

_________________
2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs

The problem is that with a fully functioning OEM thermostat, at about 178 degrees or so the bypass is going to close. With a 205 inline thermostat, what happens to coolant flow while the bypass is closed and the main outlet to the radiator is closed?
How big is the bleed hole?
How many bleed holes?
During this point where the main coolant outlet from the head is blocked, what is happening to the temperatures in the cylinder head?

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

TDF - first, no I am not (yet) sorry that I started the thread. Might get there soon.

This thread is starting to capture more concrete data regarding the drawbacks of the OEM stat and the potential benefit of replacing it - beyond the 2 I listed in the OP. Which by the way is what I indicated was the sole reason I started this thread. To understand what the benefits of changing the OEM stat are if you disregard a) low mileage failures (which it appears does occur but clearly is not inevitable since there are also many reports of them lasting a reasonably long life) and b) the financial benefit of a change in fuel economy (again, my daughter probably drives 20miles per week, the MPG difference is inconsequential to my situation).

You are laying out another potential benefit to the higher operating temp - decreased soot/gunk buildup in the engine and thus a longer life. OK, got it.

First, to address your comment that 'If you are convinced that a low operating temperature only results in poor fuel economy then there is little I can do to convince you otherwise'. What are talking about? Where did I say that I was not convinced? I believe what I said was can someone lay out the other benefits besides fuel economy? Exactly the opposite of what you state. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and contributing to the thought exchange in the thread. It is clear you've done extensive work on this subject. But its a little frustrating when you make statements like this.

Now, on to the benefit you laid out. It does make some sense. And it also makes sense that eliminating the EGR also contributes greatly to this. In my case I made the investment in a weeks stage1+2 and had the entire intake system & cyl head cleaned/rebuilt while it was disassembled. So I am starting with a completely clean intake system/upper end that will not see the degradation caused by the EGR over the coming miles. So perhaps the key question is - has anyone tried to capture/quantify the relative contribution of soot/gunk build up caused by the EGR v. non-optimal (lower) operating temp? Either on this engine or any other diesel? That would be an interesting set of data to study.

And finally, relative your question on how I know the current OEM stat is working properly, I answered that question once on this thread. But again, the engine warms to the point where it has appropriately hot heat. Surely not the precision of an infrared temp on the coolant elbow, but really isn't necessary. If the stat were stuck open the heat would be cool to luke warm at best. And if it were stuck closed we've be talking about en entirely different set of issues - that would be clearly evident, but are not.

[/quote]
(b) the financial benefit of a change in fuel economy (again, my daughter probably drives 20miles per week, the MPG difference is inconsequential to my situation).
[/quote]

I hate to say this but if your daughter is driving only 20 miles per week I don't recommend the CRD nor any other diesel for her. Low mileage use and significant start & stop use will kill this vehicle. It will never get the chance to fully warm up and have extended road time to burn out the moisture & soot from the engine.

You invested in a stage 1+2 to delete the EGR while a tune could have accomplished the same thing...yet you dismiss the value of having your engine at a proper temperature for a vehicle driven 20 miles a week. For a vehicle that is driven that little...I would want to get that engine as warm as possible to evaporate moisture out of the engine.

In my case I had what "appeared" to be a properly functioning thermostat - and it only had ~10,000 miles on it - but it in fact was opening at 167 degrees. The analog gauge showed the needle sitting at the tick mark just left of center.

True, but the tune does not delete all of the excess components in the engine bay and make working on anything on the driver's side of the engine a much more pleasant/easy task.

Here is my take on this : if you plan in keeping the crd for at least 3-5 years or another 100k, get the hds thermostat. If not, you're wasting your money. If you just want to extend its running time by few thousand miles or couple years, get the oem thermostat. Don't go with in-line, it's too risky. My crd, knock on wood, is worth the expense, it's with no rust, engine is healthy, and most of suspension is relatively new.

_________________
2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.

(b) the financial benefit of a change in fuel economy (again, my daughter probably drives 20miles per week, the MPG difference is inconsequential to my situation).
[/quote]

I hate to say this but if your daughter is driving only 20 miles per week I don't recommend the CRD nor any other diesel for her. Low mileage use and significant start & stop use will kill this vehicle. It will never get the chance to fully warm up and have extended road time to burn out the moisture & soot from the engine.[/quote]


I do not often agree with joelukex4, but he is absolutely correct on this. Short trip and stop/go driving is murder on a diesel engine.

dhenderz, you wrote the following:

"First, to address your comment that 'If you are convinced that a low operating temperature only results in poor fuel economy then there is little I can do to convince you otherwise'. What are talking about? Where did I say that I was not convinced? I believe what I said was can someone lay out the other benefits besides fuel economy? Exactly the opposite of what you state. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and contributing to the thought exchange in the thread. It is clear you've done extensive work on this subject. But its a little frustrating when you make statements like this."

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but by the narrative of your writing is seems fairly clear to me that you are already convinced. You stated that you are trying not to be argumentative, and yet you continue to question the facts as I lay them out for you. You are being a bit too sensitive about this statement I made "If you are convinced..." I did write the word "If", after all... chill... dude.

The O.E. thermostat is designed to open up at 176 degrees Fahrenheit. This is simply too cool an operating temperature for long term reliability of a diesel engine. Period. It is considered common knowledge among diesel people, (technicians, engineers, truck drivers, etc.), that running a modern diesel engine at that temperature WILL cause problems. You daughter driving it only 20 miles a week will probably make things worse.

You state the following...

"And finally, relative your question on how I know the current OEM stat is working properly, I answered that question once on this thread. But again, the engine warms to the point where it has appropriately hot heat. Surely not the precision of an infrared temp on the coolant elbow, but really isn't necessary. If the stat were stuck open the heat would be cool to luke warm at best. And if it were stuck closed we've be talking about en entirely different set of issues - that would be clearly evident, but are not."

This statement means absolutely nothing to me, and your insistence that accurate measurement of the engine's temperature is not necessary is totally untrue. You are wrong on two points here...

1) Measuring a diesel engine's temperature by feeling how hot the air is blowing in the cabin is not at all accurate for measuring engine temperature. Diesel engines are very heavy, with much more iron in them than gasoline engines, and therefore they hold a lot of heat when they are at operating temperature. This is why you still get fairly good cabin heat in a diesel vehicle, even if it is running cooler than it should. HEAT is not the same thing as TEMPERATURE, and you are confusing a basic tenet of thermodynamics. The ONLY way to know if your engine is operating at a proper temperature is to accurately measure it.

2) You mentioned "If the stat were stuck open"... This assumes that you consider a proper operating O.E. thermostat to be regulating the CRD engine at an optimal temperature. I vociferously disagree on this. My own personal experiences as a Class 1 professional driver, my experiences as a wrench, and the extensive research I conducted when developing the Model 001 all point to an inescapable conclusion that the 176 degree opening temperature for the O.E. thermostat is simply wrong for optimal operation of a diesel engine. Fuel economy, power, and reliability all suffer when a modern diesel engine runs this cool. The jury has been out on this for years now... all you need to do is start asking around to local diesel engine service shops to confirm this. This is common knowledge, so your following statement....

"So perhaps the key question is - has anyone tried to capture/quantify the relative contribution of soot/gunk build up caused by the EGR v. non-optimal (lower) operating temp? Either on this engine or any other diesel? That would be an interesting set of data to study."

... is unnecessary. I am certain it has already been done. You statement also does not take into account that there are other factors that adversely effect a diesel engine, (or any other internal combustion engine for that matter), when it is running too cool.

1) Fuel delivery is not optimal, (injection is controlled by the engine's computer, and changes to injection parameters are made with temperature of the engine being a factor... more fuel is used at lower engine temperatures). This can possible cause problems outside of poor fuel economy, like fuel dilution in the engine oil.

2) Oil viscosity is not optimal... if it is too cool, it is flowing too thick.

3) On the Liberty CRD, you have a device known as a viscous coolant heater, and it is thermostatically controlled using a clutch like the one in your air conditioning compressor. If the engine is running too cool, the viscous heater is engaged and running constantly. This causes a parasitic drag on the engine, unnecessary wear and tear on the viscous heater, the belt and the pulleys, and can give a false impression that there is more heat in the engine than there really is because the viscous heater is in the same cooling system circuit as the heater core for the cabin.

I would say to sell it and get your money out of it and buy a $1-$2000 civic, corolla, etc if she only drives that many miles. She'd be safer in a car anyhow, just read the statistics on crashes in cars vs other autos (especially SUV's). Jeeps are for offroading or the serious need for 4x4. I drive a little front wheel (2wd) drive car up a BIG mountain that is covered with ice often, studded snow tires work great

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete

TDF - let me take one more shot at this, then it is likely that I am done with this thread or at least your contributions to it. It is growing rather fatiguing having my comments/words getting twisted or outright made up to fit your narrative.

You wrote -

"Perhaps I misunderstand you, but by the narrative of your writing is seems fairly clear to me that you are already convinced. You stated that you are trying not to be argumentative, and yet you continue to question the facts as I lay them out for you."

Exactly how/where do you draw the conclusion that I am already convinced? I have in fact written exactly the opposite. The sole purpose of this thread was to capture data & facts on the subject of the OEM stat and the rationale for replacing them (again, outside of the 2 reasons I have now stated multiple times). On the point of reliability I have agreed there is real world evidence of their premature failure. I have also noted there is similar real world data that they don't all fail prematurely. There are many on the road that have/do survive. That's simply a fact. On the point of improved MPG, I am not disagreeing. I am simply saying (again and again) that for the purposes of this thread and the actual operating conditions of this CRD, I couldn't care less about the MPG. I am not saying it isn't real, just that I don't care and it is not an adequate motivator to make a change. For me there will have to be something beyond these 2 items. And just to be certain I am not offending anyone, I am not saying that either one of these items, either alone or taken together, aren't important enough to warrant the change for other CRD owners. For many these 2 are enough motivation and if they have the $$ should go ahead and do it.


And on the point of whether the CRD is operating at the proper operating temp and my response this it clearly is, you wrote -

"This statement means absolutely nothing to me, and your insistence that accurate measurement of the engine's temperature is not necessary is totally untrue."

Again, where exactly have I 'insisted' that accurate measurement of the engine's temp is not necessary? Really - respond to this thread with a quote from one of my posts where I made this statement.

Beyond that, we need to insure we are using our terms accurately. When I say the engine is operating at the 'proper' temp I am referring to what the Chrysler powertrain engineers designed & intended. I am not making any judgement on whether that temp is best or optimal for diesel engines generally or this CRD specifically. That is a totally different question and one that is worthy of discussion & dialogue. But when the question posed to me was - how do you know the (current) OEM stat is working properly, clearly the baseline is in reference to what Chrysler intended. How could it be anything else if we are asking about the function of the OEM stat?

I get that you have money invested in researching & manufacturing replacement stat housings. I get that you are focused on selling them. But if you cannot simply enumerate the facts on what the new design brings in terms of benefits without having to change words & statements of others to fit your narrative you lose potential buyer's attention and interest.

So far from this thread I have gathered that there are 3 definitive reasons to make the change -

1) Lowered cost of ownership by being able to replace only the stat and not the entire housing when the stat fails

2) Lowered cost of ownership through improved MPG because of a higher operating temp

3) Prolonged engine life through reduced soot build up within the engine because of a higher operating temp


And at the risk of being redundant, I do not consider either #1 or #2 to be essential in my decision making process. So that leaves only #3 as the potential driver for making the change. And in my previous entry I asked whether anyone had any data that might quantify the impact of #3 over the long term, especially if the EGR was already deleted. Unless I am missing something, this is where I think this thread and the collective knowledge of this forum can be valuable and beneficial to all.

If you ask GDE, soot contribution to the OIL and engine internals by the EGR is extremely small. They say that their tunes help with soot control by creating a more complete combustion process through fuel timing, boost control and all sorts of other stuff.

_________________
2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs

Sorry for going a bit off topic here....but I would have been skeptical of the above statement, believing that EGR operation caused a significant contribution to soot in the oil. I bought my CRD with the EGR removed and a do it yourself "hot" tune. The oil turned BLACK fairly soon after oil changes. I opted for the GDE Eco FT tune last summer and the oil has gotten substantially cleaner after a couple oil change intervals.

To get back on topic...perhaps an oil analysis of engines running at 176 degrees vs 203 degrees may shed some light the benefits of a warmer temp?

I think you are right on topic. Interesting info regarding the comparison of the oil condition. I am planning to give GDE a call and gt their eco tune if for no other reason than to get rid of the engine light because of the weeks kit.

Some interesting numbers to digest on the VM 2.8 engine cooling:

Cooling System....................................................................................2800.........3000........3300........3600
Engine H2O Heat - Btu/sec. (kJ/sec.)..........................................................35.7 (37.7) 38.7 [40.8] 45.3 [47.8] 49.5 (52.2)
Engine Radiated Heat - Btu/sec. (kJ/sec.) .................................................. 10.7 (11.3) 11.6 (12.2) 13.6 (14.3) 14.8 (15.6)
Heat Exchanger Minimum Flow
------60˚F Raw H2O - gal./min. (L/min.)...................................................... 4.0 (15) 5.0 (20) 5.5 (21) 6.0 (23)
------95˚F Raw H2O - gal./min. (L/min.)...................................................... 7.7 (29) 8.3 (31) 8.7 (33) 9.0 (34)
Heat Exchanger Maximum Cooling H2O
------Inlet Pressure - lb./in.² (kPa) ................................................................................ 60 (414)
------Flow - gal./min (L/min.) ........................................................................................ 20 (76)
Cooling H2O Supply Bypass
--------Maximum Inlet Pressure - lb./in.² (kPa) ................................................................ 300 (2069)
Thermostat, Start to Open - ˚F (˚C) ............................................................................... 176 (80)
--------------Fully Open - ˚F (˚C) .................................................................................... 194 (90)
Engine Coolant Capacity - qt. (L) .................................................................................. 6.3 (6.0)
Coolant Pressure Cap - lb./in.² (kPa) ............................................................................ 9-10 (62-69)
Maximum Engine H2O Temperature - ˚F (C) ............................................. 210 (99)
Minimum Engine H2O Temperature - ˚F (˚C) .............................................160 (71)

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount
98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve

Those are some very interesting numbers but I cant only makes sense of the last 1/4 of it.

Maximum engine h2o temp, 210F. Makes sense if its just water and thats just 2 deg below boiling. But being under pressure, boiling point would be closer to 230F. So why do they list 210 as max?

Coolant pressure cap, 9-10 psi. Why do ours have a 16psi cap?

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

Those specifications may be for an engine that has to meet a certain standard for NOX pollution control.