REAR MAIN SEAL HELP!

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:03 pm

geordi wrote:

You strong gorilla!

Seriously, I remember you asking me what kind of issues I had with pulling those flex plate bolts... All I did was chuck the Ryobi cordless impact gun at it and each one spun right out with barely 3-5 hits. That torque spec does not seem correct to me if you are trashing the bits like that. It shouldn't be that hard, and those didn't look like stretch bolts to me. They have to have a non-threaded "neck" section that would actually stretch in, I didn't think they did?

This seems like another place where the service manual is referencing things that were changed in the final production model. Just like the book insists (with pictures even!) that we have a wastegate turbo, when we obviously don't.

yeah right, I'm strong like a bean pole!

Well, the threads go right up next to the head, but they are definitely stretching considerably!

I went to NAPA and got a lifetime guaranteed T50, so now all I have to do is drive to NAPA to get another one. Only problem is they only had 1 in stock, so I'll call ahead!

I'm guessing I'll just trash the head with my big impact, but it might be a better way to run them down to 60 degrees. Only problem is that I already have most of them set in red locktite, and they are close. I'm just going to leave them, I've never seen a flywheel with anywhere near this level of torque before, so hopefully with the red locktite and ONLY 100ft lbs or whatever, they will hold. I'll give them days for the locktite to set up, and since this is my personal rig, I don't have to have nightmares about pawning it off on some victim.

What you guys think? I just can't see how torquing these bolts to the point where the head shaft gets bent, which it does, being a "more secure" fastener. I think it's just more prone to break the head off, and offer nothing.

I'm going to see if ARP makes a suitable replacement. They have a ton of bolts on Summit Racing.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:37 pm

I had the same problem trying to torque the flywheel bolts. I tossed the FSM out the window and went with 95lbf and blue locktite. 10,000 miles on and all is well.

thermorex · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:54 pm

If you're talking about flywheel bolts, I would use an impact set at 200-ish ft-lbs and once it starts clunking, let it run for about 2 seconds. I have never seen any shop wasting time with a torque wrench, not saying nobody does, I just didn't see anybody.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:02 pm

Mountainman wrote:

Reviving old thread. Has anyone seriously been able to get 19 ft lbs plus 60 degrees on the flywheel bolts? I was able to get about 50 before the bit started to bend, and then it blew up on the 2nd to the last bolt. Smashed my hands nicely when it let loose lol
I thought they were hard to remove because of some thread locker, but I'm thinking it was actually just about 150 ft lbs of torque. I mean, I've gone through 3 or 4 T50 bits messing with two of these things. Even with heat they are tough to remove. I'm seriously thinking of ordering a box of normal bolts for this job as replacements, because the T50's are getting expensive, and dangerous when they fail. Wouldn't a good grade 8 do the trick? I hope the red locktite doesn't set up over night :banghead:

I'll check again, but I thought the TTY sequence was for the adapter to crank bolts (the torx ones). I thought the flywheel bolts were just a straight torque rating.. I remember having trouble finding the info in the manual also.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:27 pm

I think Mrmopar said they completely left out the +60 degrees in the manual. The bolts I'm think of bolt the flywheel to the adapter.

-Lacabrera Thanks! That's what I'll do on the next one, although I'll run red since it's easy to hit them with a torch if you ever need to remove them. The torch really helped remove them initially.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:30 pm

Mike92104 wrote:

Mountainman wrote:

Reviving old thread. Has anyone seriously been able to get 19 ft lbs plus 60 degrees on the flywheel bolts? I was able to get about 50 before the bit started to bend, and then it blew up on the 2nd to the last bolt. Smashed my hands nicely when it let loose lol
I thought they were hard to remove because of some thread locker, but I'm thinking it was actually just about 150 ft lbs of torque. I mean, I've gone through 3 or 4 T50 bits messing with two of these things. Even with heat they are tough to remove. I'm seriously thinking of ordering a box of normal bolts for this job as replacements, because the T50's are getting expensive, and dangerous when they fail. Wouldn't a good grade 8 do the trick? I hope the red locktite doesn't set up over night :banghead:

I'll check again, but I thought the TTY sequence was for the adapter to crank bolts (the torx ones). I thought the flywheel bolts were just a straight torque rating.. I remember having trouble finding the info in the manual also.

I hope the manual didn't make you set them too light, because it's devoid of the whole procedure. I think I might have done the same on a previous engine, but hopefully the red locktite with keep it happy. See what happens when we try to follow the book!

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:32 pm

Mountainman wrote:

I think Mrmopar said they completely left out the +60 degrees in the manual. The bolts I'm think of bolt the flywheel to the adapter.

-Lacabrera Thanks! That's what I'll do on the next one, although I'll run red since it's easy to hit them with a torch if you ever need to remove them. The torch really helped remove them initially.

I found it in the 2006 manual:

INSTALLATION
NOTE: Do Not lubracate new bolts as they are already coated with an anti-scuff treatment.Align the flex
plate to hub paint marks, where applicable.
1. Install the flex plate hub and hand tighten the fasteners.
2. Tighten each flex plate hub fastener to 50 N·m (37 lbs. ft.) in a clockwise cross sequence.
3. At this point, loosen one flex plate adaptor fastener, and with a torque wrench and angle gauge, tighten the
fastener to 25 N·m (19 lbs. ft.), plus 60 degrees.
4. Perform the above procedure for the remaining flex plate adaptor bolts in a clockwise cross sequence.
5. Install the flex plate locating pin.
6. Install the flex plate to the hub and install the fasteners. Tighten the flex plate fasteners in a cross sequence to
44 N·m (32.5 ft. lbs.).

The flex plate hub is the adapter I referred to which uses the TTY sequence, the flex plate itself is just tightened down to 32.5 ft. lbs.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:33 pm

thermorex wrote:

If you're talking about flywheel bolts, I would use an impact set at 200-ish ft-lbs and once it starts clunking, let it run for about 2 seconds. I have never seen any shop wasting time with a torque wrench, not saying nobody does, I just didn't see anybody.

Good to know, thanks for that. I think this verifies that just get them real tight and call it a day. I wonder if I'm going to run in to any problems with the torque not being even? I got them about 50 degree, or approximately 100 ft lbs :5SHOTS:

You guys think I should pull them, or try to, and reset them to 95 so they are at least even? I get nervous heating them up with the torch repeatedly...

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:36 pm

Mike92104 wrote:

Mountainman wrote:

I think Mrmopar said they completely left out the +60 degrees in the manual. The bolts I'm think of bolt the flywheel to the adapter.

-Lacabrera Thanks! That's what I'll do on the next one, although I'll run red since it's easy to hit them with a torch if you ever need to remove them. The torch really helped remove them initially.

I found it in the 2006 manual:

INSTALLATION
NOTE: Do Not lubracate new bolts as they are already coated with an anti-scuff treatment.Align the flex
plate to hub paint marks, where applicable.
1. Install the flex plate hub and hand tighten the fasteners.
2. Tighten each flex plate hub fastener to 50 N·m (37 lbs. ft.) in a clockwise cross sequence.
3. At this point, loosen one flex plate adaptor fastener, and with a torque wrench and angle gauge, tighten the
fastener to 25 N·m (19 lbs. ft.), plus 60 degrees.
4. Perform the above procedure for the remaining flex plate adaptor bolts in a clockwise cross sequence.
5. Install the flex plate locating pin.
6. Install the flex plate to the hub and install the fasteners. Tighten the flex plate fasteners in a cross sequence to
44 N·m (32.5 ft. lbs.).

The flex plate hub is the adapter I referred to which uses the TTY sequence, the flex plate itself is just tightened down to 32.5 ft. lbs.

ok, now I'm completely confused and need to go reread what Mrmopar said...
I think this part is just too complex for me! lol
I need to pay better attention to exactly what bolts people are referring to.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:39 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

Fasteners holding rear crank support hub to block (5 bolts): 33 ft-lbs / 45.1 N-m

Adapter plate hub to crank shaft (8 bolts): 57 ft-lbs / 78.5 N-m

6x flexplate to hub bolts:
*Step 1: Tighten all fasteners in clockwise cross-pattern to 37 ft-lbs / 50 N-m
*Step 2: One at a time, loosen each fastener then re-tighten to 19 ft-lbs / 25 N-m plus 60 degrees!

There is no need for any thread-locker or other compounds on the bolts.

Ok, so this is wrong? I'm going to have to start drinking again at this rate :lol:

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:48 pm

Mountainman wrote:

MrMopar64 wrote:

Fasteners holding rear crank support hub to block (5 bolts): 33 ft-lbs / 45.1 N-m

Adapter plate hub to crank shaft (8 bolts): 57 ft-lbs / 78.5 N-m

6x flexplate to hub bolts:
*Step 1: Tighten all fasteners in clockwise cross-pattern to 37 ft-lbs / 50 N-m
*Step 2: One at a time, loosen each fastener then re-tighten to 19 ft-lbs / 25 N-m plus 60 degrees!

There is no need for any thread-locker or other compounds on the bolts.

Ok, so this is wrong? I'm going to have to start drinking again at this rate :lol:

It's not agreeing with the manuals. Both 2005 and 2006 say the same thing. Both are listed under Engine/2.8 Liter/Flex Plate/ installation. Page 9-219 (1464) in the 2005 manual. 9-1645 (4162) in the 2006.

Mike

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:04 pm

ok, so I've been going Godzilla tight on bolts that are supposed to be 32.5 :cry:

Well, I guess the last engine I put on the road was right, I read that post for help on the main seal, and then followed the torque specs because they were handy :banghead:

I'll go try to pull those bolts, and it one snaps someone better call me a wambulance! lol, I'm just glad you guys got me going in the right direction before I put the transmission back on. I only want to enjoy this process as few times as is necessary

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:35 pm

Well, so I did the factory spec for the hub for two bolts, and then added a little, looked like about 60 ft/lbs, so I torqued the hub bolts to 65 with some locktite that probably won't set up because I didn't strip the oil, but that's what I'm going with, unless you guys think it's nuts?

How's that for a run on sentence?

My angle gauge is in the mail, and won't be here in time, so I know I couldn't get the 60 degrees on those bolts exact at all, so I figure my torque wrench is a better route.

Now back to the flexplate bolts, and I'll probably just go to 40 for a little insurance, and to flatten out any bent heads. Luckily the locktite hadn't hardened yet :rockon:

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:38 pm

Ok - I was confused by the book too then. But the flex plate bolts (gold torx) didn't feel like just 32ft-lbs to me either, but I guess that is why the impact tossed them right out.

The same impacter removed all the ones UNDER the flex plate too, so I guess those weren't as tight either, but were the ones under the flex plate the 19+60 degree deal?

This is why I stick to the top of the engine, honestly. This is annoyingly complex.

Nick - I'd think you should be OK, I thought locktite could set up with oil too though? Red should be just fine, it isn't like there is anywhere for the components to go other than trying to shear against the bolts... So I wouldn't think there would be enough (or any) rotational force to cause them to back out.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:48 pm

Yup, the bolts behind the flexplate.
Yeah, I'm not sure on the regular off the shelf stuff. When I worked on wind turbines, we had different flavors of red locktite, and some of it said it would set up regardless of oil or "oil compatible" I think. Or, that's at least what I was taught. We had to use the oil compatible stuff for gear boxes and the like.
I'll look up that locktite oil compatibility stuff before the next one I tear down.
That's an interesting thought on those hub bolts. Hopefully it would just cause some bad vibration, and I could shut it down before it wiped crank bearings, TC, and transmission lol

They definitely would come out like the bearing support bolts did on mine and eat the flexplate, since they'd be trapped. hmm

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:53 pm

Since you are there, maybe back them out one at a time and brakekleen and apply fresh red locktite?

Having them back out at all would suck after all that work.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:40 pm

I think if I climb under my Jeep for those bolts again that I'm going to plant a bomb there lol

thermorex · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:10 pm

Mountainman wrote:

I think if I climb under my Jeep for those bolts again that I'm going to plant a bomb there lol

I really don't understand why you're stressing so much, if the bolts are tied, then no worries. You can even put grease on them, if they are torqued enough, they won't back up. You're not planning on going on the moon with the crd, right? Lol.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:11 am

I have no opinion on what torque is correct but offer 2 comments:
1. both the 05 and 06 FSMs are well known for bad data on torque and capacities. Sometimes it's a obvious botched metric to SAE conversion (ex. coolant capacity) but sometimes it's a insanely too high torque (ex. viscous fan drive to engine). T-50 bolts max torque is a bit under 100ft lbs.
2. brake clean or some such is a good idea before using Loctite but I'd use caution with Loctite red. According to Loctite it requires application of 500-550F heat to release using ordinary hand tools; don't know about impact tools.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:41 am

I can speak to that... Impact tools have no problem at all with Locktite Red and breaking loose the heads of bolts. Unfortunately the shaft is a different story. :banghead:

Maybe Blue is a better idea.

REAR MAIN SEAL HELP!

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