Elephant in the room...

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 4:23 am

The Elephant in the room, at least for US CRD owners:

(Achtung! There's a bunch of worms climbing out of a can over here; quick, someone grab a hook)

As I waste yet another eight hours solving another annoying fn air-in-fuel episode, I'm reminded that virtually EVERY other nation in the world has been enjoying TDI versions of other 'similar' 4x4s, landrovers and landcruisers, patrols and troopers, including TDI versions of Detroit vehicles, for decades.

I like my Libby quite a bit, but that doesn't make me blind to reality. The engineering and build-quality of these vehicles is not great. From brittle plastic fuel system components to brittle valves/rockers/torque converters, etc, these are not well-engineered and executed vehicles.

At least in their OEM state, our Libby's are fairly UN-reliable (average <200k lifespan for a TDI???), only 'reasonably' efficient turbo-diesel, notably under-performing 4x4's.

In the US, we've been screwed. Detroit refused to sell us the TDI versions of vehicles they were selling abroad saying "there wasn't enough demand" in the US. Everyone driving a US-market TDI knows that's BS.

So, to satisfy our hunger for a TDI 4x4 we had to settle for what was a legal US production vehicle or else deal with the time, hassle and expense of importing a superior, foreign-market TDI.

Sure, this forum is an amazing resource for improving systems-reliabilty, but the point is that in other countries we'd have had other competitive TDI options. And that decades-old foreign competition in the TDI market has likely led to better vehicles abroad. Vehicles never made available in the US...

I'll probably whine less if I choose to install ECO-Flash/suncoast TC/ARPs+rockers/rear locker/lift, bigger meats/racor/ ETCETERA. But mine just crested 140k, and given the frequency of random valve-rocker horror stories I'm reluctant to invest in 'building' on this particular CRD platform (that said, on a different rig with under 100k...).

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of Liberty CRD owners abroad, and why they chose this vehicle when they had multiple options to buy other comparatively 'superior' TDI 4x4's...

Just remember to dodge the Elephant.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 7:38 am

Dont blame the manufacturers. Blame the EPA.
The EPA has made it too difficult for small diesels to be sold in the US.

I'm pretty sure that Daimler-Chrysler considered the North American Jeep Liberty CRD a failed experiment.
Although that didn't stop them from putting a Mercedes 3.0 diesel in the 07-08 Grand Cherokee.

You can currently buy a Fiat-Chrysler Grand Cherokee with a 3.0 VM diesel. And that same engine is available in the Ram 1500.
Supposedly the same engine will be available in the Wrangler.

You can buy a Chevy Colorado or GMC Canyon with a "Duramax" 2.8L diesel. Which is their version of the VM A428 engine.

The Mercedes GLK250 SUV had a 2.2L twin turbo diesel.

Toyota has already stated that they WILL NOT be selling any diesel versions of their trucks and SUVs in the US. Meeting EPA standards is too much of a hassle and not worth the risk.

Even VW has had a tough time meeting EPA standards :roll:

(EPA lawsuit)

Ford is rumored to be developing a small diesel for their F150.
Maybe if we are lucky Ford will offer their Ranger pickup to us North American customers. Which is available everywhere else in the world with a 5 cylinder turbo diesel engine.

Remember when Mahindra announced that they would be selling their diesel truck/SUV here in the US?
Obviously, that never happened.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 8:56 am

The EPA is the ELEPHANT, and unfortunately it is still growing every day!!!!

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 9:33 am

I know EPA bashing is a fun topic and EPA makes an easy target sometimes but like it or not EPA operates within the laws passed by Congress and signed or not disapproved by the President. One can debate the wisdom of those laws and whether or not EPA regulations comport with those laws BUT those laws and regulations remain legal until repealed or overturned by the courts whether one likes it or not. Some of us remember burning rivers, rampant lead poisoning, "amber" skies due to haze, and other delights of the pre-EPA days but those memories are not fond.

No "other countries having to shut down perfectly good running power plants due to a new EPA regulation" for the rather simple reason those other countries are NOT subject to EPA regulation. However, a cursory Google search, for example, for "europe shuts down coal power plants" brings up numerous examples of running power plants being shut down and not just coal.

Don't even start me on why VW supposedly had a tough time meeting US emissions standards. Hint - check out what technology VW chose to use and "fudge" vs the technology other companies chose to use that works.

Please not excessive flaming.

Dent · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:05 pm **Posts:** 275

Well said! The EPA is not perfect, but if you think the EPA is the evil entity, and corporations are being kept down from acting in our best interest, you need to get out a bit more. Countdown till this thread gets locked...........

papaindigo wrote:

I know EPA bashing is a fun topic and EPA makes an easy target sometimes but like it or not EPA operates within the laws passed by Congress and signed or not disapproved by the President. One can debate the wisdom of those laws and whether or not EPA regulations comport with those laws BUT those laws and regulations remain legal until repealed or overturned by the courts whether one likes it or not. Some of us remember burning rivers, rampant lead poisoning, "amber" skies due to haze, and other delights of the pre-EPA days but those memories are not fond.

No "other countries having to shut down perfectly good running power plants due to a new EPA regulation" for the rather simple reason those other countries are NOT subject to EPA regulation. However, a cursory Google search, for example, for "europe shuts down coal power plants" brings up numerous examples of running power plants being shut down and not just coal.

Don't even start me on why VW supposedly had a tough time meeting US emissions standards. Hint - check out what technology VW chose to use and "fudge" vs the technology other companies chose to use that works.

Please not excessive flaming.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 10:34 am

papaindigo wrote:

I know EPA bashing is a fun topic and EPA makes an easy target sometimes but like it or not EPA operates within the laws passed by Congress and signed or not disapproved by the President. One can debate the wisdom of those laws and whether or not EPA regulations comport with those laws BUT those laws and regulations remain legal until repealed or overturned by the courts whether one likes it or not. Some of us remember burning rivers, rampant lead poisoning, "amber" skies due to haze, and other delights of the pre-EPA days but those memories are not fond.

I agree that the EPA isnt all bad.

I grew up in Southern California, near the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains.
I remember as a kid in the 80's, after a long afternoon playing outside my lungs would hurt.
You knew it was gonna be a bad smog day when you couldn't see the mountains.
Then by the early 90's, those bad days became fewer and fewer and the mountains were always in clear view. So emissions controls were having a positive effect.

But much like how Americans want to keep big government out of their bedrooms and living rooms, many also want to keep them out from under the hood of their automobile.

Technology keeps improving.
Which is why a 2015 Mustang 5.0 GT is cleaner, more efficient, and more powerful than a 1991 Mustang 5.0 GT.
In the mid 2000's, diesel engines went through the same emissions control problems that gassers went through in the late 70's and early 80's.
Recently, emissions controls have gotten a lot better for diesel engines, preserving both their power and efficiency.
Hopefully after a few years of real world use it will all be proven to be a success.

turblediesel · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 12:39 pm

Our "new" low sulfur diesel fuel is still a lot dirtier than diesel fuel in Europe so save some blame for the oil companies. Garbage in, engine longevity gone. Our engines are grit filters.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 1:27 pm

Gypsy62 wrote:

The Elephant in the room, at least for US CRD owners:

(Achtung! There's a bunch of worms climbing out of a can over here; quick, someone grab a hook)

As I waste yet another eight hours solving another annoying fn air-in-fuel episode, I'm reminded that virtually EVERY other nation in the world has been enjoying TDI versions of other 'similar' 4x4s, landrovers and landcruisers, patrols and troopers, including TDI versions of Detroit vehicles, for decades.

I like my Libby quite a bit, but that doesn't make me blind to reality. The engineering and build-quality of these vehicles is not great. From brittle plastic fuel system components to brittle valves/rockers/torque converters, etc, these are not well-engineered and executed vehicles.

At least in their OEM state, our Libby's are fairly UN-reliable (average <200k lifespan for a TDI???), only 'reasonably' efficient turbo-diesel, notably under-performing 4x4's.

In the US, we've been screwed. Detroit refused to sell us the TDI versions of vehicles they were selling abroad saying "there wasn't enough demand" in the US. Everyone driving a US-market TDI knows that's BS.

So, to satisfy our hunger for a TDI 4x4 we had to settle for what was a legal US production vehicle or else deal with the time, hassle and expense of importing a superior, foreign-market TDI.

Sure, this forum is an amazing resource for improving systems-reliabilty, but the point is that in other countries we'd have had other competitive TDI options. And that decades-old foreign competition in the TDI market has likely led to better vehicles abroad. Vehicles never made available in the US...

I'll probably whine less if I choose to install ECO-Flash/suncoast TC/ARPs+rockers/rear locker/lift, bigger meats/racor/ ETCETERA. But mine just crested 140k, and given the frequency of random valve-rocker horror stories I'm reluctant to invest in 'building' on this CRD platform (that said, on a different rig with under 100k...).

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of Liberty CRD owners abroad, and why they chose this vehicle when they had multiple options to buy other comparatively 'superior' TDI 4x4's...

Just remember to dodge the Elephant.

I have always been a lover of the Jeep brand and when the UK started to import them back in around 1992 I was probably one of the first to take a look. For the first couple of years the brand was popular. However this is no longer and second hand Jeeps are half the price of a similar age Land Rover, Nissan Patrol, Toyota Land cruiser etc. Well for me that's good news because you can buy a good one cheap.
Yes many times I say to my self, why did I sell my TDI Nissan Navarra but i would rather spend 2 hours repairing/improving my Jeep than spending it doing some meaningless task.

Rixram · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 1:58 pm

Dent wrote:

Well said! The EPA is not perfect, but if you think the EPA is the evil entity, and corporations are being kept down from acting in our best interest, you need to get out a bit more. Countdown till this thread gets locked...........

papaindigo wrote:

I know EPA bashing is a fun topic and EPA makes an easy target sometimes but like it or not EPA operates within the laws passed by Congress and signed or not disapproved by the President. One can debate the wisdom of those laws and whether or not EPA regulations comport with those laws BUT those laws and regulations remain legal until repealed or overturned by the courts whether one likes it or not. Some of us remember burning rivers, rampant lead poisoning, "amber" skies due to haze, and other delights of the pre-EPA days but those memories are not fond.

No "other countries having to shut down perfectly good running power plants due to a new EPA regulation" for the rather simple reason those other countries are NOT subject to EPA regulation. However, a cursory Google search, for example, for "europe shuts down coal power plants" brings up numerous examples of running power plants being shut down and not just coal.

Don't even start me on why VW supposedly had a tough time meeting US emissions standards. Hint - check out what technology VW chose to use and "fudge" vs the technology other companies chose to use that works.

Please not excessive flaming.

I'm with these guys. I remember not being able to see across a half mile in LA from all the haze and pollution. And although it isn't perfect now, it is a heckuva lot better than it used to be. Thanks EPA.

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 4:04 pm

My main interest in opening this thread was to hear from NON-US jeep drivers, and why they chose a Libby with so many other TDI 4x4's available in their country.
So far, one interesting response from one UK owner.

Otherwise;
The technical information is interesting.
The political opinions are not.

Anyone who has lived in both a large urban and remote rural area of the US (particularly in the past 30 years) is keenly aware of the massive divide that has developed in perspectives and priorities within US culture (main casualty: civil dialogue).

When LA residents say that their air is cleaner than before, they mean it.
300 miles East in the desert, when folks say they don't want the gov't under their hood, they also mean it.

Re EPA-bashing, one salient point to consider: non-US markets were enjoying diesel versions way BEFORE emissions became stricter in the US ('60's, maybe earlier). That's not necessarily saying that emissions has not been an ongoing factor in diesel technology and availability, only to point out that historically-speaking emissions were clearly not the only obstacle to US availability.

Me? I'm just disgusted that we've collectively failed to demand/develop a super-reliable, ultra-capable, mega-efficient, maxi-clean-burning 4x4 SUV.
That's flat-towable.
With 6'2" of rear-cargo 'campability'.
That floats.
And flies.
And has a standard-equipment bowling-ball polisher.
And...

Yes, there's a newer ($$$) wave of TDI 4x4/AWD options, but for under 20k the '05-06 Libby's or '7-8 GC's remain the only game nestled between MX and CA, no? Canada has enjoyed TDI's outta' both ears forever; I'm currently in Mexico and not seeing so many here (probably market-economics).

Back stateside, I was disappointed by the GC. Given the added weight and reduced efficiency, the rear-cargo was barely longer than the Libby (maybe 5'7" comfortably-campable), and compared to the Libby its perimeter-visibility absolutely sucks. The GC obviously gets way higher marks for stock off-road capability. However, add F/R lockers and the Libby goes where the GC goes, no? And gets back without re-fueling...
Must concede that the 3.0 is a true 500k-plus engine.

Priorities are subjective. The GC may be a "fluffier pillow" but interior comfort/finish matters way less to me than efficiency and capability. From diapers to dogs to dive gear, life is going to test a dainty interior.

Very cool to see the continuing list of diesel 4x4 SUV's historically and currently available in the US.

And equally cool to hear from beyond US borders!

geordi · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 4:40 pm

I wasn't around when dirt was being invented, but even in Florida I experienced some of the changes that the EPA brought. My first car was an 83 Lincoln Town Car with the same 5.0 as the Mustangs and such. That boat could cruise on the highway at 70 (channeling Sammy Hagar I can't drive 55!) all day long and get about 23mpg. It was a 4-speed auto, 4000 lb brick. No ABS, no airbags, very few computers, and built like a Sherman Tank. I removed the catalytic off of it, and the result was a smellier car that got a bit better mileage, but made my eyes burn when standing around it idling.

Later on, I eventually ended up buying an 01 Jetta TDI - my first experience with diesel, and this was when the 500-ppm "low sulfur" was the only thing going. Europe had already moved to much cleaner fuels by then I think. a 3100 lb car, again a 4spd auto, and got about 37mpg at 80 on the highway, maybe around 43 at 70. It had ABS and airbags. So in nearly 20 years, the safety had ratcheted up as well as the mileage. It also was a bit smelly even with the catalytic in place... UNTIL the ULSD swap happened. The result of that was that my injection pump got worn out and leaky seals, and cost me $800 to be rebuilt. But none of the cars should ever have that happen again.

If you want to control the emissions or contents of an end product, look at what the ingredients are on the way in - that is the easiest place to make a change for the most benefit. Diesel exhaust was acrid and smelly until the oil companies (with MUCH complaining) were forced to remove the sulfur from the fuel at the refinery level. Instantly, the resulting product is much cleaner.

At the same time, I have no problem with vehicles that are designed to use DEF to chemically convert the exhaust, as long as it doesn't also involve burning yet more fuel to somehow reduce emissions. Treat the exhaust as it is - a separate problem to solve - and let the engineers tune the engine to develop the most power on the least amount of fuel, and you will always have lots less emissions to deal with! Then treat those emissions specifically, with an eye toward economy of scale.

We have a very large problem in this country that is not being solved, but the EPA are just the ones to do it if they can find their nuts and get going: Coal fired power plants. This is again a problem of "if you don't want it coming from the exhaust, don't put it in the fuel!" because coal is NOT a clean source of heat, and I don't think there is much of anything that can be done that would ever make it so.

But, if you look at the outflow of a coal power plant, there is a very large fixed-installation pollution source that doesn't lose any efficiency by being loaded down with emissions equipment wrapped around the tailpipe like a car is. The weight is irrelevant, and you can have a much greater result to the environment by attacking the worst polluters. Cars aren't really it anymore, diesel or gas. We have reached a point of diminishing returns where the air coming out is very nearly cleaner than the air going in!

I saw a statistic a while ago that said that if just ONE coal power plant had its emissions cleaned up to the same level that diesel cars are today required to meet... It would be the same effect on the air of permanently removing 3 million cars from the road. Just one power plant.

There are over 500 coal power stations just in the USA alone. We could all be driving the worst 1970 diesel smokers if they cleaned up just 100 coal power plants, and that is only a 20% reduction of the total number! Of course we aren't going to ever go back to those 1970 diesels (they really were dirty and slow compared to what we have now) but this is a situation of misplaced anger and regulations.

Coal power plants have powerful lobbying groups and even more powerful friends. Their names are Charles and David Koch. The auto-driving public and the diesel trucking industry don't have the same level of organization, and misinformation from the pro-coal lobby likes to keep everyone focused on hating the EPA, when that hatred also serves the interests of the coal people.

Solve a problem (dirty environment) by finding the biggest source and stomping THAT out. Our diesels aren't the problem.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2016 5:30 pm

Geordi, coal plants are not killed because pollution, but because this stupid globalism. Our coal plants are cleaner than any other country side Europe. Mexico, China, other countries are building coal plants that have no filters whatsoever. This is really killing our economy, our energy is very expensive and it's one of the main factors that drive the busineses out of us. If everybody would use cleaner energy, I'd see a point in this, but the most civilized countries in the world close clean power plants and the 3rd world opens highly polluting ones. And of course, we end up breathing also the bad air... Epa is not evil per se, it's a tool used by the evil people to kill western economies.

Billwill · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2016 4:05 am

Ok just to provide a comment from another Overseas Country.

I at first had a Diesel Landrover Freelander to be able to travel through the Game Parks here easier.
This was an underpowered useless and unreliable POS so when I saw pictures of the new Liberty...called the Cherokee to replace the existing Cherokee here I put my name down for the first ones to arrive. The 3.7 L Gasser was totally out of the question as it only came out in automatic and chewed petrol...as we call it here. Fuel is much more expensive here than in the USA!
Also this new CRD was first advertised to have a Mercedes engine installed...when the first CRDs arrived I was surprised to open the engine bay to find some unknown non Mercedes engine installed.....was also supposed to have ABS and rear disk brakes as standard but those only came later.....the Jeep franchise here merely shrugged their shoulders!
So I tried out a few other diesel options with a view to maybe canceling my order for my Jeep....the delivery was taking longer than expected and our local currency was plunging by the day compared to the US Dollar so the price of my ordered KJ was rapidly rising.

The other diesels that I tried were very expensive and did not turn me on...the Mitsubishi Pajero short-wheelbase 3.0 Litre was pretty good but I would have had to buy second hand.

So I waited for my 2002 2.5 CRD Manual Sport to arrive and still have it and have not regreted it at all...will be my last vehicle except for an electric motorised wheelchair sometime in the future. :wink:

As far as general polution here is concerned...SA is one of the worst countries in the world! We have plenty of coal reserves so all of our power plants...except for one old Nuclear plant...are coal fired and cleaning them up is a slow going process...water pollution is also a major problem.

The only improvement I can think of was that as a kid I grew up in the suburbs where in Winter you could hardly see your hand in front of you because everybody was using normal coal to fire up their fireplaces...this was banned so that made a change.
We do now have 10 ppm sulphur diesel available and that is what I try to use whenever possible but when you get stuck behind a smog producing diesel bus or truck using the cheapest 500 ppm diesel fuel available you wander if it is worth bothering!
There are laws here whereby polluting out-of-tune vehicles are supposed to be pulled over and have their exhaust fumes measured but I have seldom seen this law applied...best way to make money here is to rather set up speed tracking laser cameras!

We now have a new "Carbon" tax applied to new vehicles according to their weight but nobody knows where this money is going.

So I think you residents of the USA should be grateful for having the EPA to help clean up your air and water and the Manufacturers and Importers of vehicles must just get their act together to do their bit but of course cleaning up the coal and steel plants and the Fracking for Oil process in the USA is a big political issue, and jobs issue, as is the same here!

Elephant in the room...

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