Just bought Jeep, I think the rockers just failed!

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:18 pm

Yeah, the HG is twice the work, or more with all the block prep, and machine shop runs if you wisely get it tested and resurfaced. Then if you're in that far maybe new exhaust valves.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

Are 2 sets of (204-4706) ARP studs still the correct ones to get?
120 ft-# outside
130 ft-# inside

I have reservations about going through 80% of a head gasket change and not putting it in. Can I do a compression test with bad rockers? I would think that would be fine. Problem is although I have a compression tester for diesels, I don't even want to start the motor again and risk other damage.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:22 pm

You'll have to check the ARP thread for part numbers.
Yes on the compression test, just turn it over to the right position by hand. That's a good idea really just in case there's a bent valve, however unlikely

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

You know, I am pretty sure compression tests are to be done with a warm engine and at full cranking speed. That is what the instructions had been for other motors I had worked on and it might be the same for this one. The numbers might not be worth much otherwise though I suppose it could show a complete or near complete loss of compression in a cylinder.

I am cleaning the hell out of my shop so that this can be done without hassle and with focus. I am even going to add another work bench and shelf section. I am usually a pretty busy Dad and do volunteer work on a tall ship so that soaks up time too. Hoping to have a look at the valves by the end of the weekend.

IF you guys think I should probably just put the ARP studs in without a new gasket (no known leaks as is) then I will probably just do that. I am also doing the Weeks kit, intake cleaning, and glow plugs.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:51 pm

I should urge you to get the diagnostic checks done first, once you have the injectors out. If even one of the intake rockers function on that cylinder, you will get good compression results.
Do the cooling system bleed test also.

Truly, you don't want to replace the head gasket unless it's failed, or you find internal cooling system leaks or a compression test out of spec indicating head or valve damage

Head gaskets are not a component subject to "wearing out" like rockers or Torque To Yield head bolts. They are either good, or failed.
So if they have not failed, installing the studs reinforces the un-failed gasket, and prevents it from failing as it surely would when the original elastic TTY head bolts fatigue and fail.
A failed head bolt is not necessarily broken. They fatigue and lose their ability to maintain proper clamping force from repeated cycles of the aluminum head swelling and contracting with each start - run - shut down cycle

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

I got down to the timing belt this weekend. Good news is I won’t have to consider whether or not I should change the head gasket. The bad news is I will have to. The timing belt looks like it skipped when the valves fudged. There is damage to the teeth on the belt. Starting half way across the tooth and at an angle to the edge the teeth are worn/chewed off. There are rubber shaving in the housing.

I will inspect things further today to look for another explanation to the damage but I will likely need to take the head off to inspect the valves and see if they contacted the pistons. This just keeps getting better and better.

Also, how much oil in the intercooler lines is normal?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:16 am

Valves contacting the pistons is normal for slipping the timing - that is how the rockers break and why the rockers are designed to break. It protects the valves. Other engines are not so lucky. If you screw the timing in a VW TDI, pistons touch valves... And instantly jam them in the head and trash the head as well as possibly the injectors.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

I saw a posting on You Tube where the CRD motor dropped a valve and fried that cylinder.

I do remember hearing that about them (being sacrificial). Won't I still want to take the head off to look at the valves for damage (like the quality of the seal/ring)?

Any idea what the normal amount of oil in the intercooler line is?

FOR ANYONE DOING THIS WORK IN THE FUTURE, THERE IS AN AWESOME SET OF TIMING BELT VIDEOS ON YOUTUBE THAT WILL HELP YOU GET DOWN TO THE TIMING BELT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o_FJpBEKjk

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:54 pm

Quote:

Any idea what the normal amount of oil in the intercooler line is?

Oil in the intercooler and boost hoses is accumulative.
Depends on the condition of the CCV hose, miles driven, were they ever cleaned before, and several other factors.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:06 pm

Science and Energy wrote:

I saw a posting on You Tube where the CRD motor dropped a valve and fried that cylinder.

I do remember hearing that about them (being sacrificial). Won't I still want to take the head off to look at the valves for damage (like the quality of the seal/ring)?

Rockers are sacrificial, not the valves. Doing a compression test is a much better way to know if your valve-seat seal is good. Good = Good. Leaky = Bad. If you WANT to replace the head gasket, go ahead, but IMO if the compression is good, you're far more likely to cause yourself more grief replacing the head gasket vs replacing the bolts with studs. [edit] Post-failure analysis is commonplace, but I've yet to meet anyone who is able to look at a particular valve and know if or when it will break in the future.

Any idea what the normal amount of oil in the intercooler line is?

FOR ANYONE DOING THIS WORK IN THE FUTURE, THERE IS AN AWESOME SET OF TIMING BELT VIDEOS ON YOUTUBE THAT WILL HELP YOU GET DOWN TO THE TIMING BELT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o_FJpBEKjk

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

I was not hoping to perform a séance and sacrifice a glow plug to the auto gods for knowledge of which valve will fail in the future. :twisted:

If a valve hit a piston, I would have thought that the sealing ring/surface would be damaged or misshapen and need reground, lapped, or replaced.

The timing is now likely off guessing from the damaged belt. If I do a compression test what would it show? How would I do it? I thought you were referring to a test where I was looking for a peak pressure to check a cylinder’s over health (using the starter and cranking for 5 sec). I would think bad timing could throw those numbers.

I am now thinking you mean turn the motor (whichever way) and watch how long it takes for a cylinder to bleed down whatever pressure it builds. If so I agree that it would show catastrophic failure in a cylinder (even with the timing fudged) and maybe even light damage. I am not sure; are you?

highironcrd · **Joined:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:52 pm **Posts:** 133

Science and Energy wrote:

So my head is spinning and I am beginning to panic. I have had this thing for less than a week now! :banghead:

The Jeep had hesitation after I started it and a knocking sound. A big loss of power. Black smoke under acceleration.

I drove 17 miles to get home. In the last 1 mile, it started driving a lot better but not normal.

Where do I start. Do I pull the valve cover and see whats going on then?

If the rockers are bad does it end there or did they foul a bunch of other things too?

:cry:

dude just had the same problem lost of power and knocking the hell out of the engine,,turn out to be a faulty injector, hopefully you didn't drop a valve,,the rockers are the fail point for the engine,(the sacrificial lamb if you will) if you run the engine unplug injectors individually and see if its that,.my injector failure was the main reason for my rebuild, and since the diagnosis and prepwork was done by someone proved to be untrustworthy , god only knows if i need to go that far,,but i did , and when all was said and done ,went to start the motor ,black smoke smoke and banging like a monkey on a drum,..found the faulty injector, changed it and wa-la runs like butter,,..also youMAP sensor is very easily bogeyed so check and clean it as well

please call 508 243 2285 if you have any questions and watch out for non-trust worthy mechanic like the bum i had,...i do have a set of rockers with only 30,000 on them if your in a jam, normally 300 new

highironcrd · **Joined:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:52 pm **Posts:** 133

Science and Energy wrote:

Thanks for the advice.

The filter head was replaced by the previous owner and I held the intercooler lines while my wife reved it. They got pretty firm. I know this isn't a technical diagnosis. I'm not sure how I could check for air in the lines from an air leak other than a visual inspection and I don't have a boost gauge. I suppose I could install some clear line after the filter head to look for bubbles. I will also need to check the codes. I had some already because I need to replace some glow plugs so I don't know if there are any new codes yet. The plugs will arrive via mail this week.

There is a notable tap when it isn't running right. I bet one or more of the rockers is all fudged up and seizing/sloppy. The tap is less when it is driving better. I read a quick bit about the debate on oil viscosity, the design of the rocker, and the frequency of the issues. At 115,000 miles I suspect it is my problem.

I have had more smoke than I thought I should. I had a filthy map sensor so I thought that must be it. After I cleaned it, I thought maybe it was better but I still have too much black smoke. The big difference happened right after I started it and stayed that way for 25 minutes of driving. I am guessing a mostly ruined rocker didn't have enough oil and somehow bound up or something and then freed later or shifted to a more functional position in its slop.

I am cleaning my garage/shop for what I consider to be a major undertaking. I will likely finish cleaning tomorrow (I already promised the kids I would take them to see Beauty and the Beast so that is likely all I will have time for). It won't be till Wednesday that I can try and diagnose stuff.

Thanks for the sympathy and offer to help me. I will likely take you up on it. My last diesel was an OM617 Mercedes motor and this is a different animal. I am by Erie, PA. That is Eastern Standard Time.

ANY GOOD WRITE UPS FOR GETTING DOWN TO THE VALVES? It looks like there is a lot involved in that simple task.

black smoke= too much fuel or not enough air,,..if the air side is sound and the map is cleaned,,id bet your fuel injector is on the fritz

highironcrd · **Joined:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:52 pm **Posts:** 133

Ludi Neethling wrote:

I agree with racetracer.

me too based on i just went thru the same thing,,.last week

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

Thanks for the input. I am in the shop now and about to see what happens when i turn the engine over by hand and observe the compression (psi).

I will likely get the injectors tested before I reinstall them. I think I know the rockers are bad since the timing belt is fudged. But I wont know until the valve cover monstrosity is off. I am getting closer. I spent a lot of time getting the horrid EGR off. I like clean air but in this diesel it doesn't work out the way they deployed the tech. Too much soot. They should have at least also installed a bypass oil filter to combat it. I think I'm going to make some type of bypass filter. Anyway, I'll let you know what the compression test is like.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

Well turning the motor by hand on the 2 cylinders nearest the front produced no measurable amount of compression on the diesel gauge. I think I would have to crank the motor with the starter and I dont want to hook a battery up to it with half the wiring harness disconnected since I'm not sure that wont have an ill effect.

Injectors are coming off next.

highironcrd · **Joined:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:52 pm **Posts:** 133

Science and Energy wrote:

I was already thinking about ARP studs while I'm down there. This thing is really stressing my wallet though.

I would have thought injector if it was smoking at idle but I have not seen that. The smoke is black not white (that to me says not a leaky injector) and only occurs during acceleration.

I am guessing then only the rockers will need replaced and maybe the cam shafts if they are messed up (I can't believe I said only).

Nothing else is probably damaged right?

hmmmm wow,..ive a hard time believe the smoke would be caused by anything other than the injector,.i mean evan if you thought the valve may have dropped or your cams are messed up? i mean i had that problem with a guy who faked the timing belt change,..with the motor you must re zero everything,,that guy didn't,, made me smoky and was off by a tooth and a half on the cams,.was just smoky and frumpy, id bet you got a runaway injector,.

highironcrd · **Joined:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:52 pm **Posts:** 133

Science and Energy wrote:

I found this thread describing the cylinder head cover removal and the Injector removal:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=38068&view=previous

Is it agreed that this is a good reference for my 2005?

The bonus is if I go in there and find everything a OK, I won’t worry about their condition anymore (since they have a high failure rate) and the intake manifold with get cleaned. I just got a “weeks” kit to remove the EGR etc. and it will be peace of mind to know it is all clean and will stay clean(ish). I will likely do the elephant trunk mod till I can afford a catch can.

DO I NEED ANY SPECIAL TOOLS?

How would a bad or dirty injector sound? This had a notable sound when it was acting up.

bad injectors sound like the valves are hitting the piston, sounds terrible ,banging like a monkey on a drum and black smoke,,run the motor disconnect the injectors individually ,see if you find the bad one,.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

It doesn't sound that loud like a valve hitting the piston. I suspect my valves are fine but the timing belt wear is concerning. I am going to try and post a picture (haven't done that yet).

Any recommendation on getting the tools to do this job? I found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Liberty-CR ... DQ&vxp=mtr

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:41 am

Science and Energy wrote:

It doesn't sound that loud like a valve hitting the piston. I suspect my valves are fine but the timing belt wear is concerning. I am going to try and post a picture (haven't done that yet).

Any recommendation on getting the tools to do this job? I found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Liberty-CR ... DQ&vxp=mtr

Sasquatch (sasquatchparts.com) rents the actual Miller tools!

Just bought Jeep, I think the rockers just failed!

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