Your loss, a piece of cardboard is not going to help you.

Instead of parroting what Ceearedeedriver is saying with his gibberish, why don't you do some actual research on your own?

I am taking exception to your postings because they do not make sense, Ceearedeedriver. I am not turning this into a s**t slinging contest -- you are. You mentioned the flammatory words "sticker shock" on purpose to put people off of my product, pure and simple. If you actually took the time to look at what goes into a Model 001, you would see very good value for the money spent.

I will continue to defend my product in the manner I see fit, especially when you, geordi and others continue to darn my product with faint praise. The real question is why do folks like you continue to play the contrarians every time one of my customers posts a positive review of the H.D.S. Model 001? You have not used the Model 001, yet you continue to make comments about it. When you can't find something wrong with it, you decide to attack me.

Oh, and geordi, stop making comments about me attacking you as if you did nothing to deserve it... you drew first blood over a year ago with your B.S. comments on Facebook.

In answer to your questions, I first want to state for the record that I NEVER made the claim that a hotter running engine will lower engine RPMs and I have NEVER made the claim that the Model 001 will do that for you.

I was merely commenting that MushroomMan's experiences with lower engine RPMs at highway speed may possibly be caused by the increased heat of the engine and the rest of the cooling system soaking into the transmission and the transmission fluid just enough to lock up the torque converter. I do know that up here in the Great White North in the coldest weather the transmission will not allow the engine to cruise at its lowest RPM until EVERYTHING is properly warmed up. At -25 degrees, even when the engine is warmed up it will take a few miles before the transmission will fully warm up as well, and the engine will therefore operate at a higher RPM on the highway as the transmission fluid temperature has not yet reached that threshold to lock up the torque converter. A new O.E. thermostat with a 176 degree Fahrenheit thermostat valve verses a failed O.E. thermostat will certainly perform better at helping the transmission to achieve this, but a Model 001 with a 203 degree Hemi valve inside will be even better. A 203 degree valve will allow this to happen in more circumstances and in colder weather than a 176 degree valve ever can.

Think about it, and you will see the logic in my argument. Temperature-wise, 176 degrees to 203 degrees does not seem like much, but the effect of a hot engine soaking into the transmission through the bell housing and the torque converter is a heat factor, not a temperature factor. A 550 lb engine block has a lot more heat to transfer to anywhere at 203 degrees than it does at 176 degrees. The transmission is bolted to the back of the engine... where do you think some of that heat is going to go?

Regarding your question about the time for the engine to heat up to full operating temperature... you are essentially correct that a failed open thermostat valve will cause any engine to take longer to heat up than one that is operational and closed - in this case either an O.E. thermostat assembly or a Model 001 will heat up the engine at about the same amount of time to each valve's respective opening temperature. There are other factors at play, of course, and all of those other factors would have to be the exact same in order for any testing can be made to see how quickly a CRD engine will warm up with an operational O.E. thermostat and an operational Model 001. Those factors would be driving conditions, weather, how much fuel is getting to the engine, etc., etc.

The real question is why are you asking me this silly-assed question, and why are you asking me to perform expensive laboratory testing for something like this that makes virtually no difference in the real world of driving. You complain and whine about how expensive the Model 001 is, and yet you couldn't be happier with increasing my development costs further.

It is NOT the time it takes to get the engine up to operating temperature that matters... as I have just written above, that can change just by working the engine very hard to warm it up quickly, (this is most definitely NOT recommended; I always advocate for a gentle warm-up, and the use of a Webasto heater is even better). It is the operating temperature of the engine once it is fully warmed up that makes a world of difference to fuel economy and reliability.

As I have written many times before, you do not need to take my word for it that a hotter engine temperature than what the O.E. thermostat assembly provides is beneficial... just ask your friendly local diesel technician, or any Professor of Mechanical Engineering at the post-secondary institution of your choice. Better yet, talk to the Engineers at Caterpillar as to why they stopped producing highway tractor engines, or the Engineers at VW as to why they cheated on their pollution control systems.

The operating temperature CRD engine with a properly operating O.E. thermostat assembly is about 176 degrees Fahrenheit, simply because that is the temperature the thermostat valve starts to open; assuming a properly operating cooling system. The operating temperature of a CRD engine with a Model 001 equipped with a 203 degree thermostat valve is about 203 degrees for the same reason, again assuming a properly operating cooling system. No expensive laboratory testing is required here... you can simply test the engine temperatures accurately using an OBDII reader. Take the readings from both CRD engines, the one with the O.E. thermostat and the one with the Model 001, and take them to your chosen expert to choose which reading they would rather see in their vehicle. It's really quite simple.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to have someone help me with this and there is no way I am going to put a good customer of mine through hell I have been through. I am barely making enough selling Model 001 thermostat assemblies to make ends meet on my own.

Some LOSTJEEPS.com members, like NapaBavarian, openly question my costs of operation. I have stated several times both on LOSTJEEPS.com and on Facebook that my cost to produce 1 Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 is about $360.00 CDN. This number does not include my development costs, my own time assembling them or the time I spend on the computer defending my product from the flamers and the trolls. This is the truth, and I have stated before that I am open to having a LOSTJEEPS member check up on my costs of production.

Nobody has taken me up on the offer; perhaps because they do not want to know the truth as they are having more fun slamming me.

I will state for the record that I am sorry I ever trusted LOSTJEEPS members to be fair with me on this project, or that I would be getting a fair deal from Heather Thomas.

Justinmc - I have used the in-line thermostat for about 50K miles. My CRD was running cold with a crapped oem thermostat so I used a 195F stant for about 50K miles until I needed to change my timing belt. At that time because everything was apart and I got a deal on a new OEM thermostat I installed it. 20K later the oem still works and no head damage as of yet. Would I use an in-line again - yes. I would use it until I had a reasonable opportunity to put in a new OEM stat.

Holy crap Jeff. No one here is bashing your thermostat. This is evidence why some good products fail. Not because of quality or function. They lack the right personnel. I mean heck, a guy said he wasn't gonna buy because of "YOU" and somehow you think that is his fault. Lol

_________________
2005 Crd Silver Limited- arps, rockers, 7v etechno's, egr deleted, v6 airbox, metal cac's. Yeti's stage 2 tune. Euro TC, Ram tcm, pml transmission pan, facet lift pump

Thanks, that seems like if it were going to cause head damage it wouldn't take 50K miles to do so. Did you drill a flow through hole in the thermostat? Was it mounted in an aluminum coupling housing?

I assume you are posting about my response to blk05liberty's post. You are not making any sense to me... how did you get the impression that I am blaming this member for anything? I am most certainly not laying fault or blame on this member, and he is free to do as he pleases. I am merely stating for the record that a piece of cardboard will not help him if his thermostat has failed. I am also stating for the record that newbies like blk05liberty and justinmc should do some background reading before drawing conclusions about a product described in this forum or a fellow member. In other words, I am saying that those people who judge me through the eyes of other people who do not like me should really do some independent research.

You are correct that nobody is openly criticizing the Model 001... with the positive responses from my customers that would be a rather silly thing to do, as most of the flamers and trolls on this subject have never even held a Model 001 in their hands, let alone installed or used one. Naked bashing of the Model 001 would be easily exposed for what it really is, which is meaningless mud-slinging. Rather, my detractors are more clever than that. They know they cannot openly criticize the Model 001, so they...

1) ... concentrate on destroying my character. This strategy works rather well, as many people are lazy with their research of other people and would rather "pile on" than actually take the time to find out the truth. You are a prime example of this, jws84_02... In a previous thread you told me to stop promoting my product, (I was an Official Vendor at the time), and claimed what I was doing was wrong. I responded that I was allowed to do so, and pointed out the hypocrisy of your post because you were selling something through your signature. You responded by taking what you had to sell out of your signature and telling me to take my "crap" out as well. You did not even bother to ask LOSTJEEPS.com administration if I was allowed to promote the Model 001 on any Liberty CRD...Love that Torque" thread, (I most definitely was allowed, by the way), you simply assumed I could not. It really is too bad there are members like you that take that attitude. If you called me up sometime I think you would find me to be a decent fellow to know and a passionate guy about making our CRDs last as long as possible.

2) ... make the claim that other so-called solutions are as good or nearly as good as the Model 001. Firstly, this is dishonest because those members making that claim do not have a Model 001 to make comparisons with. Secondly, most of these solutions involve making actual changes to the design of the cooling system, and this is where some real independent laboratory testing must be done to assure that no adverse results occur to the engine. Ironically, geordi has NOT advocated for testing of these alternate methods, but he has insisted that I get testing done with the Model 001, (?!?). He has it all wrong, (and deliberately so, I suspect, because he sees the Model 001 as a threat to his business), because the Model 001 makes absolutely no changes to the design and function of the CRD engine cooling system. It therefore does not require anything more than extensive field testing, which has been successfully completed over 2 years ago.

I am well aware I am not most people's cup of tea... it is the way I am built, the way I am created, the way I am.

People should be judging my product, not me. I am being pilloried for every aspect of my business, not how well the Model 001 works. If I was an established business with a few employees to help me I might take a little more consideration of their complaints, but I am a 1 man operation. I do EVERYTHING except the following...

1) ...carve the housing, the cap, and the hose barbs.

2) ...anodize these parts.

3) ...laser etch the caps.

4) ...cut the custom length studs.

I am the designer, the finisher, the administration, the sales department, advertising and public relations department, the customer service, the assembler, and the shipper. I defy you to find someone who is expert in all of these areas. I have made some mistakes in my sales calls, and have lost a few sales because of this. I have admitted as much.

But I am given no quarter and no refuge from the flamers and the trolls who completely demean my character because of a few sales technique faux pas. The nature of a lot of the complaints about me simply do not compute. I am told that I pack my product too well, and that my instructions are too detailed, (W-T-F!?!?). When I heard these two complaints, I am wondering if someone is pulling a candid camera routine on me. This is kind of like saying your whiskey tastes too good... the complaint simply does not add up.

Maybe you think I should concentrate my efforts on being a smooth and sophisticated sales expert instead of concentrating on making my products the best they can be. Maybe you are right on this point, and that I would get a few more sales that way. That is just not the way I roll, because that is not me.

I thought people on this forum were tired of the smooth talking salesmen that schmooze them into products they purchased and ended up regretting later, or of the the politician who lies through their teeth to get their vote.

I am not that guy... I am not someone who will sell you a less than great product and blow sunshine up your behind to do so. I am not going to tell you that a cheap and easy fix is going to be O.K. when I know it won't be O.K. I have a conscience to live with, thank you. geordi may do that, but I sure as heck will not.

And I will defend my product in the manner I deem as appropriate, because I am tired of dealing with the same clowns over and over who should know better about basic engine design and architecture, but turn a willful blind eye to what is best for the CRD owner. If I truly believe you are wrong on any given subject, I am going to tell you as much in a polite tone. If you keep advocating modifications and upgrades that are harmful to the CRD, I am not going to be so polite in my responses.

Yeah, I understand your logic and it is 100% sound
...but you're twisting and turning and pointing out a corner case when in reality I believe OP was talking about a warmed up engine and driving at highway speed. With a ~1700rpm this normally suggests the TC is locked up.


OK, now we're getting somewhere, that wasn't so hard was it! This is exactly the point I was trying to make.


Yes, of course, the test conditions would need to be duplicated in order to make a valid side by side comparison.


So from my initial responses to OP you've agreed with one of my statements and didn't disagree with the other but pointed out some corner case. Yet you say you went postal because my posting didn't make sense? Now you're not making sense Jeff. The reality is you could have responded to these initial points I made in a mature and responsible manner to provide clarity to OP's review and just left it at that. Instead you chose to focus on the use of the term "sticker shock" intent on turning the thread into yet another "s**t slinging contest". Now, the reality is that anyone that looks at the cost of your product versus the the OE product or any other alternative without delving any further into the details is going to experience at least some degree of sticker shock and start to ask questions about why the price is 3X.


No, it's not silly to ask for proof when you're using "faster warm-up time" as a selling feature. Same goes for any other claims you make in order to sell your product - e.g. temperature stability, reliability, durability, efficiency etc. I've not seen the data to back up any of them! No, I don't expect you to incur the costs of doing any testing whatsoever if you choose not to. Just don't go making claims about your product that you're not at least prepared to back up with proper test data.


Yeah, you keep saying this over and over again. Personally I don't have too much opinion on whether, after all factors are taken into consideration, you're better on balance running at 176F, 203F or some other temperature. Granted, higher temperatures generally mean better efficiency but clearly at some point you get diminishing returns. What I can comment on is that the engineers at Chrysler/VM chose 176F for a reason and none of use here for sure know what this reason was. All we have is your conspiracy theory of collusion with the EPA. Now if you can provide us some proof that this is indeed the case then that's fine but otherwise it's just a theory. And no, some random postings from some random nutjob on an internet forum doesn't count as proof.

The thing is Jeff, you keep pushing the burden of proof on your potential customers to do the research and find the evidence to back up your own claims. If the higher operating temperature is so central to your product you should maybe cite some relevant research and provide documentary evidence to back this claim up. I'm pretty sure the Professor of Mechanical Engineering you reference above has written some papers on the subject so do us all a favor and provide some links to his work.

Now in your latest rant you refer to 2 years extensive field testing performed on your product. Don't forget that this was done at the risk of your customers which, at least in the early days, was with a completely unproven product. Don't forget also that the OE thermostat that you keep dismissing has been designed by professional engineers and field tested for over 10 years in many thousands of vehicles. The only issue with this solution is premature failure. Im not aware of any studies linking using this housing or operating at 176F to premature engine failure. If you have such evidence please provide references. I get that raising the operating temperature is something many desire but Ive yet to be convinced it contributes to the reliability, durability or longevity of our engine given all other possible failure modes.

Yes, 3/32 or 1/8 inch hole is all you need. Two screw clamps. One to hold the radiator hose to the OEM thermostat and a second holding the in-line thermostat as close to the OEM housing as possible. The head of the in-line will actually be inside the OEM thermostat housing. This way the inline will heat up as soon as it can and also so the pressure won't push it into the hose. Some people have said that if it is not clamped they have seen the in-line travel all the way through the radiator hose to the radiator.

The other item that has helped control temperature if you live in the north is a Fia Winter Front. I use it all the time and it is a great addition for adjusting air control.

"Your loss, a piece of cardboard is not going to help you.

Instead of parroting what Ceearedeedriver is saying with his gibberish, why don't you do some actual research on your own?"



Actually, it's your loss. I've done plenty of research on this forum and on other sites. Cardboard will help in the winter time here for the time being. I'll be getting an OEM stat 3 times over for less than 500 bucks. Happy Friday!!!!!!

_________________
I can do a job quick, good, or cheap, pick ONE.


2005 Jeep Liberty CRD

I too think that the engineers had a good reason for choosing a 176F thermostat although I'm really not sure why. But being that this engine existed in one form or another for years before being brought to N. America, I doubt it had to do with emissions controls.
I wonder what temp thermostat the 2.8L Duramax uses?

Faster warmup times and higher operating temps are all relative to local weather conditions and driving conditions. The effects of which will be different during a Edmonton winter vs. a Atlanta summer.

Operator reviews are often vague and subjective.
Example: Operator states that "engine seems to warm up faster now"
Ok, well...
What were the operating conditions for the evaluation?
What were the engine temperatures before the thermostat change and after?
Long term reviews are also very helpful.

A new thermostat or thermostat housing is not always the solution to a cooling system problem.
The radiator should not have any blocked passages.
The coolant should be at the proper ratio and free from contamination.
Cooling fans should provide sufficient airflow and the grille should be free from obstruction.
Coolant flow is also important and flow rate is dependent on engine rpm.
I would like to know how well one thermostat housing flows vs. another, but I have no idea how to test that.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

I had this discussion with TDF in previous topics but here is my thought once again. He has designed a fine product but it is absolutely to expensive for my wallet. When I changed my timing belt I had a new OEM thermostat ready to go. It is working fine. If it fails, I have another one waiting in the wings that I purchased for $50. When I changed my timing belt I had been using an in-line thermostat for almost 50K miles because when I bought the CRD used it already had a failed OEM thermostat in it. After using both the new OEM thermostat and the 195F stant I have these thoughts.

Just because a thermostat opens at 176F does not mean that this is the operating temperature of the vehicle. If this were the case no one on here would be complaining about there vehicle overheating. I will admit that 90% of our driving consists of highway speeds in the Midwest but this is what I have seen. Most of our driving is at greater than 70mph with minor local travel. I have 3 measures for this conclusion.

1. My OEM thermostat sits just a c-hair to the left of center on my temperature gauge. This is at operating temperature. I do use a Fia Winter Front during winter. The only time I have seen it one click below center was last winter idling at 10 below while getting fuel. This would be a time to have the 001 thermostat.
2. When I was using the 195F stant my temperature gauge always sat a c-hair to the left of center. this was the same while idling or running. Temperature independent.
3. While at temperature with the OEM thermostat I took an IR gun and measured the housing. It was at 192F. I would expect some heat loss as the exterior metal should be cooler due to heat loss to the air.

Looking at this data I expect while running at temperature that my engine with a functioning OEM thermostat is probably running in the low to mid 190's F. While idling especially in excessively cold temperatures it is closer to opening temperature of 176F. I do not have an issue with this as most of our driving again is at excessive speed.

I should of known you would reply with endless babble Jeff. The "new" have done their research. All they have to do is search thermostat and see every thread you have jumped in the shytted up.

As far as the squabble me and you had on another thread. If you have to compare me having a part out in my signature to a guy selling a product made from scratch as the same thing then so be it.

I actually run one of your thermostats. I just refuse to deal with you and won't in the future

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2005 Crd Silver Limited- arps, rockers, 7v etechno's, egr deleted, v6 airbox, metal cac's. Yeti's stage 2 tune. Euro TC, Ram tcm, pml transmission pan, facet lift pump

Perfect, thanks for the additional info, that's exactly what I was thinking. Which thermostat did you use?

The one people use is the Stant 13519. Install it with the "pellet" wax motor pointing into the thermostat housing. The easiest way is to place it against the upper thermostat elbow, and ram the hose on until it is back in its normally-installed position. Then double clamp - one on the body of the stant, the other on the factory housing as normal.

https://www.amazon.com/Stant-13519-Ther ... B000C809CE

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Great points you've made, that all sounds very reasonable. I think to test flow one could do a gravity feed with a semi-viscous fluid and time the rate of flow by measuring what volume passes through over a given time. I'm sure there's a more accurate scientific way but that could be a starting point.

Great, thanks for the detailed info and link!

OOO Fia winter front, exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! Definatly getting one of those!

_________________
I can do a job quick, good, or cheap, pick ONE.


2005 Jeep Liberty CRD

I used a Stant 13519 from Ebay. About $10 - $15 shipped. There are other manufacturers.

Could not find the actual temperature numbers for the Chevy diesel, but it looks like they are using a sealed thermostat/housing similar to the Jeep diesel? No other listings found for just a thermostat. This is what it pulls up every time no matter how you query it....

See item No. 4 below
THERMOSTAT HOUSING - 2016 CHEVROLET COLORADO (12642691)

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
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Carter Intank-pmp
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