Why does the word "thermostat" always cause a thread to devolve into a pissing match...

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U.S. Army Retired

Simply because some people can't get it through their heads that sometimes - especially with limited production vehicles - PROPER upgrades cost a lot of money.

The performance of the Model 001 speaks for itself... NOT 1 CUSTOMER of mine has communicated anything but high praise for its quality and function. Some of my customers, like Mountainman, have tried most of the other solutions and found that they are hazardous or simply do not perform in extreme conditions.

Meanwhile, a lot of CRD owners who think its way too expensive are falling all over themselves saying how other solutions to the overcooling problem of the CRD are "just as good". This REALLY pisses me off.

They say this despite the fact that they have made no direct comparisons between my product and the others, and sometimes, (like in the case of dirtmover), make comparisons without having any products at all in their possession.

This is the same general group, (you are an exception to this, flash7210), who advocated for years now that the inline, (upper radiator hose, to those new to this argument), thermostat valve is perfectly fine to use. As several people - at least two of whom are my customers - now attest, this can cause head gasket failures because the cooling system bypass circuit is blocked off when the O.E. thermostat fails. So now these same people move on to another cheap solution, and they are stating the same thing; it is just as good as the Model 001. If their judgement was flawed in recommending the inline thermostat valve, does it not make you question their judgement now??

I spent three years of my life on this specific problem with the CRD, because I know from my own education and experience that proper regulation of an internal combustion engine's temperature is critical to the long term reliability, power production and fuel economy of that engine. This is especially true of diesel engines that rely on high combustion chamber temperatures for proper burning of the fuel... there are no spark plugs here to aid in ignition.

I took the time to consult with engineers on how I should design the Model 001, and then used the best materials and manufacturing methods to achieve a top level product that will not let you down in any circumstance. If, after consulting with the Stant engineer on how to SAFELY raise an engine's temperature that I knew without a doubt that I could use the O.E. housing somehow and be assured that coolant flow would not be restricted... DON'T YOU THINK I WOULD HAVE?

I am well aware that the Model 001 is expensive, and I have done EVERYTHING HUMANLY POSSIBLE to keep costs down. But, given what I learned from the Stant engineer about going larger to increase coolant flow as an offset to running the engine hotter; in the interests of long term reliability and top level performance I saw, and still see to this day, no choice but to go with a completely new housing PROPERLY MATCHED to the size of the Hemi thermostat.

It is well known of the cylinder head and head gasket problems of the CRD engine. All internal combustion engines have to have a properly engineered coolant bypass system for long term reliability. The importance of this dramatically increases with the following factors...

1) Aluminum head on iron block, (aluminum has roughly 2 times the thermal expansion factor as iron).

2) High compression engines, (diesel engines for sure).

3) Boosted engines, (turbocharging or supercharging).

4) High horsepower or torque outputs per given unit if displacement, (torque on the CRD engine).

The CRD engine has all of the above factors, and therefore a properly maintained cooling system and coolant bypass system is CRITICAL to long term health of the engine. Any monkeying around with this system without carefully factoring in all contingencies is foolish. Sure, you can run an inline thermostat valve for years under limited circumstances and perhaps get away with it; there are plenty of 85 year old people who have smoked most of their lives and have not come down with any lung diseases... does this mean you should take up the habit? I think not.

I wanted a product that would not limit the CRD owner to driving in "most" circumstances; I wanted a product that you can be confident driving in ALL circumstances, be it North of the Arctic Circle in Winter, or in Death Valley in the summer, or towing a trailer up a mountain, like Mountainman does. The other so-called solutions cannot say that. WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A JEEP IF YOU CAN'T GO TO ALL OF THESE PLACES BECAUSE YOU CHOSE TO BE CHEAP WITH YOUR JEEP AND USE AN INFERIOR THERMOSTAT SOLUTION?

Flash, I have to apologize for high jacking your thread. I'll stop posting off topic thoughts.

Jeff, I need to add just this: if you ever develop another thermostat for the 3.0 EcoDiesel, I will buy it 100%. I believe in your products without a doubt. EcoDiesel thermostat is not as good as the hds for the crd. I saw that in the winter and in the summer. Crd with the hds holds the temperature to a steady couple degrees variance way better than the stock crd thermostat or the EcoDiesel thermostat. For me, that's a yuuuge (to quote Trump) plus.

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2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.

Sorry, my fault, if I'd taken the time to check the guy's posting history I'd have realised he was likely to turn into a jackass about it and wouldn't have bothered commenting. I'm outta here

COWARD!!! The above is the general response from dickheads like you who do not have anything credible to argue with.

thermorex:

I am unfamiliar with the 3.0 EcoDiesel's thermostat... is it an assembly like the Liberty CRDs? If so, send me a core and let me know if there is room where it mounts to fit a larger assembly.

What are the specific problems with the 3.0 EcoDiesel engine's thermostat?

Maybe I should call you in the near future and discuss the matter at length.

Here's the thing Jeff: I am building my CRD in the next few days - I'm about to pick it up with the replacement block and put all the parts together so I know what I need to order. I am interested in your thermostat, having held it and seen the quality.

BUT YOU ARE BEING A ROYAL JACKARSE and have been so in MANY threads. CHILL THE FUGG OUT! Even your existing customers are less than enthralled about the product purchase... Not because of the product, but because of YOU and having you talk endlessly on the phone at them. Not TO them, AT them. Really dude - I am torn about buying your thermostat or even recommending it to anyone that asks my opinion because of the downside: People will have to come in contact with your personality. Seriously, you need to dial it back a lot.

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Quote from geordi:

Here's the thing Jeff: I am building my CRD in the next few days - I'm about to pick it up with the replacement block and put all the parts together so I know what I need to order. I am interested in your thermostat, having held it and seen the quality.

BUT YOU ARE BEING A ROYAL JACKARSE and have been so in MANY threads. CHILL THE FUGG OUT! Even your existing customers are less than enthralled about the product purchase... Not because of the product, but because of YOU and having you talk endlessly on the phone at them. Not TO them, AT them. Really dude - I am torn about buying your thermostat or even recommending it to anyone that asks my opinion because of the downside: People will have to come in contact with your personality. Seriously, you need to dial it back a lot.[/quote]


So what are you saying, geordi... that you won't purchase my product - acknowledged by my customers as being the best solution available - just because you do not like the fact that I defend it so vigorously? You call me a "JACKARSE" because I contradict those individuals who have dispensed lousy advice, both here and on Facebook? Is this the best you can do... post a drive-by smear of my character, but not make any counter arguments to the points I have made?

I have a right to defend my product whenever it is slurred, offer it up as the best and safest solution to the Liberty CRDs overcooling problem, and enter into discussions regarding the cooling system of the CRD.

You are "torn" about purchasing my Model 001? Well, I am torn selling one to you... the installation you did on juliecracker's CRD is to this day the ONLY time there were problems reported to me. That does not bode well for your skills as a automotive technician. Then you had the gall to complain to me about the instructions being "too detailed", as if providing lots of information is somehow a problem. Everyone else loves my instructions; what's your problem?

I recall you on Facebook defending the use of the inline thermostat, and accusing me of making arguments solely to push up my sales of the Model 001. The inline thermostat option is now generally accepted as being bad advice because it can lead to head gasket failures and overheat situations under heavy loads, (just ask Mountainman). Now you make a living traveling around the U.S. repairing R428 head gasket failures... Ya think maybe there is a conflict of interest here? You call me a JACKARSE; so be it... but I'd rather be a JACKARSE than a HYPOCRITE.

Not at all, it's the response from someone who realises they're dealing with a pig headed jerk who's modus operandi is to take people's comments and twist them around to support your agenda and use personal insults and bullying tactics all in the name of "defending your product". The worst thing you can do with bullies is give them attention.

Looking back at a few of your previous postings you really do come across as a complete twat and I sincerely hope potential customers take the time to read some of your posts to see what what sort of a person they're supporting before buying your product.

I thought you were outta here; come by for another drive-by smear? I post relevant arguments and concerns, you can't seem to come up with anything near a coherent a counter-argument, so you devolve into childish smear tactics.

It won't work ceearedeedriver; people who actually have purchased my product are my best advocates.

Either stick to the topic at hand and make your posts relevant to the issues discussed here, or do what you said you would to and exit this discussion. And, seeing as you are new here, try actually doing some reading of all of the past threads on this topic so you know the WHOLE story, and not just the parts where I am pissed off with some of the members here.

Better yet, give me a call; I will be happy to fill you in on all of the details.

I have not commented on my experience trying to purchase a HDS thermostat but I think it is time.



It quite possibly should speak for itself, except no one could hear it over your incessant rambling. This is the exact reason why I declined to purchase this part for my Jeep and will never purchase it.

Over a year and a half ago I sent a message inquiring about purchasing an HDS thermostat, fully aware I would have to pay up front for a product I may not see for several months.

First there were some private messages about method of payment. All I wanted was a PayPal invoice so I could make the purchase. Then the long rambling voicemails started. They were so long that I never listened to any full message before deleting them. At the time, I was working anywhere from 12 to 16 hours a day, and had no time or interest in having a telephone discussion. We had been assured our phone number was only needed if in the rare case there was a problem and we needed to be contacted in person. Apparently every order was a problem and needed long phone calls.

After about 4-5 phone calls with rambling voicemails, I finally was sent a PayPal invoice. This must have been 1-2 weeks later. By this time, I had decided that I had zero interest in completing this purchase with someone I felt could not help himself from overcomplicating what was a very simple transaction.

Anytime there is a thermostat thread, prepare for an assault of verbal diarrhea if you have an idea or opinion contrary to the self-proclaimed thermostat expert. It has become beyond ridiculous. For a guy relying on recouping his costs for a niche product in a rapidly dwindling market, he goes out of his way to try and alienate potential customers.

I exercised my democratic right and voted no with my wallet.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

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2006 Liberty CRD Limited

Provent @ 43,000 km
SEGR in progress
SAMCO Sport hoses @ 48500 km
Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac LT225/75R16

You are really reaching, WolverineFW... and your arguments simply do not compute. One person's definition of "rambling conversation" is another's definition of someone's attempt to be complete and precise.

In the efforts to be precise and avoid making mistakes, I call most of my customers to make sure everything is absolutely clear. Mistakes and misunderstandings are common to those of us new to internet based financial transactions. You may be quite experienced to using services like PayPal, but at the time of our dealing with each other I most certainly was not. I would also like to point out that PayPal has experienced some major online malfunctions in the past 2 years, so my concerns with getting everything correct were valid.

If you would simply had the common courtesy to return the call after I left the first voicemail, then you not have received any follow-up voicemail messages. I am not a mind reader, and if I do not hear back from you I can only assume that you didn't get the message; telephone services have been known to fail from time to time, after all.

Remember, YOU approached ME to purchase a Model 001; I can only assume that you would welcome a call from me. If you choose to be a jerk and not return a call, how the hell am I supposed to know you have a bug up your butt?!?

I follow the same philosophy of being trying to be complete and precise when I formulate arguments to defend my product. People want to read from me all of reasons why I know my product is the best, so I give them complete and precise answers.

It is typical of those who can not come up with a counter-arguments to fall into your line of thinking. "If I can not come up with a credible counter-argument, then I will just write that my opponent is rambling on, or spouting gibberish. Hell, I can even resort to name-calling."

geordi has tried to pull this crap off on me as well, claiming that my installation instructions are "too complete" and "overly long". Most of my customers have complimented me on my efforts here, and appreciate what I have done. Would he rather I left out some details and perhaps caused some problems with those customers who are unfamiliar with basic automotive repair?

And yes, WolverineFW: I AM the V.M. Motori R428 engine thermostat expert here. I am not a genius, but simply someone who has taken the time to learn all that I can about this one single problem of the Liberty CRD. You spend 3 years of your spare time learning about it, and spend between over $20,000.00 of your personal money in development and equipment, and you can call yourself an expert as well.

Your reasons for not purchasing a Model 001 are simply non-sensical and illogical... you are basing your entire decision on my personality, rather than the quality and function of the product itself. So be it... it wouldn't matter if a Model 001 would save your engine from cooking itself in the desert heat while traveling, you decided to NOT purchase a Model 001 because I didn't hear from you over a period of weeks, and made the mistake of trying to communicate with you to clarify some things.

If you were on dialysis, and I had the only kidney in the world to save your butt, you would probably turn that down, too!

What you "left out" from the package was not the overly long and ridiculous directions for the installation of a product with three bolts, a gasket, and some hose connections.

What you left out were THE ACTUAL BOLTS to attach the thing to the head. If you want to make "drive by smears" of my ability to install things, you might at least bother to mention your own ineptitude in being able to pack a box. Concentrate less on the 15 STAPLES that you felt were needed to protect the thermostat gasket (When IDparts and anyone else I've seen just uses a little ziplock bag) and maybe use your focus on precision to post a parts checklist on your own wall so you ensure that all the parts make it into the box? In your search for any way to over-complicate this process, you nearly created packaging that was impossible to remove without also damaging the thing that the packaging was supposed to protect. Not everyone has a staple remover on their workbench.

If the person you are sending each of these things is smart enough to know that they want it or need it, as you continue to talk down to everyone and try to beat it into their little heads that you are the engineering genius... Then they are probably more than smart enough to be able to actually install the thing! FFS, you send the thing fully assembled anyway, so why the big production about the phone calls?

I have managed to do business with many people now, most of which have paid at least a portion through Paypal. Some of the people that have done this have actually used Paypal for the first time with me, and I still haven't needed to give step-by-step directions to ANYONE. Life just isn't that complicated, or do you really believe that everyone is so much dumber than you are, and they can't possibly figure it out? Give everyone some credit for being able to go about their daily lives without your overly precise directions to "help" them along.

As far as my comments or arguments or anything else you want to try and dredge up again about the in-hose thermostat, I have already made my thoughts clear. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to rehash every comment in every thread. You have attempted to make correlations between usage or not for the non-Jeff thermostat options, and causation of head gasket leaks. Having worked on enough of these with EVERY TYPE of thermostat, not just the in-hose, I can honestly state that I do not see a specific causal relationship that can be pointed to with any reliability. But then, I'm not suffering from confirmation bias where I am trying to prove that something I invented is the end-all and be-all solution.

Could the in-hose be a problem by not flowing enough? Certainly, and I accept that as a definite possibility that could cause overheating under heavy load situations. However when the temperature gauge has never left the center mark, that does seem to eliminate "overheating" as a potential problem causing a head gasket leak. That the temperature gauge hasn't overheated on most of the CRDs I've worked on - regardless of which thermostat they are using - this is the main reason why I have looked elsewhere for issues that could cause the head gaskets to leak. Quite a few have never towed anything or driven under heavy load situations, and yet they have had the same leaks as those that have. Statistically, those circumstances cancel each other, and we are still looking for a commonality.

Even hotspot formation from possible low-flow areas should show themselves - any area (for example, the back side of the cylinder liners) that is excessively hot and not cooled properly would cause localized boiling, and steam pressure. This should show itself as pressure and possible coolant losses, but NOT on the cold engine test. Each of the engines I have worked on has failed the cold engine test before, and passed it after.

Again - each of the gaskets I have resolved has been leaking NO MATTER WHICH THERMOSTAT is in use. I do not find a direct causal relationship because there is not consistency in the circumstances.

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Jeff, the reality is there's no new arguments to make for or against any of the solutions discussed on this forum, they're all out there already and have been repeated many many times. These discussions are easily located using Google search if the thread has not been interfered with as I found out when I went searching for Sarge's original thread earlier this month.

The argument here is not about the pros and cons of different solutions, it's about the way you treat people and the way you forcefully and relentlessly present your product as the ONLY viable solution when everyone knows this isn't the case. It's about the way you trash anyone who tries to discuss any alternatives. It's about the way you accuse people of ripping off your design when they have simply used the same thermostat element as you, a thermostat Chrysler just happens to use in a number of other models they produce! Yes, this is all off topic but it's you that took it off topic like you have with numerous other threads.

You're correct that I'm a new member here but as an original CRD purchaser I've been lurking on and off since mid 2006 and am pretty sure I've read enough to know the "whole story". I've seen many of the bun fights surrounding this topic and you've clearly got nothing new to add since you keep repeating the same old story and making the same unfounded accusations over and over again. The thing is, various different members seem to chip in and out at different times but there's always one common denominator. It's you Jeff. You're the trouble maker, you're the shyte stirrer, you're the one who always has to be right, you're the one who has zero respect for the opinions of anyone who doesn't agree with you, you're the one who always has to have the last word when everyone else has made their point and has grown tired of the discussion. You're the bully.

Well, the really sad thing is there is no denying you have a great product and probably the best built and most suited product currently available. I must admit I do have a touch of skepticism because you have not produced any real data or credible study results to support your claims of efficiency, longevity, temperature eveness etc etc but I can honestly say I've not read anything negative about the quality or performance of your housing either. The only complaint people have is the price but I can also add that I've never even seen anyone suggest that you're not asking a fair price for what you're offering. Everyone appreciates your R&D and production costs are clearly high for this product and nobody believes that you're trying to rip us off. Yes, believe it or not, we are actually smart enough to realise that this is an expensive product to make. When people say it's too expensive they are not commenting on your pricing model but are simply stating they are not in the market for any $500 thermostat. Why can't you accept this or are you just too thick to appreciate that different people have a different set of values and priorities when selecting a product? Every time someone mentions this why do you immediately go apeshit and twist their comment around to make it look like they've accused you of profiteering from us for example with the patronizing and downright hostile response you gave me a few posts ago? This is not what we're saying, we simply don't want to pay $500 for any thermostat when there are other perfectly viable options out there. Yes, we all know that these alternatives are not as good as yours, we all know about their various inadequacies, we all know that there may be efficiency and performance trade-offs and we all know that there may be risks associated with some of these solutions. We are all free, however, to make our own choices and mistakes and we should all be free to discuss these choices without you continually trying to bully us into buying your product. People are also free to choose not to purchase your product for whatever reason they wish be it cost, keeping it stock, challenge and satisfaction of implementing their own solution or they simply don't want to give their custom to a bully.

Although you tell us "people who actually have purchased my product are my best advocates" you clearly don't believe this or else you would keep your big gob shut and let your customers do the selling and promotion on your behalf, a strategy works perfectly well for the other vendors around here. Instead you stomp around the forums alienating other members and putting off potential customers at the same time. Rather than conducting yourself like someone who's trying to sell a well designed quality product that speaks for itself your current behavior can be likened to some dodgy door to door salesman jamming his foot in the door as soon as it's opened and then hard selling and intimidating the customer into purchasing his product. You say you've sold over 100 units yet the number of testimonials I've seen is comparatively small. Have you asked yourself why? I suspect they're happy with your product but don't want to publicly associate themselves with such a douche as you. You've accused members here of trying to smear you when the reality is you are your own worst enemy. Nobody needs to smear you when you're doing a perfectly good job of smearing yourself.

Do yourself a favor, butt out and let your product sell itself and leave alone those who don't want to buy your product to discuss the alternatives among themselves.

Wolverine, that's a very interesting perspective on your attempted purchase. Did he try to sell you a timeshare at the same time? I wonder how many other potential sales he's blown in the same manner?

Geordi, it's interesting to read your rebuttal. Of course we're all smart enough to realise there's always two sides to every story but of course, as we've become accustomed to, Jeff thinks we're stupid enough to fall for being presented only his side. I'm not sure I'd trust final assembly and testing of that housing to someone that can't even be relied on to pack a box properly

Geordi sums it up best here for me. It's a top notch product. I was impressed when I put one on for a guy. But the owner behind it is not to my liking to put it nicely. Let alone shitting up all these threads and sending very disrespectful pm's.

He forgets that customer service and interaction is a big part of business. Maybe you need a business partner Jeff and leave all public relations up to a totally different person

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2005 Crd Silver Limited- arps, rockers, 7v etechno's, egr deleted, v6 airbox, metal cac's. Yeti's stage 2 tune. Euro TC, Ram tcm, pml transmission pan, facet lift pump

I don't think that is even necessary. He keeps telling us that "his customers are his biggest advocates" and "his product speaks for itself" and I acually believe he is correct. The problem is no one can hear what his satisfied customers have got to say 'cause he's shouting so frikkin' loud above them all. He's too busy meddling in the marketing and belittling others with his superior attitude. He's creating so much noise that potential customers can't hear the message. If he would only shut up, people may start to get more of a positive vibe about him and his product. Sheesh, it's not rocket science, all he really has to do is butt out, take the orders, make the product and mail it out.